Bible Study Conditional Immortality

[Butch5]

Ok Butch. I still don't see why what Jesus was at the Cross and after resurrection must reflect on what He is now. The refutation for the Gnostics was that Jesus walked in the flesh, died and rose again in the flesh which is what happened. I don't see why His bodily condition after ascention reflects on this because we know He came from a Spirit condition pre incarnate to a flesh position. I think the Gnostic argument was refuted by what Jesus did here on Earth not after He ascended. imo

Hi Agua,
I don't think I'm getting my point across. I think the consensus among Scholars is that John wrote his writings towards the end of the century. For discussion let's say John wrote his epistle in AD 90. Jesus was crucified around AD. 30-33. If we say it was AD 33 then John wrote 57 years after Jesus ascended to the Father. Since John used the perfect tense in 1 John 4:2 he's saying that 57 years after Jesus ascended to the Heaven He is still in the flesh. If Jesus was in Heaven in the flesh for 57 years I don't see any reason to assume that He changed form after John wrote his epistle. I know you had questions about how a flesh body can live in Heaven, I don't know. However, looking at what John said, and what Chessman posted from Paul it seems that it can be done.

The thing is Butch I see that Jesus did everything that was required for reconciling man to God while he was a man. Whatever form He has now doesn't change that in the same way that the form He had pre incarnation doesn't change it. I just read some of Chessman's points and this one certainly has stuick with me.

According to Scripture when one is baptized they are forgiven of their former sins, Peter says,

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. (2Pe 1:9 KJV)

According to John, current and future sins are forgiven when they are confessed.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1Jo 1:9 KJV)

As Chessman pointed out Paul said,

5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, (1Ti 2:5-6 NKJ)

When Paul wrote this Jesus had been in Heaven about 30 years.

If we must confess our sins for them to be forgiven don't we still need that mediator between God and man. Paul said our mediator is "the man" Jesus Christ.





I

'm still not convinced because the reconciliation took place fully while Jesus was a man and His sacrifice is all encompassing from that day forward. ie. all mediation has been accomplished as Calvary. I'm looking at this more closely because I must admit the argument is getting stronger for your position in my mind.

Reconciliation may have taken place, but, what about the promise to David that one from the fruit of his loins would reign on his throne to the ages? To be of the fruit of David's loins Jesus has to e flesh.

The reason I ask is because if we suggest Jesus is currently in his resurrected Body then we must also assume He eats etc atm ?

You're question is valid, however, I don't know the answer or even if we're given the answer.

 

[chessman]

With respect to what earthly bodies are and what they eat and digest and discharge, we have a sample size of billions.

With respect to what a resurrected (glorified) body is; we have a sample size of one. That's not a lot of data. And that one sample is not even here to study. What we know about it is very limited but not null either. Yes, Jesus ate post resurrection. But was it necessary, digested and waste products discharged? IDK. At times He was recognized physically, at times not. Had scares from the past, yet evidently functioned just fine with a hole in His abdomen.

But the data we do have about that one sample clearly indicates new/improved capacites. I'm looking forward to my new body but my guess is that I'll be quite surprised at it's capabilities.

It's interesting to note also: i believe Jesus was raised without blood, yet raised with His flesh and bones (not flesh and blood). He "poured out" His blood.

What in the world (or should I say new world) that means, for me and my new body, IDK. I guess we'll find out.

 

[Deborah13]

With respect to what earthly bodies are and what they eat and digest and discharge, we have a sample size of billions.

With respect to what a resurrected (glorified) body is; we have a sample size of one. That's not a lot of data. And that one sample is not even here to study. What we know about it is very limited but not null either. Yes, Jesus ate post resurrection. But was it necessary, digested and waste products discharged? IDK. At times He was recognized physically, at times not. Had scares from the past, yet evidently functioned just fine with a hole in His abdomen.

But the data we do have about that one sample clearly indicates new/improved capacites. I'm looking forward to my new body but my guess is that I'll be quite surprised at it's capabilities.

It's interesting to note also: i believe Jesus was raised without blood, yet raised with His flesh and bones (not flesh and blood). He "poured out" His blood.

What in the world (or should I say new world) that means, for me and my new body, IDK. I guess we'll find out.

I agree.
This is exactly the point I was making when I said I don't know what form He is in now.

 

[agua.]

Hi Agua,
I don't think I'm getting my point across. I think the consensus among Scholars is that John wrote his writings towards the end of the century. For discussion let's say John wrote his epistle in AD 90. Jesus was crucified around AD. 30-33. If we say it was AD 33 then John wrote 57 years after Jesus ascended to the Father. Since John used the perfect tense in 1 John 4:2 he's saying that 57 years after Jesus ascended to the Heaven He is still in the flesh. If Jesus was in Heaven in the flesh for 57 years I don't see any reason to assume that He changed form after John wrote his epistle. I know you had questions about how a flesh body can live in Heaven, I don't know. However, looking at what John said, and what Chessman posted from Paul it seems that it can be done.

I understand what your saying about the necessity of Jesus still being in his resurrected Body because of the grammatical requirement from John's words which he wrote long after the ascension but I don't think you get my objection or the other possible message John was giving Butch. I'll leave it for now you've given me something to shew on. I don't share this wooden grammar approach ( at this stage ) that this passage must relate specifically to the Body rather than the ongoing implications of the coming/ incarnation.

According to Scripture when one is baptized they are forgiven of their former sins, Peter says,

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. (2Pe 1:9 KJV)

According to John, current and future sins are forgiven when they are confessed.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1Jo 1:9 KJV)

As Chessman pointed out Paul said,

5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, (1Ti 2:5-6 NKJ)

When Paul wrote this Jesus had been in Heaven about 30 years.

If we must confess our sins for them to be forgiven don't we still need that mediator between God and man. Paul said our mediator is "the man" Jesus Christ.

Ok sure. But still when we confess, and are forgiven, it's upon the sacrifice/shed Blood that occurred at Calvary and was a one time event. I suppose I think about when Paul said that if we sin willfully ( which I assume means unrepentantly ) there's no more sacrifice for our sins. He doesn't mean that Jesus didn't die but that we are no longer covered by the one time sacrifice which will cover all sins repented of.

Reconciliation may have taken place, but, what about the promise to David that one from the fruit of his loins would reign on his throne to the ages? To be of the fruit of David's loins Jesus has to e flesh.

I think I've already addressed this Butch. Atm the throne sits vacant ( although claimed since the incarnation ) and has since Zedekiah and Jesus is the rightful King who will return in the flesh to sit on the throne. Do you suggest someone continually sat on the throne after Zedekiah ?

You're question is valid, however, I don't know the answer or even if we're given the answer.

I'm still considering what you've said about the possibility that Heaven is right here as an invisible dimension eg. what Elisha could see in 2Kings 6 and this is very interesting. I like that Yahweh is near.

 

[agua.]

With respect to what earthly bodies are and what they eat and digest and discharge, we have a sample size of billions.

With respect to what a resurrected (glorified) body is; we have a sample size of one. That's not a lot of data. And that one sample is not even here to study. What we know about it is very limited but not null either. Yes, Jesus ate post resurrection. But was it necessary, digested and waste products discharged? IDK. At times He was recognized physically, at times not. Had scares from the past, yet evidently functioned just fine with a hole in His abdomen.

But the data we do have about that one sample clearly indicates new/improved capacites. I'm looking forward to my new body but my guess is that I'll be quite surprised at it's capabilities.

It's interesting to note also: i believe Jesus was raised without blood, yet raised with His flesh and bones (not flesh and blood). He "poured out" His blood.

What in the world (or should I say new world) that means, for me and my new body, IDK. I guess we'll find out.

Well said.

 

[JLB]

Butch said -

According to John, current and future sins are forgiven when they are confessed.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1Jo 1:9 KJV)

Future sins?

Where does John say our future sins will be forgiven.

In order for a sin to be forgiven they must be confessed.



JLB

 

[agua.]

Future sins?

Where does John say our future sins will be forgiven.

In order for a sin to be forgiven they must be confessed.



JLB

That's what Butch said.

"According to John, current and future sins are forgiven when they are confessed.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1Jo 1:9 KJV)"

 

[DRS81]

Future sins?

Where does John say our future sins will be forgiven.

In order for a sin to be forgiven they must be confessed.



JLB

Hi JLB.
When you become born again, past/present/future sins are already forgiven at the cross.
If you sin again after you're born again (which we all do), you confess your sins to (draw closer to God).
Confessing sins for a nonbeliever vs a believer is different.
When a nonbeliever confesses sins, they are accepting Salvation.
When a believer is not confessing sins, he is quenching the spirit. 1 Thess 5:19.

 

[Butch5]

I understand what your saying about the necessity of Jesus still being in his resurrected Body because of the grammatical requirement from John's words which he wrote long after the ascension but I don't think you get my objection or the other possible message John was giving Butch. I'll leave it for now you've given me something to shew on. I don't share this wooden grammar approach ( at this stage ) that this passage must relate specifically to the Body rather than the ongoing implications of the coming/ incarnation.

I think I understand what you're getting at I just don't think that is what John is getting at.

Ok sure. But still when we confess, and are forgiven, it's upon the sacrifice/shed Blood that occurred at Calvary and was a one time event. I suppose I think about when Paul said that if we sin willfully ( which I assume means unrepentantly ) there's no more sacrifice for our sins. He doesn't mean that Jesus didn't die but that we are no longer covered by the one time sacrifice which will cover all sins repented of.

My point in posting this was to say that Jesus is currently making intercession on behalf of the saints. It seems to me that He must do this as a man.

I think I've already addressed this Butch. Atm the throne sits vacant ( although claimed since the incarnation ) and has since Zedekiah and Jesus is the rightful King who will return in the flesh to sit on the throne. Do you suggest someone continually sat on the throne after Zedekiah ?

That's not what I'm suggesting. What I'm getting at is the continuance of Jesus as a man. He came as a man, dies and was resurrected as a man, serves as intercessor as a man, will come again as a man, and reign on David's throne as a man. I just don't see where how He could be changing form.

I'm still considering what you've said about the possibility that Heaven is right here as an invisible dimension eg. what Elisha could see in 2Kings 6 and this is very interesting. I like that Yahweh is near.

That idea was present to me a while back and It seems to me to make more sense than thinking that God is out in space somewhere.

 

[agua.]

Hey Butch I want to thank you for keeping your grace during our discussion and although I don't fully agree with what you've said at this stage you've made a very solid argument. You present as a Christlike teacher mate thanks it's refreshing to see.

 

[Butch5]

Hey Butch I want to thank you for keeping your grace during our discussion and although I don't fully agree with what you've said at this stage you've made a very solid argument. You present as a Christlike teacher mate thanks it's refreshing to see.

Thank you, I appreciate it. It's difficult sometimes because things don't always come across as you intend for them to.

 

[JohnD]

There were some Jewish theologians who gleaned from scripture that the suffering Servant would be the Messiah and that he would be killed for the many. But since they did not interpret the texts in Isaiah 53 and Daniel 9 with the context of all of scripture Job 19:23-27 in particular, they misinterpreted that the Messiah who would live forever was a second Messiah (Messiah Son of David). The suffering Servant Messiah they called Messiah Son of Joseph.

This same kind of misinterpretation occurs when people take only a portion of scripture into consideration or in the case of the eternal outcome of unsaved humanity not considering that human beings are individually a triad (threefold entity consisting of body, soul and spirit). Fire burns flesh so hell is but for a moment physically. The scripture says the ashes of the wicked will be under the soles of our feet (Mal. 4:3). Hell the bottomless pit is apparently in the center of the earth. Spiritually, the flames of hell do not destroy the spirit (Luke 16:19-31).

The only thing that ceases to exist is the soul... the buffer between the two realities that converge in us. When the spirit leaves the body the soul ceases to exist.

So when the lost go to hell / lake of fire their body is burned their soul ceases to exist and their spirit lives on in doom.

 

[Butch5]

There were some Jewish theologians who gleaned from scripture that the suffering Servant would be the Messiah and that he would be killed for the many. But since they did not interpret the texts in Isaiah 53 and Daniel 9 with the context of all of scripture Job 19:23-27 in particular, they misinterpreted that the Messiah who would live forever was a second Messiah (Messiah Son of David). The suffering Servant Messiah they called Messiah Son of Joseph.

This same kind of misinterpretation occurs when people take only a portion of scripture into consideration or in the case of the eternal outcome of unsaved humanity not considering that human beings are individually a triad (threefold entity consisting of body, soul and spirit). Fire burns flesh so hell is but for a moment physically. The scripture says the ashes of the wicked will be under the soles of our feet (Mal. 4:3). Hell the bottomless pit is apparently in the center of the earth. Spiritually, the flames of hell do not destroy the spirit (Luke 16:19-31).

The only thing that ceases to exist is the soul... the buffer between the two realities that converge in us. When the spirit leaves the body the soul ceases to exist.

So when the lost go to hell / lake of fire their body is burned their soul ceases to exist and their spirit lives on in doom.

But Solomon said when man dies the spirit returns to the Lord

 

[TimothyW]

So when the lost go to hell / lake of fire their body is burned their soul ceases to exist and their spirit lives on in doom.

I can't find evidence for this in the Bible.
Can you show me a verse in the Bible that says that the spirits of the lost live forever in doom in hell?
I believe that the lost perish, see John 3:16 (there are many other scriptures which also say this).

 

[JLB]

I can't find evidence for this in the Bible.
Can you show me a verse in the Bible that says that the spirits of the lost live forever in doom in hell?
I believe that the lost perish, see John 3:16 (there are many other scriptures which also say this).

If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." Revelation 14:9-11


Those who take the mark and worship the beast shall be tormented...

• With what shall they be tormented?

Fire and brimstone!

He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone ...

• How long shall the torment last?

the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night,



Other scriptures that support this:

• Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. Revelation 19:20

• The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10

• 41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 26:41,46

The devil and his angels are destined to be cast into everlasting fire to be tormented day and night, as well as those whom Jesus banishes there to suffer the same fate.

• Where does the devil and his angels end up?

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

• Where do those who are cursed end up?

'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels, these will go away into everlasting punishment


JLB

 

[TimothyW]

If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." Revelation 14:9-11


Those who take the mark and worship the beast shall be tormented...

• With what shall they be tormented?

Fire and brimstone!

He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone ...

• How long shall the torment last?

the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night,



Other scriptures that support this:

• Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. Revelation 19:20

• The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10

• 41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 26:41,46

The devil and his angels are destined to be cast into everlasting fire to be tormented day and night, as well as those whom Jesus banishes there to suffer the same fate.

• Where does the devil and his angels end up?

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

• Where do those who are cursed end up?

'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels, these will go away into everlasting punishment


JLB

None of that says that the spirits of the lost live on for ever in doom in hell.

According to the Bible, the lost will perish.

 

[GrannyJ]

I find the original topic of Conditional Immortality extremely interesting. Doulos, you said a while back that you had more scriptures to cover on this topic. I hope you will do so; I think the discussion is important and relevant.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I find the original topic of Conditional Immortality extremely interesting. Doulos, you said a while back that you had more scriptures to cover on this topic. I hope you will do so; I think the discussion is important and relevant.

Hi GrannyJ,

I appreciate the kind words, and I apologize that I didn't get around to covering more of the Scriptures on the topic. I will cover some more right now for you, since you have expressed interest.

I think it is important to stress the idea of immortality, and how it is conditional. Most Christians have supposed that we have an immortal soul that is innately eternal. This idea however cannot be traced to Scripture, which teaches this.

who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen. 1 Timothy 6:16 (ESV)

Note that the Greek word used here is "athanasian" which literally means "without death," rather than the usual term "aphtharsian" which denotes incorruptability, flesh that is not subject to aging and dying. The term used here then describes not a physical being, but a spiritual being, namely God who is said to be the only one who possesses immortality. This naturally means that no one else has this attribute.

If I were to say, "Tom Cruise is the only actor with the ability to make women weep with a glance," this would naturally exclude the possibility of other actors having that attribute. Just to give an example to get my point across.

Now, in what way will believers be immortal? It will not be in some ethereal and corporeal ghost like existence, where we float around in some cloud. Rather, we will be raised to new glorified bodies with the coming of the Risen Savior. These glorified bodies described in 1 Corinthians 15 are descriptions not of the wicked, who are indeed raised, but of the righteous believers in Christ who have been conformed to the image of God's Son. Thus fulfilling the promise that God made through John, "when we see him, we will be like him." The teaching of the resurrection has been sadly consigned by most churches to Easter weekend, and so many just see it as proof that our sins were forgiven and that Jesus is God.

God has a bigger vision and a more central place in the gospel for resurrection, and the doctrine of Conditional Immortality places it front and center. That Jesus overcame death, sin, and evil on the Cross and in it's place brought life. That which had corrupted God's good creation and subjected to futility was brought to nothing on the Cross in order that God might bring his glorious kingdom and make all things new. Starting with His people whom he has given his Holy Spirit as a down payment of that future inheritance (the New Heavens and New Earth; the world), so that we might be ambassadors of reconciliation to bring God's kingdom with us where ever we go.

In Conditional Immortality, God is rescuing his creation, and will not perpetuate the existence of evil, but will destroy it once and for all so that in all of God's creation, peace and righteousness shall reign forever. This my friend, is good news indeed!

So to sum up Conditional Immortality. We who believe will receive immortal glorified bodies (not existing as immortal spirits), which means that immortality and eternal life are conditional upon faith in Jesus and is not an innate human condition. Therefore, those who do not believe will perish/die, as a result of their sins because the wrath of God remains upon them (See John 3:16 and John 3:36).

Now, let's address a text commonly used by those of the ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) position.

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:2 (ESV)

This text is a reference to the resurrections, that some will awake from death (the OT commonly uses sleep as an analogy for death), to everlasting life/immortality, while others to shame and everlasting contempt. Contempt here means the "state of being despised," and it not an emotion that the persons experience themselves, but rather what others feel towards them. Thus, it does not require the continued existence of the person. What it does require, is that the memory of the person remains forever. That by their deeds they will be held in shame and despised for all eternity.

Think of Hitler for a moment, he no longer lives, but he is held by those who live with such shame and scorn. This is a picture of what I believe this passage means, as both do not awaken to life that lasts forever, only one of these groups does. Hence this passage is a good example of Conditional Immortality

I'm a little limited for time right now, so I'll do another post soon.

 

[JLB]

None of that says that the spirits of the lost live on for ever in doom in hell.

According to the Bible, the lost will perish.

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Tormented day and night forever and ever!

I"m pretty sure tormented means Tormented!

Forever means forever.

Tormented forever means just exactly what it says!

Tormented forever!

Written in plain and clear irrefutable words with a warning!

For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-19

 

[agua.]

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Tormented day and night forever and ever!

I"m pretty sure tormented means Tormented!

Forever means forever.

Tormented forever means just exactly what it says!

Tormented forever!

Written in plain and clear irrefutable words with a warning!

For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-19

Written in plain and clear irrefutable words with a warning!

Alanis Morissette comes to mind :D