Bible Study Conditional Immortality

[TimothyW]

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Tormented day and night forever and ever!

I"m pretty sure tormented means Tormented!

Forever means forever.

Tormented forever means just exactly what it says!

Tormented forever!

Written in plain and clear irrefutable words with a warning!

For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-19

So don't add to the words of Revelation 20:10.
Who was tormented? The devil.
Who else?
The Beast and the False Prophet.

Does it say that all of the lost will be tormented day and night forever and ever?
Would you like to add that to the Book of Revelation?
As you say, there is a warning to anyone who adds "And also all of the lost will be tormented day and night forever along with the devil, the beast and the false prophet".

 

[turnorburn]

Say Timothy do you know who/what Jesus is talking about when He talks about the sheep and the goats?

Thanks..

tob

 

[jeff77]

So don't add to the words of Revelation 20:10.
Who was tormented? The devil.
Who else?
The Beast and the False Prophet.

Does it say that all of the lost will be tormented day and night forever and ever?
Would you like to add that to the Book of Revelation?
As you say, there is a warning to anyone who adds "And also all of the lost will be tormented day and night forever along with the devil, the beast and the false prophet".

What about in Revelation 14:11 where it says the ones who worship the beast and it's image? Who are they?

 

[reba]

2.4: . . . Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice. Staff

Not necessarily directed at the last poster...

 

[TimothyW]

Say Timothy do you know who/what Jesus is talking about when He talks about the sheep and the goats?

Thanks..

tob

I believe that the parable of the sheep and goats is talking about the final judgment. Some (the sheep) receive eternal life and are welcomed into God's Kingdom. Others (the goats) do not receive eternal life (because the parable says only the righteous receive eternal life), and the "goats" are sent into the eternal fire (see verse 41) where they are consumed by the fire. This parable has the same meaning as the parable of the wheat and the chaff. The wheat is gathered into the barn and the chaff is destroyed by burning it up. (Matthew 3:12)
Just as chaff is not kept lying around the farm for the farmer to torment whenever he feels like it, the lost are not kept alive somewhere being tormented alive forever while they are dead. The lost perish, just as the Bible says. Those who do not receive eternal life from Christ will not have eternal life, not in heaven or on earth, and not in hell being tormented alive forever.

What about in Revelation 14:11 where it says the ones who worship the beast and it's image? Who are they?

It appears that they are the ones who worship the beast and receive the mark of his name.
I don't know who they symbolize in the Book of Revelation. Revelation 14:11 doesn't say that they are tormented forever. It says "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever".
I don't want to speculate about what this means since JLB promised me that all the plagues of the Book of Revelation would come down on me if I did. But it certainly would be adding to the Book of Revelation to claim that "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever" actually means that the torment goes on forever and ever. It doesn't say that, so it is not proof that the lost are not destroyed even if it is read literally. And I'm also not convinced that that a strict literal reading of the Book of Revelation is the best way to understand what John of Patmos is saying.

According to John 3:16, the lost perish.
According to Jesus in Matthew 7:13 and Matthew 10:28, the lost are destroyed in Gehenna.

 

[GrannyJ]

Thanks Doulos. It does seem very clear that only God is innately immortal.

Just for some background as to where I'm at on this subject: I sometimes like to take a topic and study it, initially without reference to anyone else's teaching on the subject and with an open mind, using only a Bible and a concordance. Then go deeper into it and look at other people's views and other reference material. Not long ago I took Hell as my subject, and surprised myself by ending up with views very much akin to Conditional Immortality, although at that time I'd never heard of the doctrine.

There are still a few things that confuse me, so I was particularly glad to find this study on CF.

Thanks for the time you've spent putting it together.

 

[turnorburn]

I wonder if its Satan that stands at the gates of hell to administer that final blow, the blow that renders you unconscious for all eternity, the world you enter when you just fall asleep never to wake again.. I guess that means the devil has nothing to worry about as well? This might be the reason so many people choose to say, why should i repent the lights will just be turned off.. I'll bow out of this thread it has nothing to do with the Gospel of Jesus Christ..

tob

 

[JLB]

So don't add to the words of Revelation 20:10.
Who was tormented? The devil.
Who else?
The Beast and the False Prophet.

Does it say that all of the lost will be tormented day and night forever and ever?
Would you like to add that to the Book of Revelation?
As you say, there is a warning to anyone who adds "And also all of the lost will be tormented day and night forever along with the devil, the beast and the false prophet".

The false prophet is a human.

In addition Jesus sentenced those on His left hand to everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Also -

He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." Revelation 14:9-11

Please don't deny or add to what the book of Revelation says.

Those that take the mark of the beast.
The devil ( and his angels )
The false prophet
The beast.

Tormented day and night.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I wonder if its Satan that stands at the gates of hell to administer that final blow, the blow that renders you unconscious for all eternity, the world you enter when you just fall asleep never to wake again.. I guess that means the devil has nothing to worry about as well? This might be the reason so many people choose to say, why should i repent the lights will just be turned off.. I'll bow out of this thread it has nothing to do with the Gospel of Jesus Christ..

tob

:amen

 

[JLB]

I believe that the parable of the sheep and goats is talking about the final judgment. Some (the sheep) receive eternal life and are welcomed into God's Kingdom. Others (the goats) do not receive eternal life (because the parable says only the righteous receive eternal life), and the "goats" are sent into the eternal fire (see verse 41) where they are consumed by the fire. This parable has the same meaning as the parable of the wheat and the chaff. The wheat is gathered into the barn and the chaff is destroyed by burning it up. (Matthew 3:12)
Just as chaff is not kept lying around the farm for the farmer to torment whenever he feels like it, the lost are not kept alive somewhere being tormented alive forever while they are dead. The lost perish, just as the Bible says. Those who do not receive eternal life from Christ will not have eternal life, not in heaven or on earth, and not in hell being tormented alive forever.


It appears that they are the ones who worship the beast and receive the mark of his name.
I don't know who they symbolize in the Book of Revelation. Revelation 14:11 doesn't say that they are tormented forever. It says "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever".
I don't want to speculate about what this means since JLB promised me that all the plagues of the Book of Revelation would come down on me if I did. But it certainly would be adding to the Book of Revelation to claim that "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever" actually means that the torment goes on forever and ever. It doesn't say that, so it is not proof that the lost are not destroyed even if it is read literally. And I'm also not convinced that that a strict literal reading of the Book of Revelation is the best way to understand what John of Patmos is saying.

According to John 3:16, the lost perish.
According to Jesus in Matthew 7:13 and Matthew 10:28, the lost are destroyed in Gehenna.

The good news is God Loves us so much that He gave His only begotten Son to die for us.

You are among those who believe, as you are a child of God.

God bless you Timothy.

 

[TimothyW]

I wonder if its Satan that stands at the gates of hell to administer that final blow, the blow that renders you unconscious for all eternity, the world you enter when you just fall asleep never to wake again.. I guess that means the devil has nothing to worry about as well? This might be the reason so many people choose to say, why should i repent the lights will just be turned off.. I'll bow out of this thread it has nothing to do with the Gospel of Jesus Christ..

tob

Nice.
Whatever.
Death is a picnic for everyone involved.

 

[agua.]

The false prophet is a human.

In addition Jesus sentenced those on His left hand to everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Also -

He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." Revelation 14:9-11

Please don't deny or add to what the book of Revelation says.

Those that take the mark of the beast.
The devil ( and his angels )
The false prophet
The beast.

Tormented day and night.


JLB

The false prophet is a human.

There's an interesting thing about the false prophet we don't usually think about.

Rev 16:13-14 KJV And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. (14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

It seems the false prophet may be a man possessed by a devil.

 

[digging]

I wonder if its Satan that stands at the gates of hell to administer that final blow, the blow that renders you unconscious for all eternity, the world you enter when you just fall asleep never to wake again.. I guess that means the devil has nothing to worry about as well? This might be the reason so many people choose to say, why should i repent the lights will just be turned off.. I'll bow out of this thread it has nothing to do with the Gospel of Jesus Christ..

tob

I gives my heart a pain to read what you just said. IF fear of punishment was so effective every Jew should have been 100% faithful.

I sometimes wonder that Christians that argue in defense of something so negative that they have linked to their faith in their minds perhaps also have other stories they tell themselves that are built upon condemnation and suffering of others. How many times I have seen some believes develop a superiority story of how special and beloved they are to God, but all those 'other people' are lost and are going to hell.....

Digging

 

[agua.]

I gives my heart a pain to read what you just said. IF fear of punishment was so effective every Jew should have been 100% faithful.

I sometimes wonder that Christians that argue in defense of something so negative that they have linked to their faith in their minds perhaps also have other stories they tell themselves that are built upon condemnation and suffering of others. How many times I have seen some believes develop a superiority story of how special and beloved they are to God, but all those 'other people' are lost and are going to hell.....

Digging

I have noticed Digging that the ECT people on this site seem to be the ones who use personal insults in their argument most often. I think this is slowly changing though and I don't blame them for being passionate about what they've been taught.

 

[TimothyW]

I wonder if its Satan that stands at the gates of hell to administer that final blow, the blow that renders you unconscious for all eternity, the world you enter when you just fall asleep never to wake again.. I guess that means the devil has nothing to worry about as well? This might be the reason so many people choose to say, why should i repent the lights will just be turned off.. I'll bow out of this thread it has nothing to do with the Gospel of Jesus Christ..

tob

Let's see just who is rewriting the gospel and who is not, okay?
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."
I believe that the lost actually perish and the saved have eternal life.

You seem to have rewritten this to "whoever believes in him should have eternal life in heaven, and everyone else will have eternal life in hell being tormented alive forever and nobody actually perishes".

You ask
Why should I repent if the lights will just be turned off? Well, first of all, that is not my belief. I believe that the wages of sin is death, the wages of sin is not "having your lights shut off by the power company." But by all means, if repentance is distasteful for you, don't repent. All that will happen to you is you will perish and you won't receive eternal life with Jesus Christ. If that is not a problem for you, knock yourself out. Party on, Eat, Drink and be merry. And lose out on eternal life.

I believe what the Bible says and I don't believe your made up story.

 

[JLB]

I gives my heart a pain to read what you just said. IF fear of punishment was so effective every Jew should have been 100% faithful.

I sometimes wonder that Christians that argue in defense of something so negative that they have linked to their faith in their minds perhaps also have other stories they tell themselves that are built upon condemnation and suffering of others. How many times I have seen some believes develop a superiority story of how special and beloved they are to God, but all those 'other people' are lost and are going to hell.....

Digging

I appreciate your heart and compassion.

Please consider that I for one, link my faith to Jesus and His words.

I believe what He says and teaches whether I like it or not.

The fear of the Lord is a good thing.

The scriptures says -

The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life to turn one away from the snares of death.

When Jesus says to fear the One who can destroy your body and soul in hell, then I believe Him.

If Jesus says the wicked do into everlasting fire, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, then i believe Him.

We all have the choice to believe or not believe what the scriptures teach.



Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.


JLB

 

[jeff77]

I have noticed Digging that the ECT people on this site seem to be the ones who use personal insults in their argument most often. I think this is slowly changing though and I don't blame them for being passionate about what they've been taught.

I think the reason for the ECT people being so passionate is that anything less than eternal torture in hell makes Christ sacrifice seem unjust. I know that Christ is not suffering eternal torture in hell right now but he was not annihilated either. So that tells me that his value as compared to us is so significant that he didn't have to spend anymore than the amount of time he was there to equate for our sins. There are better ways that ECTers could use to get their point across without sounding insulting though.

 

[WIP]

There are better ways that ECTers could use to get their point across without sounding insulting though.

Honestly, from following threads on this topic, this goes both ways. Historically, threads on this topic usually come to a point where we are forced to lock them down because of it. What I think happens based on what I see in the discussions is we start out discussing the topic in civil manner but eventually it basically becomes each side repeating themselves over and over with neither position willing to concede until frustration sets in and then things become more hostile.

 

[Chopper]

Honestly, from following threads on this topic, this goes both ways. Historically, threads on this topic usually come to a point where we are forced to lock them down because of it. What I think happens based on what I see in the discussions is we start out discussing the topic in civil manner but eventually it basically becomes each side repeating themselves over and over with neither position willing to concede until frustration sets in and then things become more hostile.

I agree WIP. Because of so much back and forth, I'm unsure of what position to take. There are valid points on both sides. I certainly appreciate how this thread started and both sides very well presented. Now comes out the fangs so, no thanks. I'm through posting....I will digest all the info, pray, and decide how I believe.

 

[agua.]

I think the reason for the ECT people being so passionate is that anything less than eternal torture in hell makes Christ sacrifice seem unjust. I know that Christ is not suffering eternal torture in hell right now but he was not annihilated either. So that tells me that his value as compared to us is so significant that he didn't have to spend anymore than the amount of time he was there to equate for our sins. There are better ways that ECTers could use to get their point across without sounding insulting though.

I don't get how you think anything less than eternal torture makes Jesus' sacrifice unjust. I mean Jesus died to redeem us not to condemn us is that right ? The condemnation part is because of our rebellion and separation from Yahweh.

Anyways I reckon it would be quite simple to stop the insults by locking out a poster who resorts to insult. It might cut down the post count though :D