Bible Study Conditional Immortality

[jeff77]

I don't get how you think anything less than eternal torture makes Jesus' sacrifice unjust. I mean Jesus died to redeem us not to condemn us is that right ? The condemnation part is because of our rebellion and separation from Yahweh.

Anyways I reckon it would be quite simple to stop the insults by locking out a poster who resorts to insult. It might cut down the post count though :biggrin

Yeah, I think I worded that wrong. I mean some ECTer's will say that annihilation makes Christ sacrifice on the cross of no effect. I agree Jesus came to redeem us. I don't know everything about either doctrine I come here to learn. I apologize if I have ever said anything insulting. It was never my intention.

 

[agua.]

Yeah, I think I worded that wrong. I mean some ECTer's will say that annihilation makes Christ sacrifice on the cross of no effect. I agree Jesus came to redeem us. I don't know everything about either doctrine I come here to learn. I apologize if I have ever said anything insulting. It was never my intention.

I mean some ECTer's will say that annihilation makes Christ sacrifice on the cross of no effect.

Yeah they do. I suppose it's better than the ol "lie from the pit of hell" :D

 

[digging]

I'm not trying to change the subject here but I want to talk about how much our culture has become fear based. The very foundation of civil order is fear based. I'll give an example.

Why do millions people all over America pay rent, often which they feel is to high? Because if they fail to pay the demanded amounts they are in danger of being evicted by force and end up homeless. This is just one of many, many examples. At this time society is controlled by the constant underlying possibility of violence against ourselves, thus fear. Fear of 'breaking the law'.....even if the law is unfair.

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

Clearly this vs is showing us the path to God is not through fear.

Digging

 

[GrannyJ]

I agree with you, Digging. I don't think fear of hell is a good reason for being a Christian; instead, I see it like the parables in Matthew 13:44-5 - a treasure that is so valuable that one is happy to part with everything else in order to possess it. The treasure of eternal life with Jesus who loved us enough to die for us.

 

[JLB]

I'm not trying to change the subject here but I want to talk about how much our culture has become fear based. The very foundation of civil order is fear based. I'll give an example.

Why do millions people all over America pay rent, often which they feel is to high? Because if they fail to pay the demanded amounts they are in danger of being evicted by force and end up homeless. This is just one of many, many examples. At this time society is controlled by the constant underlying possibility of violence against ourselves, thus fear. Fear of 'breaking the law'.....even if the law is unfair.

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

Clearly this vs is showing us the path to God is not through fear.

Digging

That is fear of man, which brings a snare.


We are told to fear God -


But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him! Luke 12:5

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

And His mercy is on those who fear Him From generation to generation. Luke 1:50


JLB

 

[jeff77]

I agree with you, Digging. I don't think fear of hell is a good reason for being a Christian; instead, I see it like the parables in Matthew 13:44-5 - a treasure that is so valuable that one is happy to part with everything else in order to possess it. The treasure of eternal life with Jesus who loved us enough to die for us.

I agree in a sense that if someone ask us why we are a Christian we shouldn't say "So I won't go to hell". It should be because we love Christ and want to be with him in heaven.

 

[JLB]

but the LORD takes pleasure in those who fear him, in those who hope in his steadfast love. Psalm 147:11

 

[TimothyW]

That is fear of man, which brings a snare.


We are told to fear God -


But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him! Luke 12:5

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

And His mercy is on those who fear Him From generation to generation. Luke 1:50


JLB

I agree, and Jesus said fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. He says the soul and body of those in Gehenna will be destroyed, not tormented alive forever. How can you reconcile Jesus' words with your doctrine?

 

[digging]

That is fear of man, which brings a snare.


We are told to fear God -


But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him! Luke 12:5

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

And His mercy is on those who fear Him From generation to generation. Luke 1:50


JLB

JLB,

I get the feeling you are 'afraid' to allow yourself to take time to consider and reflect on other scriptures in the bible that might not at first make sense to you right away. The vs's in 1 John 4 are NOT talking about the fear of man at all.

14 We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.17 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment ; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love ; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. 19 We love, because He first loved us.

Digging

 

[Eugene]

There's an interesting thing about the false prophet we don't usually think about.

Rev 16:13-14 KJV And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. (14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

It seems the false prophet may be a man possessed by a devil.

Hi Brother @agua
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

 

[JLB]

JLB,

I get the feeling you are 'afraid' to allow yourself to take time to consider and reflect on other scriptures in the bible that might not at first make sense to you right away. The vs's in 1 John 4 are NOT talking about the fear of man at all.

14 We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.17 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment ; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love ; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. 19 We love, because He first loved us.

Digging

If one abides in God and has a relationship with Him in this life, then they have no need to fear death, in the day of Judgment.

However this does not mean we are not to fear God, as the many scriptures teach us.

The fear of the Lord is a healthy part of our relationship with Him.

He loves us, and we love Him and grow in our love for Him.

The more you know God the more you will fear Him, and Love Him.

This is the balance.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I agree, and Jesus said fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. He says the soul and body of those in Gehenna will be destroyed, not tormented alive forever. How can you reconcile Jesus' words with your doctrine?

I can reconcile Jesus words with the other words of Jesus that teach us that destruction will continue forever.

Please follow the path of reconciliation with me in these passages of scripture.

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: and these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Matthew 25:41,46

The foundational statement in this reconciliation of scriptures.


'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil... and these will go away into everlasting punishment.

These are sentenced to the same fate as the devil, ie; everlasting punishment


Lets see what the fate is of the devil?

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10


The devil was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone... and tormented day and night forever and ever

'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels, these will go away into everlasting punishment,

This is how I reconcile the scriptures that teach us the fate of the devil, his angels, the false prophet, the beast, those who Jesus cursed and sentenced to the same fate as the devil, as well as those who take the mark of the beast.



They are destroyed in everlasting fire, day and night with no rest, whereby they wail and gnash their teeth forever and ever.


JLB

 

[agua.]

Hi Brother @agua
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

Yeah cool Eugene. So do you think he's possessed ?

 

[Eugene]

Yeah cool Eugene. So do you think he's possessed ?

I don't really know, but he has all the power of Satan at his bidding. I think the false prophet will do all he can to destroy, and promote the man of sin.

 

[agua.]

I don't really know, but he has all the power of Satan at his bidding. I think the false prophet will do all he can to destroy, and promote the man of sin.

Yeah he sounds like a real bad critter. The imagery of spirits coming out of his mouth make me think of possession for some reason like the evil spirits are inside him.

 

[Eugene]

Yeah he sounds like a real bad critter. The imagery of spirits coming out of his mouth make me think of possession for some reason like the evil spirits are inside him.

There is so much imagery used in scripture as types, anything I would assign to it would truly be supposition at best. Any elect entering that period of time (Rev 7:14) and knowing of these prophesies will more than likely recognize the reality of those manifestations.

 

[GrannyJ]

It would be good to see a well-researched and logical presentation of both sides of the CI / ECT argument. I'd put forward the results of my own research, but unfortunately I am no scholar and I'm sure anyone could pick holes in it. But Doulos and JLB have both obviously given the question much thought and research, from opposing views. I would be interested to see the rest of the material Doulos has on the subject, and would also be very interested to see JLB take us through more than the two scriptures presented so far.

 

[TimothyW]

I can reconcile Jesus words with the other words of Jesus that teach us that destruction will continue forever.

Please follow the path of reconciliation with me in these passages of scripture.

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: and these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Matthew 25:41,46

The foundational statement in this reconciliation of scriptures.


'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil... and these will go away into everlasting punishment.

These are sentenced to the same fate as the devil, ie; everlasting punishment


Lets see what the fate is of the devil?

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10


The devil was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone... and tormented day and night forever and ever

'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels, these will go away into everlasting punishment,

This is how I reconcile the scriptures that teach us the fate of the devil, his angels, the false prophet, the beast, those who Jesus cursed and sentenced to the same fate as the devil, as well as those who take the mark of the beast.



They are destroyed in everlasting fire, day and night with no rest, whereby they wail and gnash their teeth forever and ever.


JLB

Sorry JLB. You are ignoring that Jesus said they will go into destruction, fire destroys what is put into it, the lake of fire is the second death, which is destruction, and destruction which doesn't result in destruction isn't destruction at all. It is impossible to speak of an everlasting process of destruction which never results in destruction.

The plain language of scripture supports destruction without eternal life far better than it supports eternal living torment.

 

[JLB]

Sorry JLB. You are ignoring that Jesus said they will go into destruction, fire destroys what is put into it, the lake of fire is the second death, which is destruction, and destruction which doesn't result in destruction isn't destruction at all. It is impossible to speak of an everlasting process of destruction which never results in destruction.

The plain language of scripture supports destruction without eternal life far better than it supports eternal living torment.

they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


JLB

 

[TimothyW]

they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


JLB

The Lake of Fire is the second death. Anyone cast into the lake of fire will burn up. They will die a second time. Remember that they will have been thrown into the lake of fire after they have been resurrected from death to stand before Jesus Christ for judgment.

"They will be tormented day and night forever" is not referring to the fate of the lost. That refers to the fate of the devil, the beast and the false prophet. Remember the genre of Revelation. (Apocalyptic)