Bible Study Conditional Immortality

[TimothyW]

It seems like so much of our disagreements rely on the word "death" and how we see that it can have a different meaning than just the death of the body.

There are other words that describe the fate of the wicked in the Bible besides just "death"
For instance:
Destruction, being consumed by fire, being reduced to ash, being no more, perishing, not receiving eternal life, not having life...

 

[turnorburn]

i asked you a long time ago who taught you this doctrine but you never answered..

tob

 

[turnorburn]

digging you say truth and meaning are not always the same, Jesus is the truth please explain?

tob

 

[Randy]

John (who wrote the Book of Revelation) says that the lake of fire is the second death. "The lake of fire is the second death." Revelation 20:14
Death is not the same thing as Torment. The second death is death, the second time. It is the death that follows resurrection for judgment. The wicked are raised from their first death, judged, found to be guilty and then sentenced to death. It is called the second death because it will be the second time they have died. But there is no resurrection from the second death, so the second time they die, they remain dead forever. This is why it is also called an eternal punishment. Their destruction remains forever. They do not ever become "undestroyed".

As for Judas, why do you think that it would be better for Judas to be annihilated (and why do you say "simply annihilated?) than to be never born? I think that it would be better to never have been born than to be annihilated. But that is only speculation. And your saying that it is better to be "simply annihilated" is only speculation. "It would be better if Judas was never born" is not saying the same thing as "Judas will be tormented in the lake of fire". The Bible simply does not say that. But the Bible actually DOES say that the wicked will be destroyed and will be no more.

I believe what Jesus stated strengthens the belief that those who earn the 2nd death and are thrown in the lake of burning sulfur and fire are not annihilated. I can state they are destroyed as they never will rise again. They perish. I think its self evident Judas earned that judgment. So to me it would be better not to born then to end up tormented forever in the lake of fire of burning sulfur.


Then another angel, a third, followed them, crying with a loud voice, “Those who worship the beast and its image, and receive a mark on their foreheads or on their hands, 10 they will also drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured unmixed into the cup of his anger, and they will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image and for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

 

[TimothyW]

i asked you a long time ago who taught you this doctrine but you never answered..

tob

I learned the truth from reading the Bible. I didn't learn this from any one certain teacher.

 

[JLB]

There are other words that describe the fate of the wicked in the Bible besides just "death"
For instance:
Destruction, being consumed by fire, being reduced to ash, being no more, perishing, not receiving eternal life, not having life...

Let's discuss them.

Please share with us a scripture that states we will be reduced to ash at the second death.


JLB

 

[Randy]

I learned the truth from reading the Bible. I didn't learn this from any one certain teacher.

Ditto -with one exception
My relationship with Jesus is not static. Though on this topic all I know from the Lord is that "external consequences" are at stake for those who reject Him. The rest I read in scripture and make judgments in regard to those who earn the 2nd death. (annihilation vs tormented/awareness)

R.

 

[turnorburn]

You couldn't have read this doctrine in the bible because its not in the bible it defeats the reason for Christ coming it perverts his gospel, according to your doctrine there is no good news there is no gospel else why did Jesus come and suffer the way he did, to save you from eternal sleep? ever see that movie The Passion, that didn't come close to what actually happened to Jesus, when they were through tearing the flesh from his body a person couldn't tell whether he was a man or woman..

Isaiah 52:14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:

15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

All that just so you could sleep eternally? that is not the gospel Timothy not even close

tob

 

[TimothyW]

Let's discuss them.

Please share with us a scripture that states we will be reduced to ash at the second death.


JLB

WE won't be reduced to ash at the second death. You and I have placed our faith in Jesus Christ, so after we are resurrected from death, we will not be destroyed by the second death. We will inherit eternal life from Christ, we will not die a second time.

But when the day of the Lord comes, the arrogant and evildoers will be resurrected for judgment and they will die the second death. They will be reduced to ash. Here is one scripture passage describing the day of the Lord (and there are many others)
The Great Day of the LORD

1 “For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the LORD of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. 3 And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the LORD of hosts.​

Malachi 4:1-3

 

[TimothyW]

You couldn't have read this doctrine in the bible because its not in the bible it defeats the reason for Christ coming it perverts his gospel, according to your doctrine there is no good news there is no gospel else why did Jesus come and suffer the way he did, to save you from eternal sleep? ever see that movie The Passion, that didn't come close to what actually happened to Jesus, when they were through tearing the flesh from his body a person couldn't tell whether he was a man or woman..

Isaiah 52:14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:

15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

All that just so you could sleep eternally? that is not the gospel Timothy not even close

tob

Hi TOB,

It appears that you don't quite understand what I am saying. I am not saying that we are saved by Christ from eternal sleep or so that we can sleep eternally. I am saying that we are saved from eternal DEATH. Death is the condition of being dead. We are saved so that we can have eternal LIFE! We can be alive forever, which is way better than being dead forever! Jesus came so that we wold not PERISH but we will have eternal life. Haven't you ever read John 3:16? That is exactly what it says. That's the Gospel.

 

[JLB]

WE won't be reduced to ash at the second death. You and I have placed our faith in Jesus Christ, so after we are resurrected from death, we will not be destroyed by the second death. We will inherit eternal life from Christ, we will not die a second time.

But when the day of the Lord comes, the arrogant and evildoers will be resurrected for judgment and they will die the second death. They will be reduced to ash. Here is one scripture passage describing the day of the Lord (and there are many others)
The Great Day of the LORD

1 “For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the LORD of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. 3 And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the LORD of hosts.​

Malachi 4:1-3

for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the LORD of hosts.

Yes sir. This is a description of the wicked whose bodies will be destroyed on this earth when then Lord comes in that Day to execute vengeance upon them.

The ash is from human body.

The spirit of a wicked man will be tormented day and night and the smoke of their torment will rise forever, not turn to ask.


JLB

 

[TimothyW]

for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the LORD of hosts.

Yes sir. This is a description of the wicked whose bodies will be destroyed on this earth when then Lord comes in that Day to execute vengeance upon them.

The ash is from human body.

The spirit of a wicked man will be tormented day and night and the smoke of their torment will rise forever, not turn to ask.


JLB

Malachi 4 does not say that the spirits of the wicked will remain alive forever after they have been turned to ash.
Where does the Bible say that the spirits of the wicked will remain alive forever after their bodies have been burnt to ash?

 

[JLB]

Malachi 4 does not say that the spirits of the wicked will remain alive forever after they have been turned to ash.
Where does the Bible say that the spirits of the wicked will remain alive forever after their bodies have been burnt to ash?

You used the phrase turned to ash, not me.

That phrase is a reference to the body turning to ash.

Unless you can show a scripture whereby the spirit of a wicked man turns to ash in the lake of fire, then you are confusing what happens to the body when The Lord Himself returns to execute vengeance upon the wicked.

At The judgement when all the nations are gather before Him, He will sentence those on His left hand to the same fire prepared for the devil.

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

There is a reference to the very specific fate of the devil, and those who are cursed on the day of Judgement.


The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10


JLB

 

[TimothyW]

You used the phrase turned to ash, not me.

That's right, here is the context:

"There are other words that describe the fate of the wicked in the Bible besides just "death"
For instance:
Destruction, being consumed by fire, being reduced to ash, being no more, perishing, not receiving eternal life, not having life..."
​

People who have been turned to ash do not have eternal life.
(I feel like Captain Obvious!)

 

[JLB]

That's right, here is the context:

"There are other words that describe the fate of the wicked in the Bible besides just "death"
For instance:
Destruction, being consumed by fire, being reduced to ash, being no more, perishing, not receiving eternal life, not having life..."
​

People who have been turned to ash do not have eternal life.
(I feel like Captain Obvious!)

Show me where the phrase reduced to ash is used in this teaching by Jesus!

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

the everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil is the lake of fire.

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10


Only torment day and night!

No ash!

This is obvious!


JLB

 

[reba]

keep it nice guys THANKS

2.4: . . . Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general.

Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the

Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

 

[turnorburn]

No that's not right Timothy i well understand what your saying and it is not the gospel of Jesus Christ its heresy..

tob
Edted by reba to read.....
I disagree Timothy, I do understand what you are saying... I believe it goes against the Gospel of Jesus Christ...

.

 

[TimothyW]

No that's not right Timothy i well understand what your saying and it is not the gospel of Jesus Christ its heresy..

tob
Edted by reba to read.....
I disagree Timothy, I do understand what you are saying... I believe it goes against the Gospel of Jesus Christ...

.

Thank you Tob. Here is what I believe the gospel of Jesus Christ is, in a nutshell:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but will have eternal life. John 3:16

Kindly notice in particular, the penalty for unbelief is mentioned (perish), the reward for belief is mentioned (eternal life), the reason for the gospel (God's Love), and the complete lack of any mention of torture. What I believe is straight out of the Bible and my beliefs and the Bible are not heresy. But thank you for posting your opinion.

 

[JLB]

Thank you Tob. Here is what I believe the gospel of Jesus Christ is, in a nutshell:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whoever believes in him shall not perish, but will have eternal life. John 3:16

Kindly notice in particular, the penalty for unbelief is mentioned (perish), the reward for belief is mentioned (eternal life), the reason for the gospel (God's Love), and the complete lack of any mention of torture. What I believe is straight out of the Bible and my beliefs and the Bible are not heresy. But thank you for posting your opinion.

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:41,46

Everlasting punishment into everlasting fire that is prepared for the devil.

The is the second death.

This is what Jesus clearly stated will happen to those whom He curses and sentences to the second death, to perish.

Your definition of perish seems to be different that what Jesus defined as the fate of those who are sentenced to everlasting punishment.


JLB

 

[turnorburn]

Then Jesus death was in vain according to your doctrine.. people are saying What repent" why should i? I'm happy with things as they are and when its over its over hell and the lake of fire will just evaporate the penalty for sin will be as the world treats it "a slap on the wrist" then its nighty nite sweetheart..

Pa-Lease Timothy read your bible and oh never mind you already did..

tob