Bible Study Conditional Immortality

[JLB]

The Lake of Fire is the second death. Anyone cast into the lake of fire will burn up.

Those are your words.

The scripture does not say anyone cast into the lake of fire will be burned up.


The scripture says - And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10


Jesus said those He cursed will suffer the same fate as the devil -

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:


You have changed what the scripture says!

Timothy says - cast into the lake of fire and burned up.

Scripture says - cast into the lake of fire and tormented day and night forever and ever.



JLB

 

[TimothyW]

I've read the Book of Revelation, and the rest of the Bible.

Nowhere does it say that the lost will go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever.
Read the context of Revelation 20:10, as you skipped part of the verse:
and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Now, after reading the entire verse, tell me. Who will be tormented day and night forever and ever?

Now read Revelation 20:14 and tell me what it says the lake of fire is.

I haven't changed what scripture says, and I wouldn't do that. You and I just disagree about the fate of the lost. There is no reason for us to be disagreeable to each other.

 

[TimothyW]

In general, I am opposed to taking one verse out the Book of Revelation and using it to overturn the rest of scripture. When we read the Bible, we should explain the unclear portions of scripture in the light of the clear portions of scriptures. People have had disagreements about what the Book of Revelations means ever since it was written. It is not the best place to start reading scripture.

 

[digging]

they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


JLB

You are trying to use Revelation a book of SYMBOLS to prove something literal???

Digging

 

[Eugene]

The Lake of Fire is the second death. Anyone cast into the lake of fire will burn up. They will die a second time. Remember that they will have been thrown into the lake of fire after they have been resurrected from death to stand before Jesus Christ for judgment.

"They will be tormented day and night forever" is not referring to the fate of the lost. That refers to the fate of the devil, the beast and the false prophet. Remember the genre of Revelation. (Apocalyptic)

Without going back to check your thinking as to who the false prophet and the beast are, do you believe they are something other than human?

In John 17:12 I read of Judas being a son of perdition, as I do concerning the man of sin in 2 Thes 2:3. Thanks.

 

[JLB]

You are trying to use Revelation a book of SYMBOLS to prove something literal???

Digging

Some parts of Revelation use symbolic language.

Tell me what part of this verse is symbolic.

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 12:10

JLB

 

[digging]

For myself the mentioning of brimstone is a clear indicator that this whole vs is symbolically describing the elimination of these wicked influences on earth.

Digging

 

[TimothyW]

Without going back to check your thinking as to who the false prophet and the beast are, do you believe they are something other than human?

In John 17:12 I read of Judas being a son of perdition, as I do concerning the man of sin in 2 Thes 2:3. Thanks.

I wouldn't use the false prophet and the beast in the Book of Revelation as "proof" that everyone Jesus said was going to destruction are not actually going to destruction but everlasting conscious torment instead of destruction. I don't know what the false prophet in the BOR represents. But I know that the false prophet is not "all of the lost". And the Beast is certainly not human, even if a person reads the symbolic book literally.

John 17:12 calls Judas a son of destruction. That is more in keeping with annihilationism than ECTism. I checked the Greek, and it is the word for destruction, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας.
Jesus said that none of them has perished EXCEPT the son of destruction. In other words, he did perish.

2 Thes 2:3 has the same term ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας, the son of destruction.

Perdition is a poor translation of ἀπωλείας, I don't know why the KJV translates it that way.

(BTW, thanks for bringing John 17:12 and 2 Thess 2:3 to my attention concerning this topic. The various ways these verses are translated is fascinating.)

 

[JLB]

For myself the mentioning of brimstone is a clear indicator that this whole vs is symbolically describing the elimination of these wicked influences on earth.

Digging

Do you believe there is a literal fire that is for the devil and his angels?

And that those who are cursed and sentence to this everlasting punishment will also be cast into this everlasting fire, literally.


JLB

 

[digging]

Personally I believe in a literal end to the existence of all wick both sprite and flesh.

HOW that ending of existence happens is what I see being symbolized.

Digging

 

[JLB]

For myself the mentioning of brimstone is a clear indicator that this whole vs is symbolically describing the elimination of these wicked influences on earth.

Digging

The wicked are eliminated from the earth at this event in verse 9 -

They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

After these are eliminated from the earth THEN The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

You might want to start at the beginning of Revelation 20 to see for yourself the contextual timeframe of verse 10.

This verse is after the resurrection where the wicked are banished from the earth and after the 1000 years of the resurrected ones reigning on the earth.

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:7-15


JLB

 

[JLB]

Personally I believe in a literal end to the existence of all wick both sprite and flesh.

HOW that ending of existence happens is what I see being symbolized.

Digging

Do you believe in a literal hell with fire?

 

[digging]

I agree that fire is real on earth and can effect physical creation, God has used fire on earth at different times. Fire is a simple chemical reaction that causes a rapid breaking down of elements. Once the fuel is broken down the fire goes out.

If I'm to understand you right you are saying you see two different fire events in these vs's? First the fire that comes down out of heaven and then the lake of fire and brimstone for the devil?



Digging

 

[digging]

Here a helpful fact.

1. Fire is a combination of chemical and physical changes in which substances interact to release heat, light, smoke and ash. Whether it is a fire in electrical insulation, an oil fire or a simple domestic fire, they all require three ingredients – combustible material, oxygen and a thermal trigger.

 

[Randy]

Hi All,

The thread "Annihilationism and the Gospel," has gotten kind of dated and a little off focus. This new thread is to discuss Conditional Immortality/Annihilationism and it's opposing views at length and in greater detail.

Also, in this thread we will be elevating the discussion and therefore will seek to treat everyone with dignity, respect and love.

Blessings in Christ,
DI

I don't think we know enough about the nature of spirit. For example what nourishes spirit? The fallen angels cast down to earth- (demons) don't have a body and asked Jesus did He come to "torment" them before the appointed time. Then asked permission to go into the pigs which Jesus granted. But they had to come out of the man they possessed . In other words they were still alive and aware. Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison. (mankind who died) Yet He was speaking to them in their current state. spirits. I myself believe Jesus redeemed them as they died apart from law and before the good news of the gospel was revealed. As Jesus told the priests "If I had not come and spoken to you you would not be guilty" with light comes accountability. So the language in Rev used tormented or torment in regard to the 2nd death. I believe those cast into that state are aware. I use the english term they "perish" as they will never rise again. Ref: The 1st resurrection at the 2nd coming. So to me even if God has the ability to unmake spirit He doesn't seem to do so. What God does do is warn and warn upfront such as the gospel message and before the great tribulation Rev 11. If anyone has even a shred of faith and love for God they will believe and repent.

 

[TimothyW]

Do you believe there is a literal fire that is for the devil and his angels?

And that those who are cursed and sentence to this everlasting punishment will also be cast into this everlasting fire, literally.

JLB

Don't you think that if there is a literal fire that it would literally consume what it burns up? That is literally what fire does.

It seems to me that there is a Catch 22 for ECT. If we take the fire in the BOR literally, then those who are tossed onto the fire are consumed by the fire. If the fire is symbolic, then why should we take the BOR literally?

Do you think the fire is literal or metaphoric?

 

[JLB]

Don't you think that if there is a literal fire that it would literally consume what it burns up? That is literally what fire does.

Do you think the fire is literal or metaphoric?

22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
Luke 16:22-24


... for I am tormented in this flame.'

Was Lazarus burned up?

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10

Is the false prophet burned up?

Is the devil burned up?

Is the beast burned up.

"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. Revelation 14:9-10

Are those who take the mark and worship the beast burned up or are they tormented with fire?

The scriptures say they are tormented with fire!


JLB

 

[digging]

I don't think we know enough about the nature of spirit. For example what nourishes spirit? The fallen angels cast down to earth- (demons) don't have a body and asked Jesus did He come to "torment" them before the appointed time. Then asked permission to go into the pigs which Jesus granted. But they had to come out of the man they possessed . In other words they were still alive and aware. Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison. (mankind who died) Yet He was speaking to them in their current state. spirits. I myself believe Jesus redeemed them as they died apart from law and before the good news of the gospel was revealed. As Jesus told the priests "If I had not come and spoken to you you would not be guilty" with light comes accountability. So the language in Rev used tormented or torment in regard to the 2nd death. I believe those cast into that state are aware. I use the english term they "perish" as they will never rise again. Ref: The 1st resurrection at the 2nd coming. So to me even if God has the ability to unmake spirit He doesn't seem to do so. What God does do is warn and warn upfront such as the gospel message and before the great tribulation Rev 11. If anyone has even a shred of faith and love for God they will believe and repent.

I do believe there is one other possible way to understand this reference with the spirit asking to not be 'tormented' it is linked to being in 'prison' and thus the torment could also be referring to the 1000's years during which the devil is bound and chained in the abyss.
Which occurs before the wicked are destroyed.

Digging

 

[TimothyW]

22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
Luke 16:22-24


... for I am tormented in this flame.'

Was Lazarus burned up?

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10

Is the false prophet burned up?

Is the devil burned up?

Is the beast burned up.

"If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. Revelation 14:9-10

Are those who take the mark and worship the beast burned up or are they tormented with fire?

The scriptures say they are tormented with fire!

JLB

So, symbolic fire then?

 

[JLB]

So, symbolic fire then?

If Jesus said the rich man was tormented in the flame then why would we think the fire was symbolic?

The rich man was being tormented by fire.