Confused about Cain and Abel

[manichunter]

Confused about Cain and Abel

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I have been baffled about this topic for a long time, since my twenties. Now I present to this forum since my study is not complete regarding this matter. Why did Cain and Abel offerer sacrifices when they were not under the law, as well as others prior to Moses being given the Torah? Second question. Why was Cain's offering rejected and Abel's offering accepted (Ge 4:3-5)?


Firstly, I believe Yahweh has given man a progressive revelation that He has unveiled in stages to mankind, but the story itself has been finished from God's prospective. Hence all of our arguements regarding this dispensation and this has been fulfilled are ludacris. Every part is a little glimspe into the entire picture that is not fragmented from God's point of view and vantage point. However, the reveal mankind's salvation to him, God took mankind through stages. Hence when we saw that the law has been fulfilled, we error because we are looking at it from a linear prospective as if God's will was bound and regulated by time. Hence the mystery of why Cain and Abel were offering the sacrifices later instituted through Moses. Why did Cain give a meal offering and Abel give a sin offering (Ex 29:41; Le 6:14; Le 5:6)? Who had taught them to observe these sacrifices? When were they instituted as mandatory to include Noah's, Abraham's, and Israel's practices of these offerings. Why does Paul even say he is being sacrificed as a meal offering for the saints (Php 2:17; 2Ti 4:6)?

We do the story of our salvation in justice back fractionalizing as if it is the tale of different stories or it is multiple books involved that make a whole story. It is one story of how we personaly lived, loved, and made it into eternal fellowship with God. Just because we see the picture from a different angle does not change the picture, just our prospective. This tends to influence what we say we see, our descriptions, and how we define things. However, nothing concerning the picture every changed except its position of angle towards us. All of the covenants/promises of commitment God has made with mankind have always been on the same picture, we have just not been able to see them all at the same time. However, we have made the error of thinking and reasoning like a man without aid from the HELPER. He is the only one that unveils the picture to mankind. The picture reveals things that are too high to be understood and explained for our natural and carnal man without revelation from the Spirit.........


Second- Cain gave his offering out of order. Abel gave his offering in the proper order. Biblically, God declared that you could not give a sweet offering before atonement was made by the offering of a non-sweet offering called a sin offering (Le 5:1-10). Cain did his own thing his way, and not God's prescribed way, hence it was totally rejected. This should tell us something about how we choose to worship God.


If any other can add information and research, please jump in .................... the more the better

 

[cyberjosh]

Just a few details to notice which I'll pitch in.

When Adam and Eve fell, to cover their nakedness (as a result of guilt) they girded themselves with fig leaves. This apparently was an inadequate covering for them for God gave them animal skins instead. Insignificant detail? Or possibly very telling? Animal skin implies that an animal died to supply it: the first blood sacrifice?

Did Cain try to revert to the old "agrarian" (crops, herbs, plants with leaves like Adam and Eve used for covering) approach for "covering" sin, while Abel kept up with God's original example of animal sacrifice?

You tell me.

 

[Vic C.]

When Adam and Eve fell, to cover their nakedness (as a result of guilt) they girded themselves with fig leaves. This apparently was an inadequate covering for them for God gave them animal skins instead. Insignificant detail? Or possibly very telling? Animal skin implies that an animal died to supply it: the first blood sacrifice?

This has been my understanding also. Whatever we may try to do to "cover" our sin is inadequate. Yes, an animal skin (and it's life to procure that skin) was the best cover at the time.

It is significant alright. Most, if not all, doctrines pertaining to our transgressions and the atonement for said transgressions start at The Beginning.

OK, Cain and Abel:

Gen 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

Something not revealed in this "process of time" came into being. I don't know or have knowledge of the Biblical history pertaining to this, but I can offer up what Adam Clarke wrote(he having been knowledgeable in Biblical history).

http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarkegen4.htm

Verse 3. In process of time] µymy Åqm mikkets yamim, at the end of days. Some think the anniversary of the creation to be here intended; it is more probable that it means the Sabbath, on which Adam and his family undoubtedly offered oblations to God, as the Divine worship was certainly instituted, and no doubt the Sabbath properly observed in that family. This worship was, in its original institution, very simple. It appears to have consisted of two parts: 1. Thanksgiving to God as the author and dispenser of all the bounties of nature, and oblations indicative of that gratitude. 2. Piacular sacrifices to his justice and holiness, implying a conviction of their own sinfulness, confession of transgression, and faith in the promised Deliverer. If we collate the passage here with the apostle's allusion to it, Heb. xi. 4, we shall see cause to form this conclusion.

Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering] hjnm minchah, unto the Lord. The word minchah is explained, Lev. ii. 1, &c., to be an offering of fine flour, with oil and frankincense. It was in general a eucharistic or gratitude offering, and is simply what is implied in the fruits of the ground brought by Cain to the Lord, by which he testified his belief in him as the Lord of the universe, and the dispenser of secular blessings.

 

[cyberjosh]

Thanks Vic, good stuff.

And adding to that, the "fullness [end/completion] of time" also implies that they knew a prescribed time to present sacrifices, and even that implies that they somehow knew sacrifices were necessary. On top of that, a much commented-on detail which is also interesting is that they "brought [their sacrifices].... to the LORD" (Gen 3:3-4), but where was this "location" that they brought it to and why in one particular place? Some have hypothesized that it was at the entry to the Garden of Eden where the Cheribum still guarded, but this is not for sure (plus I believe that Eden was taken from the earth at some time in history, but that's a different discussion). At any rate we see an order: sacrifice, prescribed time, prescribed place. And we can most probably assume with an order so specific, that Cain probably missed some prescribed item of sacrifice, namely an animal. Just a guess, but that's about as optimistic as it gets for "digging into" the text without clear details.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[manichunter]

I took a seminary class and one of the course books was titled Law of the Offerings, by Andruw Jukes.. A good book........ Well, me and Pastor were talking one about the offering system. Then all of the sudden, I that the sacrifices of Cain and Abel. God changes not and these offerings are atypical in their resemblance to the offerings given in the Torah.

I still have no clue as to why there were sacrifices before Torah. I though someone else might have the revelation or came across this lesson. I was just speculating and sharing something on my mind.......

I do have understanding for the Scripture- present yourselves as a living sacrifice and Pauls analogy of being a drink offering. The offering system should show saints how to serve and relate to the first God in the burnt offering, leadership in the meal offering, and saints in the peace offering.

 

[cyberjosh]

Any more thoughts about this?

 

[one_lost_coin]

It's a foreshadowing along with Abraham and Melchezidek, the manna in the desert as well as Passover, signs that find there fullfillment in the Eucharist.

 

[Imagican]

Also note that the 'ground' produces the offering of Cain yet the offering of Abel was 'one of his OWN' in that he was a sheppard, a KEEPER of that which he MUST have loved and that which contained 'blood'.

Cain was a farmer and that was due to the punishment placed upon mankind through Adam's sin. What 'righteous' offering could cain have possibly offered through that which was produced through such punishment?

Yet Abel had chosen to be a 'sheppard'. Protecting and sharing with actual live creatures.

Let me ask this: what does the word 'sacrifice' stand for to begin with?

In the ancient days, one's wealth would have been measured MOSTLY by what one had to eat. Preivious to 'money' or other forms of currency, one's flocks and such would have been the ultimate form of wealth. To 'sacrifice' was to 'give up' something of value. Therefore to offer up a piece of one's wealth as important as a 'sheep' would have been a 'major SACRIFICE' of one's wealth.

Now, if the ground produces fruit or vegitables pretty much 'on it's own', of 'what significant' sacrifice would this be to God? Yes, grains, and such took 'work' to produce in quantities, but vegitables OBVIOUSLY must have grown wild previous to the learning of cultivation. And even IF cultivation were the nature of the production of the offering of Cain, it was still an offering produced through the punishment placed upon mankind through the sin of his father. In essence, a passion or love for that which is 'without blood' or 'spirit'. Whereas Abel's labor would have been for that which took LOVE and compassion. Killing one of his flock would have certainly been a 'true sacrifice'.

Not offering this information as FACT, just a bit of possible 'insight' into the reason that Cain's offering was unacceptable while Abel's was fully accepted.

As far as the offerings before they were dictated in scripture; Don't we always offer that which we love something that is able to portray our love? In other words, is it impossible to believe or understand that these sacrifices were offered as 'gifts' without EVER having been commanded at that time? Love is 'giving' not taking. Certainly even Adam and Eve and Cain and Abel were able to recognize the significance of 'giving' as concerns LOVE............

MEC

 

[Paidion]

Cain did his own thing his way, and not God's prescribed way, hence it was totally rejected.

God didn't have a "prescribed way". True, the first offerings to God were those of Cain and Abel. Did God require these offerings? Did He ever ask for them, or suggest them? There is nothing in the Scriptures indicating that He did. Cain and Abel thought they might please God somehow by offering the best fruit of their labours. It wasn't that God needed these things. Can anyone give the Creator of the Universe a gift? The idea is preposterous to one who understands His Majesty! Those who serve lesser gods may try to give their gods something. For their gods did not create the things that were offered to them. But what does God Himself say about attempts to give Him a gift?

Job 41:11 Who has given to me, that I should repay him? Whatever is under the whole heaven is mine.

No doubt the apostle Paul had this passage in mind when he wrote:

Rom 11:35,36 Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory for ever. Amen.

Yet God will regard the offerings of man. Won’t any good father do the same when his little daughter brings him the gift of a dandelion or his little son, a toad? The father doesn't want or need either a dandelion or a toad. Nevertheless he will accept these gifts given in their childish innocence, and make some positive remark besides. In this way, he'll recognize the intent of his children to please him. God, in whose image we are created, will also graciously receive the gifts with which we try to please Him, although He doesn't need or want them.
In Genesis 4:3-5, we read:

In the course of time Cain brought to Yahweh an offering of the fruit of the ground, and Abel brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And Yahweh had regard for Abel and his offering, but for Cain and his offering he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell.

Why did God have no regard for Cain and his offering? You may have heard preachers say that God was displeased with the kind of offering that Cain brought. Many who consider atonement as a sacrifice to appease an angry God, tell us that Cain's offering was not accepted because it was not an animal offering. They quote, "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins." They say that Abel's offering was acceptable because it was an animal from his flock. But notice that this passage does not say that God did not have regard for Cain's offering, but rather that He did not have regard for Cain and his offering. When we read on, we find out why.

Genesis 4:6,7 Yahweh said to Cain, Why are you angry, and why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is couching at the door; its desire is for you, but you must master it.

Now the truth of what God requires comes out! God would have accepted Cain and his offering if he had done well! It is not that God requires a certain kind of offering, that is, a bloody one. Indeed He doesn't require any offering! Rather God requires people to do well, and to master sin. God didn't say to Cain, "If you offer an animal sacrifice, will you not be accepted?" Rather he said, "If you do well, will you not be accepted?" and "If you do not do well, sin is couching at the door... but you must master it ."

God had regard for Abel and his offering. Was it because Abel offered the right kind of offering? No! It was because Abel did well. Cain's failure to master sin manifested itself soon afterward in that he committed the first murder  that of his brother.

Doing Well and How it is Possible
God requires us to do well. He requires us to master sin. But He understands our weaknesses, our inability to work righteousness. This is why He sent His Son to die for us. This is the reason for the means of mercy provided by Christ. The following Scriptures give us the reason for Christ's death:

I Peter 2:24 He himself endured up our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

Heb 9:26 ...he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself

In no passage do we read that Christ died in order to forgive us our sins so that we could get to heaven. Rather, as the above Scriptures make clear, He died in order that we would no longer be self-serving sinners, but rather come under Lordship of Christ, overcome sin, become healed of our sin-sickness, and by His enabling grace actually become purified and righteous people who are eager to do good deeds, deeds that will help others to meet their needs. Proponents of the substitutionary theory of atonement believe that we are saved from hell. However, the angel announced, “You shall call His name “Jesus†for He will save His people from their sins.

Matt 1:20,21
But as he considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit; she will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."

The Enabling Grace of God

In examining the passage in Titus in its entirety, we find that Paul makes clear the true meaning of "grace". Paul first tells Timothy to instruct older men, older women, young women, and younger men how to live godly lives. Then he urges Timothy to be a model of good deeds himself. He asks Timothy to instruct slaves to show true fidelity to their masters. Then he writes the following to show that these instructions in righteous living cannot be carried out in the weakness of fallen man, but requires the enabling grace of God, made available to us through the death of Christ:

Titus 2: 11-15
For the grace of God appeared for the saving of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly desires, and to live sensibly, righteously, and piously in the present age, expecting the blessed hope and appearance of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ, who gave himself on our behalf to redeem us from all lawlessness, and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and correct with all authority. Let no one disregard you.

Notice that, in this passage, the grace of God is said to be the means by which we are trained to live righteous lives in this world. This is a far cry from the "unmerited favour" of God overlooking our sins because of Christ's "substitutionary death". Rather, in this passage Paul gives us the purpose of the death of Christ as he does so often elsewhere. Was it to "redeem us from hell"? No! It was to redeem us from all lawlessness! To purify for Himself a people of His own who are eager to do good deeds.

Taken from a booklet on which I have been working, called"The Supreme Sacrifice of Jesus Christ

 

[whitecloud]

Hi friends,

Wow, there is lots of good stuff here about Cains spirit and Ables spirit.

Ofcourse we know that even the blood of oxen and bulls do not take away sin. God is ever uplifting the Lamb that was slain for all Humanity. Only the perfect Blood of Jesus washes away sin.

That is so important to know and understand in relationship to the will of God from the foundations of the earth. His provision is the one and only, only one. I still have some questions why God let Cain live. The Lord never changes and Cains life was required. Yet the Lord had to have Cain leave the area that Adam and Eve were and to rome the earth delcaring the justice of the Lord.

The line of Adam to the three sons of Noah and the further definitions of our relationship on earth is all of the one single plan for mankind mentioned in the original post. Our Yashua came from the line of Shem as God said. We anglos and europians are from Jaseth and Gomer and Ham was the father of all the ites around Cannon.

Today, people are so lost in darkness and gross sin they do not see , know or care. We who are grafted in from amongst the gentile nations into His great plan, waite patiently upon Him to occomplish that for which He has sent forth His word unto the ends of the earth.

Ever , thinking it not strange that all the fowl spirits in men will ever still be bumb blinded walking in their own way.

Jesus, the same yesterday, today and forever. He is the WAY, the Truth and the Life everlasting. WOW.

Have fun loving Jesus. We have a long voyage befor us. PTL all ye Saints. Praise Him who lives forever, Holy and Just and who can not lie. Hey, you ever feel a little small guys.......

 

[Veritas]

I still have no clue as to why there were sacrifices before Torah. I though someone else might have the revelation or came across this lesson. I was just speculating and sharing something on my mind.......

There are those who still sacrafice today who do not even know the Torah. Paul may shed some light on this in Romans. Paul is specifically talking about Gentiles who know no law, but I see no reason this principle couldn't apply into the past when there was no law.

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) Romans 2:14-15

 

[3rddayuprising]

Consider also that Jesus, in Matthew 7:21-23, spoke of those that even came to God declaring that they had "worshiped Him and served Him" by doing great signs and wonders, and He turns to them and says, "Depart from Me, ye that work iniquity (self-will), I never knew you."

Cain and Abel were the first of this pattern of Truth that God "knows" some and doesn't "know" others. He knows His own. Cain was "of that wicked one" (1 John 3:12), therefore not given the Revelation of how to properly approach God. This pattern and foundation of God's true Kingdom has followed down all the way to today.