Consider the Flood and Attributes of God

[iconbusters]

Jesus said I will draw all men . All Men . All will have a chance to confess Jesus as savior .

John 12:32 Context​

29The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. 30Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. 31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33This he said, signifying what death he should die. 34The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man? 35Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

Please read this article. It gives a succinct explanation regarding the meaning of "all."
Also, we Christians understand there is no such thing as "chance" or "luck" or "fortune." The Bible is quite clear, giving numerous examples, including Proverbs 16:33. Salvation is not a matter of "chance." It is a matter of God infallibly decreeing the who, when, where and how, according to the good pleasure of His eternal sovereign will (Ephesians 1).

 

[hawkman]

Please read this article. It gives a succinct explanation regarding the meaning of "all."

I read the article and it did not mention the verse I quoted and offer a refutation of what I posted about John12:32 .

So I guess you have nothing to offer ?

Also, we Christians understand there is no such thing as "chance" or "luck" or "fortune." The Bible is quite clear, giving numerous examples, including Proverbs 16:33. Salvation is not a matter of "chance."

I know this . I see no reason to bring it up . I said nothing to suggest I did not know this .

 

[Free]

Jesus said I will draw all men . All Men . All will have a chance to confess Jesus as savior .

John 12:32 Context​

29The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. 30Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes. 31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33This he said, signifying what death he should die. 34The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man? 35Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

It's hard to see how Jesus could mean by drawing "all men" that "all will have the chance to confess Jesus as Savior," when we know that not everyone has heard or will hear about Jesus and the cross. I think that what Jesus means by drawing is actual salvation, not merely the chance for salvation. And when he says that his crucifixion will "draw all men unto me," he is talking about all types of men, meaning Jews and all non-Jews.

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. (ESV)

It's the same word for "draw" as in 12:32, but here it is clearly speaking of certain salvation. That is, when Jesus says that all men will be drawn unto him, it cannot happen apart from the Father, and is for the purpose of salvation.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

I was drawn to Jesus and I took Him for my savior .
Let me ask you what was your born again experience Bruce.Leiter ?

You didn't respond to my post, hawkman; but my born-again experience happened when my mom and I were attending a Baptist church and when I was 16, 66 years ago. That was the first time God confronted me with the claims of the gospel.

However, I wasn't convinced by the Baptist preacher. Instead, God led me through a reasoning process, as I searched the Bible for evidence that God was real and Jesus was also God. The fulfillments of Old Testament prophecies and Jesus' miracles were impressive, but it boiled down to whether or not Jesus' resurrection was a historical event as to whether I could believe his claims to be God.

I discovered that the Jews of that time expected a political Messiah to come, kick the Romans out of their country, and then be their ruler. Jesus' own disciples also expected that he would be that kind of Messiah. They were really crushed when he died on a criminals' cross.

Three days later, their sadness was turned to a great joy. They said that they had seen and touched Jesus, who was alive from the dead! More than 500 disciples even saw him on one occasion. All of those eyewitnesses were willing to suffer and die for their testimonies without giving them up. You can't get better people to testify to any historical event than they were.

As a result, God convinced me that Jesus' resurrection was an actual historical event. If God was that powerful, it confirmed the rest of the Bible's miracles and history. Thus, God made me a believer and has sustained my faith through many times of suffering and heartache, including the deaths of our second child and my dear wife. You might like the book What God Has Done: My True, Dramatic God-Biography (Amazon).

 

[hawkman]

Thank you for your replies .

You didn't respond to my post, @hawkman;

Your answer to my question would help me in my response and it did , thank you .

That was the first time God confronted me with the claims of the gospel.

This is where you had the drawing of Jesus working on you .

Yes, Jesus will draw all men and women to himself, but the verse doesn't say WHEN he will after his death.

It was not necessary to say a time period other than after his death , his death would be the starting point .
Draw not gather .

 

[iconbusters]

I read the article and it did not mention the verse I quoted and offer a refutation of what I posted about John12:32 .

So I guess you have nothing to offer ?

The article I recommended refuted the error of denoting "all" to mean "everyone on planet earth without exception" in every case in which the pronoun is used.
Do you really believe Jesus drew every person without exception.....including the Pharisees, Saducees, and those who never heard His name or the Gospel?
The Got Questions website says this: "Jesus wasn’t implying that every person without exception would put their faith in Him for salvation. Clearly, many did not. Jesus meant that people of all ethnic groups and from every part of the world would be drawn to Him through His exaltation in death. The “all people” included the Greeks who were seeking Jesus right then and listening to His voice."

 

[iconbusters]

I know this . I see no reason to bring it up . I said nothing to suggest I did not know this .

I merely quoted your own words: "All will have a chance to confess Jesus as savior ."

 

[hawkman]

I merely quoted your own words: "All will have a chance to confess Jesus as savior ."

Oh I can rephrase that for your understanding .
All will have an opportunity to confess Jesus as savior .

 

[iconbusters]

Oh I can rephrase that for your understanding .
All will have an opportunity to confess Jesus as savior .

When broken down to their basic components, there are ultimately two groups of people, through the ages, with whom we have to do: 1) Those who have been exposed to the name of Jesus and/or the Gospel before they died, and 2) Those who have not.

How were those in the second group given an opportunity to be drawn to Jesus?

In the first group there are 1) those who believed and were saved; and 2) Those who did not and were damned.

How were these unbelievers drawn to Christ? Were they not repelled by His message and miracles, as were the Pharisees? And are not there false Christians who claim Christ, yet are children of the devil? Did Christ draw them? If the answer is 'yes' then Christ's "drawing" is not efficacious to bringing those persons to faith; whereas the scriptural understanding is clearly enunciated in John 6:44: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Both the Father and Son's power to draw is coextensive. Their drawing is always efficacious. Therefore, only those who are saved were drawn.

 

[hawkman]

When broken down to their basic components, there are ultimately two groups of people, through the ages, with whom we have to do: 1) Those who have been exposed to the name of Jesus and/or the Gospel before they died, and 2) Those who have not.

How were those in the second group given an opportunity to be drawn to Jesus?

In the first group there are 1) those who believed and were saved; and 2) Those who did not and were damned.

How were these unbelievers drawn to Christ? Were they not repelled by His message and miracles, as were the Pharisees? And are not there false Christians who claim Christ, yet are children of the devil? Did Christ draw them? If the answer is 'yes' then Christ's "drawing" is not efficacious to bringing those persons to faith; whereas the scriptural understanding is clearly enunciated in John 6:44: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Both the Father and Son's power to draw is coextensive. Their drawing is always efficacious. Therefore, only those who are saved were drawn.

You can be drawn to Jesus but will you come to Jesus to accept the gift of salvation .

I was drawn and I was convicted by the Holy Spirit of my sins many times and yet I did not come to Jesus . Until one day I finally did come to Jesus , praise God !

 

[iconbusters]

You can be drawn to Jesus but will you come to Jesus to accept the gift of salvation .

I was drawn and I was convicted by the Holy Spirit of my sins many times and yet I did not come to Jesus . Until one day I finally did come to Jesus , praise God !

Respectfully, you are not rightly understanding John 6:44: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
This statement can be declared positively: All men drawn by the Father will come to me and I will infallibly save them.
I have already proven the power to draw is coterminous for both Father and Son.
Thus, the drawing power of the Father and Son will always ultimately result in coming to Jesus in saving faith.
Your testimony exactly coincides with this truth. The drawing power of God is always ultimately efficacious to those to whom it is applied.
Those who die never having come to faith in Jesus, were never drawn by the Father and/or the Son.
This is due to their reprobation, having never been decreed to receive the gracious gift of saving faith.

Jesus' statement: And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me, must be understood in context. Proper exegesis takes time and study to rightly interpret Scripture. Not all men will take the necessary time or make the necessary effort to do so. I applaud your godly effort to question my posts in order to gain a better understanding!

 

[iconbusters]

The Coterminous Nature of Christ's Mediation
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5).

A mediator’s mission is to reconcile two conflicting parties.
For Christ to accomplish this task, He must employ all aspects of His divine offices.
As Prophet, Christ must explain to men the seriousness of offending the true God (John 17:8).
He then must direct them to the only means of reconciliation with God: They must place in Him the same faith they have in God (John 14:1).
As High Priest, He must offer a perfect blood sacrifice (Hebrews 9:22).
This He did when He offered Himself a ransom for many (Matt. 20:28).
But another critical aspect of His Priestly office is that of intercessory prayer.

Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us (Romans 8:34).

The ‘us’ to whom Paul is referring are true Christians, whether past, present or future, known as 'Elect.'
They alone cannot be condemned (Romans 8:1).
Christ does not make intercession for all mankind.
He prays only for those given Him by the Father.
Christ's prayers never fail.
We know this because the Father always hears and answers His prayers, John 11:41-42.

Nor is Christ the Savior of all mankind.
Christ plainly states this fact in His High Priestly prayer to His Father just prior to His crucifixion:
These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him (John 17:1-2).

Christ’s mission was to give eternal life (i.e., save to the uttermost) only those given Him by the Father.
Those given by the Father are the same ones the Father so loved worldwide.
They were elected/chosen by the Father before the foundation of the earth to be with Him for all eternity (Ephesians 1:3-6).

Christ will not lose one given Him by the Father (John 17:12).
The persons Christ saves are coterminous with the persons so loved by God.
Christ carries out His mission perfectly (John 17:4), to the glory of God.
Moreover, should there be any dispute regarding Christ bestowing eternal life only to those given Him by the Father, Jesus makes the following declaration:

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine (John 17:9).

Christ does not pray for the salvation of the wicked world of non-elect sinners.
Christ only prays for the salvation of those sinners in the world so loved by God given to Him for the express purpose of bestowing them eternal life.
Had God’s intention been the salvation of all mankind, bar none, then Christ’s prayer in verse 9 would have countermanded the will of His Father.
Such rebellion would constitute sin, and sin would disqualify Christ from offering Himself a sinless ransom for many.
Since such rebellion by Christ is out of the question, we must now examine Christ’s High Priestly prayer on the cross:

Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do (Luke 23:34).

Again, it is impossible Christ is praying for all mankind.
He is praying for the same ones for whom He prayed in John 17: all Elect throughout the ages.
To do otherwise is open rebellion to the will of God.
Had Christ’s prayer on the cross countermanded the will of God, Christ would not have been resurrected.
His sin would have kept Him in the grave.

CONCLUSION: Christ’s intercession is only for those so loved by the Father who were chosen by Him for salvation through Christ.
Christ’s mediation, intercession and atonement are coterminous with those so loved by the Father.

 

[hawkman]

Respectfully, you are not rightly understanding John 6:44: No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
This statement can be declared positively: All men drawn by the Father will come to me and I will infallibly save them.
I have already proven the power to draw is coterminous for both Father and Son.
Thus, the drawing power of the Father and Son will always ultimately result in coming to Jesus in saving faith.
Your testimony exactly coincides with this truth. The drawing power of God is always ultimately efficacious to those to whom it is applied.
Those who die never having come to faith in Jesus, were never drawn by the Father and/or the Son.
This is due to their reprobation, having never been decreed to receive the gracious gift of saving faith.

Jesus' statement: And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me, must be understood in context. Proper exegesis takes time and study to rightly interpret Scripture. Not all men will take the necessary time or make the necessary effort to do so. I applaud your godly effort to question my posts in order to gain a better understanding!

How was it when you come to Jesus , what was your born again experience ? (If you have already shared that on this forum point me to it .) Were you first drawn to Jesus , were you convicted of your sins by the Holy Spirit ?

 

[iconbusters]

How was it when you come to Jesus , what was your born again experience ? (If you have already shared that on this forum point me to it .) Were you first drawn to Jesus , were you convicted of your sins by the Holy Spirit ?

I was first drawn to Christ by having been given a conviction that all was not well with my life. This corresponds to Christ's teaching in John 16:8 ff. Although I had attended Sunday School as a boy and received 'confirmation' in the local Methodist Church, I never took it seriously. I preferred being a cut-up and clown, much to my shame today. As an adult years later, I met a young man at a party who invited me to church. I thought, 'Why not?' Perhaps I might meet an interesting woman. Instead, I met the Lord Almighty who broke me down out of my unbelief, all the while original Christian songs containing the Word were being performed. I left the church that night with a sense of calm and belief in the power and truth of God's existence that I had never before experienced. I immediately immersed myself in the Word through reading the Living Bible, which was recommended to me, a new Christian. Furthermore, I testified right away to my family and friends that God was real and that I was now a believer. The more I studied the Word, the more I understood that my non-Christian family were in serious trouble, so I warned them of Hell and damnation apart from faith in Jesus. That led to a breach, along with a warning to shut-up about eternal punishment or lose their fellowship. I then used more restraint to maintain a relationship. Tragically, many have since passed away in unbelief.

My thirst for biblical knowledge and understanding was insatiable. I devoured all I could, the Lord having made it possible to study full time. Soon, I was introduced to the doctrines of grace via reading. At first, I could not grasp concepts which were foreign to me, but with prayer and persistence I have since come to understand them through the many writings of past and present generations of Protestant Reformers. Sadly, these crucial doctrines are either ignored or taught erroneously as heresy in too many churches today.

My studies of Church history along with the many commentaries of the Protestant Reformers have convinced me of the evils of Roman Catholicism and the Papacy which have been foretold, having come to pass in fulfilling prophecy.

Today I spend much time translating classic works from Latin for edification of the Church. Information on these works and other matters can be found at my website, www.iconbusters.com.

I hope this short summary is helpful!

 

[iconbusters]

God’s Love is Invincible

For years I have been deeply troubled by the fact that the love of God is being taught erroneously. This error ultimately finds its culmination in the precept that ‘God loves all mankind, even those in Hell.’
This false statement was the direct response of a seminary-educated Baptist pastor I had asked: whether 'God loved those in Hell.' Without hesitation he responded, “Yes.”

Thus, this error runs deep, beginning with seminaries who feed this error to pastors in training, who, in turn, eventually feed this error to their flock with whom they are overseers. Lamentably, few Christians question the scriptural validity of such an unwarranted assertion.

From a carnal standpoint, it makes perfect sense to not only emphasize the love of God, but to extend that love to all mankind without exception. Man, by nature, prefers the Gospel of Love rather than the Gospel of Truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

The truth that God did not love those He purposefully drowned in Noah’s flood.
The truth that God saves to the uttermost all those He loves.
The truth that those in Hell were never loved by God.
The truth that God not only does not love all without exception, but He is in no way compelled to love any of His Creation. The fact that He does love any sinner is according to the good pleasure of the counsel of His will, independent of anything worthy in the sinner, or of any debt owed him.

My posts thus far have all been written for the purpose of refuting the false doctrine that God’s love extends even to those whom He destroyed or are now forever in torments. Such a love is unfathomable to equate with our holy, all-powerful, infinitely wise God.
I now add another proof of God’s love: His love is invincible.

INVINCIBLE: Too powerful to be defeated or overcome.

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? ..... For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:35, 38-39).

Hell is eternal separation from God. We know this because God is light (John 8:12) and Hell is darkness (Matt. 8:12; 22:13). Light and darkness cannot abide together (2 Cor. 6:14). Unless we call Paul, the Bible, and God liars, Paul’s argument here deals with the invincibility of God’s love for His people. His people are drawn from all walks of life, ethnicities, nations and tribes (Rev. 7:9 ff.), according to the good pleasure of His will to save them (Eph. 1:5 ff).

These will all infallibly come to a saving faith and knowledge of Jesus, as opposed to the carnal doctrine of the Very Rev. Billy Graham. He believes it is not necessary to have knowledge of Jesus or the Gospel to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. How pleasing is this doctrine to those who have itching ears! How easy it is to come forward and say a prayer, so that sins will be forgiven and entrance to Heaven guaranteed! One does not need to confess Jesus or have faith in Him and yet be considered a member of God's family!

NEXT: How God’s love always results in the salvation of those He loves.

 

[iconbusters]

How God's Love Always Results in the Salvation of those He Loves

Our holy God has two wills: secret and revealed. His revealed will is also known as His preceptive will which informs man of his duty to God and his fellow man. This will is encompassed in the great commandment of loving God and neighbor. His secret will concerns those decrees which are known only to God, that is, until they come to pass (Deut. 29:29). Election unto salvation is a primary example of His secret will. Had we known who, exactly, are the Elect, we could bypass preaching to the non-Elect, saving time, energy and valuable resources.

However, because we have no 'inside information' as to the identity of the Elect, we are commanded to preach to all men worldwide. It is God who gives ears to hear. It is God who gives the increase. Our task is to deliver the message of the Gospel without compromise, in season and out of season.

The fact that God has chosen His Elect before the foundation of the world, (Eph. 1:4-5), before they were born, not yet having done good or evil, (Romans 9:11), is a major stumbling block to many today, as well as in Paul's day (Romans 9:14, 19-20). One reason for the resistance to this truth is the fact that many professing Christians do not realize or grasp the debilitating effects sin has upon man. Scripture, in no uncertain terms, describes man's nature as inherently evil (Matt. 7:11), spiritually blind (John 3:3) and dead (Eph. 2:1) to the things of God, who is a Spirit, and must be worshipped in spirit and truth (John 4:24).

So here we have a serious dilemma: How then can man be saved? Jesus answers this pertinent question: With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible (Matt. 19:26). Jesus is stating a paramount truth not accepted by many professing Christians. For they erroneously proclaim man's will and nature are still capable of making and keeping a holy and righteous decision to die to self and follow Christ. But Christ, who cannot lie, says this is not possible with unrighteous and evil man. Paul agrees with Christ's assessment when he states, no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost (1 Cor. 12:3).

Jesus amplified this truth when He declared that on Judgment Day many - not some or a few - will call Him 'Lord,' yet their profession will be carnal, not of the Spirit (Matt. 7:23). They were never part of His Body. They never truly believed. They were never chosen by the Father for salvation. Neither did Christ die on their behalf. Neither did the Holy Spirit regenerate them.

Why is it the Father, Son and Holy Spirit did not choose, redeem and quicken them?

The answer is summed up in one word: GRACE.

Salvation is by grace (Eph. 2:8), which is God's sovereign right to bestow or withhold according to the good pleasure of His will (Romans 9:15).

NEXT: Grace is another word for God's love.