Consider the Flood and Attributes of God

[for_his_glory]

So, rather than using a word study as proof, I used a commonsense approach that doesn't require a PhD to understand.

If one is only using a common sense approach to reading the word of God (Bible) it would seem to me that they are not Spiritually born again nor indwelled with the Holy Spirit that teaches us all truths. John 3:5-7; John 14:26.

It does not take a PhD in understanding the word of God, but are guided into all truths through the Holy Spirit teaching us all things that we read in the Bible as the carnal logical mind can not perceive the things of the Spirit of God and is a hostile enemy against the Holy Spirit.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Consider the Flood and Attributes of God​

1. Consider God is love: 1 John 4:8.

2. Consider God does not change: Malachi 3:6.

3. Consider God is the same before the world began, during the Old Testament times, New Testament times and forever: Hebrews 13:8.

4. Consider God does nothing without a purpose, and His purpose will be accomplished: Isaiah 46:10.

5. Consider God purposefully brought the Flood as a judgment upon all mankind: Genesis 6:17.

6. Consider God is omniscient: Isaiah 40:28.

7. Consider every inhabitant on earth perished, with the exception of 8 souls: Genesis 7:21-23. This God foreknew before He sent the Flood because He is omniscient and because He purposed their demise.

8. Now consider the common assumption in exegeting John 3:16 in order to prove that “God so loved the world.” The assumption dictates that this verse must apply to all mankind, without exception, due to the obvious definition of ‘world.’

9. By applying this assumption, we must consider that God, who is love, and whose love is constant, and is not partial, Acts 10:34, and does not change, so loved all mankind in both the world of Old and New Testaments, otherwise the assumption would not hold true. And besides, who would dare claim otherwise.... that God hated Old Testament mankind yet loved New Testament mankind.

10. Consider the Conclusion: Despite His deep and constant love for all mankind, God purposefully and willfully destroyed all mankind living at the time of the Flood, except for 8 souls.

11. Now consider the love of God for those who perished in the Flood:

(a) God so loved the elderly, the maimed, the mentally incompetent, the crippled, the pregnant, mothers, infants, toddlers, children, etc., etc., that they were all DROWNED ON PURPOSE.

(b) Noah reached a few men with his preaching, though they ignored his warning, 2 Peter 2:5, but the vast majority on earth who lived further away never heard the Gospel. Yet God purposefully destroyed them knowing faith comes only by hearing the Word of God, Romans 10:17, which they will never hear.

SUMMARY​

Preaching God’s love for all without exception leads to a very perverted view of God’s love.

1. It preaches a love which fails to save those whom God loves.

2. It preaches a love for those who will never be saved because He has willed they never hear the Gospel.

3. To tell a person, “God loves you,” is of little comfort. For, according to many, God also loves those in Hell. His love has given you the free will to choose Christ or perish. Once God loves you, they teach, He always loves you, for God is love and His love does not change, even for those in Hell, despite the horror of their eternal torments.

4. Thus, according to many, there are two kinds of God’s love: one malevolent, the other benevolent. The malevolent love of God either stands by, doing nothing more to save you, though He has the infinite power and knowledge to reverse your course on the road to perdition. Of course, if He purposed your demise, He would never give a thought of intervening in your destruction.

However, the Bible teaches only one kind of God’s love: benevolent. God’s love never fails, 1 Cor. 13:8; it always accomplishes its purpose. And that purpose is to save His people, whom He has loved and foreknown from eternity, Matthew 1:21, Jeremiah 31:3. It is a love which intervenes and actually rescues those who are incapable of rescuing themselves, for men are naturally dead to spiritual truths, Ephesians 2:1. It is a love which comes first, before we could claim any genuine love for Him, 1 John 4:19. It is a love which loses none, John 6:39.

To teach, preach and believe otherwise is a sign and symptom of the tragic possibility that one may not know the true God.

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

NEXT: Consider the Garden.

​

Most of what you say is true, but God also has the divine quality of constant justice; he is both love and justice as our just Creator-Judge. He shows his love to all his creatures by, for example, giving them life and other blessings. However, most of his human creatures do not give him credit (Romans 1:18-20) and therefore will not have any excuse at the final judgment. However, he shows his special love to believers.

He is also the perfect, just Judge, who condemns human rebellion (Romans 1:18--3:20). Why he doesn't save everyone, for which he must have a good reason, is a total mystery, because the Bible doesn't reveal it.

The only escape from God's "guilty" verdict is his gift of faith through his grace shown in Jesus' death.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hello hawkman,
The OP concerns the question of God's love for all when He purposed to drown all (except 8). The fundamental issue concerns knowing the true God according to His Word or believing in a God who is not consistent with the God of Scripture. Once we tackle this issue, we can discuss Noah. Does that sound fair?

I know this was directed to hawkman but I want to give you these scriptures that applies to every generation (OT - NT) and not just to Israel that the God of all creation that we serve is a loving and a just God who loves all of us and would hope that none should perish, but turn back to Him.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hosea 4:7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

Read vs. 7 very carefully and then read John 3:16-21 and 2Peter 3:9-13 as God would not anyone to parish as He has great love for all His creation, but it is those who refuse to turn back to Him as they would rather live sinful lives instead of walking in the light of Jesus.

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[iconbusters]

If one is only using a common sense approach to reading the word of God (Bible) it would seem to me that they are not Spiritually born again nor indwelled with the Holy Spirit that teaches us all truths. John 3:5-7; John 14:26.

It does not take a PhD in understanding the word of God, but are guided into all truths through the Holy Spirit teaching us all things that we read in the Bible as the carnal logical mind can not perceive the things of the Spirit of God and is a hostile enemy against the Holy Spirit.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The Roman Catholic Church would have you believe the Bible was so complex and difficult that it was dangerous and illegal for laymen without theological training to have a Bible in their possession, let alone read it. Good Catholics are to believe and obey all the teachings of the Magisterium, as well as their infallible Pope.

On the contrary, the parable of the Sower teaches the worldwide sowing of the seed of the Word for all to read and feed upon. For man (any man - layman or theologian, saint or sinner) shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

No one disputes the fact there are difficult passages in the Bible. Even the Apostle Peter admits as much. Thankfully, God has placed teachers in His Body who can help open the confusing passages.

You would be amazed at how many illiterate working-class peasants from previous centuries would memorize Scripture epistles by carefully listening to those who could read and translate Latin into their native languages. Their ability to debate the ultra-educated Catholic bishops and priests was supernatural. Knowledge of Church history is quite revealing of many truths.

Our task as Christians is not to assume the Holy Spirit is not at work in those to whom we preach. Our task is to sow the Word and allow God to give the increase as He so chooses.

Besides, the Lord promises: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

 

[iconbusters]

Most of what you say is true, but God also has the divine quality of constant justice; he is both love and justice as our just Creator-Judge. He shows his love to all his creatures by, for example, giving them life and other blessings. However, most of his human creatures do not give him credit (Romans 1:18-20) and therefore will not have any excuse at the final judgment. However, he shows his special love to believers.

He is also the perfect, just Judge, who condemns human rebellion (Romans 1:18--3:20). Why he doesn't save everyone, for which he must have a good reason, is a total mystery, because the Bible doesn't reveal it.

The only escape from God's "guilty" verdict is his gift of faith through his grace shown in Jesus' death.

Yes, indeed, there is the necessary attribute of divine justice. However, my OP did not address that topic on purpose. It was my intent to focus only on the love of God. I was saving 'justice' for a future post.

 

[iconbusters]

I know this was directed to @hawkman but I want to give you these scriptures that applies to every generation (OT - NT) and not just to Israel that the God of all creation that we serve is a loving and a just God who loves all of us and would hope that none should perish, but turn back to Him.

Hello, for His glory,
Thank you for your sincere input. I wish to examine the term "hope" which you use in your argument. Men put their hope in the Lord and His promises. However, God has no need to hope for anything or in anyone. This is due to the fact that God had already determined all things which shall most certainly come to pass before the foundation of the world. No event takes place without His having decreed it. That includes the roll of the dice and the death of a bird. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Salvation is of the Lord. Thus, God always knew who He would save and who He would judge.

There are cogent answers for all the passages which seem to imply God is not willing for any to perish. A simple Internet search will expose the fallacies of these typical Arminian/Semi-Pelagian arguments.

 

[hawkman]

Billy Graham also believes God has a plan to save those who have never heard the name of Jesus, let alone the Gospel. This is called the Gospel of Good Works. By simply being a "good" person with "good" intentions, God will save you. Please view the YouTube interview with Graham. He is one of many who deny the evil hearts lurking in all mankind, unless regenerated by the Holy Spirit through hearing the Word of God.

I would ask if you are an acolyte of Billy Graham but I guess you are not .

Are you an acolyte of John Calvin ?

 

[for_his_glory]

Hello, for His glory,
Thank you for your sincere input. I wish to examine the term "hope" which you use in your argument. Men put their hope in the Lord and His promises. However, God has no need to hope for anything or in anyone. This is due to the fact that God had already determined all things which shall most certainly come to pass before the foundation of the world. No event takes place without His having decreed it. That includes the roll of the dice and the death of a bird. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Salvation is of the Lord. Thus, God always knew who He would save and who He would judge.

There are cogent answers for all the passages which seem to imply God is not willing for any to perish. A simple Internet search will expose the fallacies of these typical Arminian/Semi-Pelagian arguments.

I can understand where you are coming from as you use a carnal logical approach to the word of God. I will leave you with this verse to ponder.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The evil that God has created are His righteous judgements that come upon those who are not obedient to His commands. It's like that of the10 plagues in the book of Exodus as Pharaoh oppresses Israel while taken them into captivity as even though God gave him a chance to let them go he refused so God's punishment came against Egypt.

The same with many battles we read of in the OT that came against God's people as all is done in righteous judgement of God to show He is the Great I Am, Exodus 3:10-15.

So will it also be in the end of days when God's righteous judgements are poured out into the world.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hello, for His glory,
Thank you for your sincere input. I wish to examine the term "hope" which you use in your argument. Men put their hope in the Lord and His promises. However, God has no need to hope for anything or in anyone. This is due to the fact that God had already determined all things which shall most certainly come to pass before the foundation of the world. No event takes place without His having decreed it. That includes the roll of the dice and the death of a bird. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Salvation is of the Lord. Thus, God always knew who He would save and who He would judge.

There are cogent answers for all the passages which seem to imply God is not willing for any to perish. A simple Internet search will expose the fallacies of these typical Arminian/Semi-Pelagian arguments.

I am not Armenian and have no clue what Semi-Pelagian is without looking it up.

God can not force anyone to turn back to Him, but maybe a better word would instead of hope would be that God "desires" all to turn back to Him for the love He has for everyone. Those that mocked Noah had no desire to listen to his preaching to them as their hearts were harden by their choose to be lovers of self and lovers of the worldly pleasures. We can see in Genesis 6:5-8 the wickedness of man as it repented God that He even created man, but only Noah found favor in the Lord and was spared from the flood consuming he and his family.

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Yes. But then we must ask, 'How did Noah find favor with God?' How was he perfect, righteous and blameless

Yes, Scripture declares the wickedness of mankind. But we must ask, Why did Noah alone find favor in the eyes of the Lord? Why was he alone perfect, righteous and blameless? The Charles Stanley ministry believed it was because of Noah's righteous free will choice to obediently walk with God that merited favor/grace, according to their monthly magazine some years ago. Do you agree? Was Noah sinless, and therefore, 'perfect'?

The Bible doesn't say that Noah was sinless; he was blameless, which translates a Hebrew word that was used for the outwardly-blemish-free animal sacrifices. It was outward righteousness with true faith. He certainly wasn't perfect, since he got drunk after the flood.

 

[iconbusters]

The Bible doesn't say that Noah was sinless; he was blameless, which translates a Hebrew word that was used for the outwardly-blemish-free animal sacrifices. It was outward righteousness with true faith. He certainly wasn't perfect, since he got drunk after the flood.

Amen, Bruce.

 

[iconbusters]

I would ask if you are an acolyte of Billy Graham but I guess you are not .

Are you an acolyte of John Calvin ?

I am a follower of Jesus Christ and His Word.

 

[iconbusters]

The question at hand is a simple and straightforward one: Does the Lord send those He loves to perdition? If so, then we need to define His love as conditional, contingent on what man does when confronted with the Gospel. But I have already shown that Adam and Eve could not and would not obey God: For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. There is none righteous, no not one. If they couldn't pass the test of obedience, neither can we. Therefore, if God's love was conditional, not one person would qualify.

But Scripture tells us His love, like all His attributes, is immutable and everlasting: Jeremiah 31:3; 1 John 4:10.
There is nothing natural in man that causes the Lord to love him. Thus, His love is unconditional and constant.

This is Good News for us Christians who are still sinners.
This truth is sufficient to prove once loved and saved, always loved and saved.

 

[miamited]

Hi iconbusters

Consider that all of those lost in the flood were preached the gospel when Jesus visited them while he was in the grave. God's love is really, truly perfect. For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son. That whosoever will believe in him will gain eternal life. That goes for all those in the grave before Jesus came to us.

 

[miamited]

If so, then we need to define His love as conditional, contingent on what man does when confronted with the Gospel.

Well, of course it is. That's what John 3:16 tells us. Those who believe in him gain eternal life.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The Bible doesn't say that Noah was sinless; he was blameless, which translates a Hebrew word that was used for the outwardly-blemish-free animal sacrifices. It was outward righteousness with true faith. He certainly wasn't perfect, since he got drunk after the flood.

No one's sinless except Christ.

 

[iconbusters]

Incredibly, there are a shocking number of professing Christians who believe God loved all those whom He purposely drowned in the Flood.
As if suffocation is an act of mercy.
The Apostle Paul cites Exodus 33 when writing Romans 9, teaching the immutable nature of God and the sovereignty of His will: I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy.
Mercy is an act of love. No mercy was shown the millions and millions He drowned. Not children, infants, the sick or elderly.
Rather than believe such a horrific event actually took place, many choose to think of it as nothing more than a fictitious legend. Others tend to dismiss it as 'that was then, this is now,' meaning God would never do such a vicious thing today because today He is much more tolerant and compassionate.
This mentality explains the teaching of the Episcopal Bishop Budde who pleaded with President Trump to have mercy on the gay, lesbian and transgender population. She did so "in the name of our God" because she, like so many others, believes God's view of sin has changed.
But has it really?
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
The Christ of the Bible had the habit of making enemies. All He had to do was quote the Scriptures. In Luke 4, Jesus read the words of Isaiah 61 during the temple service. The congregation was shocked at his admission of personally fulfilling that prophecy. But when He had the unmitigated gall to remind them of the fact that the Lord had chosen to feed and cure Gentiles, while purposely ignoring the Israelites in need, they rose up and attempted to kill Him.
Today that same truth - God's absolute freedom and right to save some, while choosing not to save others - is met with similar disdain, hatred and mocking.

 

[hawkman]

Hi iconbusters

Consider that all of those lost in the flood were preached the gospel when Jesus visited them while he was in the grave. God's love is really, truly perfect. For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son. That whosoever will believe in him will gain eternal life. That goes for all those in the grave before Jesus came to us.

I agree , not even sure what this thread is about .