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jasoncran
Member
sorry to derail this but it is relevant, i am believer and there seems to be problem with the issue of slavery. please pray , all that believe and search, and look at the verse that allow in the ot and the promises of the christ, isaih 61, and the book of philemon and the ephesians verse 6:5
your help will be apreciated.
your help will be apreciated.
Re: A fair challenge
We're talking about texts, which have to speak for themselves since behind them are authors with their own purposes, not courtrooms or science which have other concerns. You find me a historian that tries to harmonize all his historical sources because he believes all of them should say the same thing. He has to let the pieces fall into place (together or worlds apart) because his task is to get at the underlying truth. You already presuppose that the bible is inerrant. So all your harmonization is ad hoc, not objective. There's no reason to presuppose these documents are inerrant.
Finis,
Eric
follower of Christ said:
We're talking about texts, which have to speak for themselves since behind them are authors with their own purposes, not courtrooms or science which have other concerns. You find me a historian that tries to harmonize all his historical sources because he believes all of them should say the same thing. He has to let the pieces fall into place (together or worlds apart) because his task is to get at the underlying truth. You already presuppose that the bible is inerrant. So all your harmonization is ad hoc, not objective. There's no reason to presuppose these documents are inerrant.
Finis,
Eric
Re: A fair challenge
Here is irrefutable proof that the geneolgy of Christ is the inspired word of God and that it is inerrant and supernaturally supplied to us.
The Account of Christ's Genealogy
The first seventeen verses in the book of Matthew form a natural, logical division by themselves, for they deal with one particular subject, namely, the genealogy of Christ.
These first seventeen verses of the Greek New Testament consist of two main sections. (1) Verses 1-11. (2) Verses 12-17. Each section contains amazing numeric features in the structure of its text.
The following are a few examples of the facts or "sevens" which have been discovered beneath the surface of the first main section, verses 1-11.
FEATURE ONE. The number of Greek vocabulary words used in the first eleven verses is not 48, not 50, but exactly 49, or 7 7's.
It must be remembered that the number of vocabulary words in a passage is usually different from the total number of words in a passage. The vocabulary words are the different words used. For instance, the word "and" is one word in the vocabulary, but it may be repeated many times in the passage itself. A man may have a vocabulary of only five hundred words. With these five hundred different words he may write an essay of four thousand words. Some of the words, such as "and," "for," "by," etc., may be used over and over again. The number of vocabulary words, or the number of different words used in a passage, is thus not the same as the total number of words used. (We mentioned that the number of vocabulary words in the first eleven verses Matthew is exactly 49, or 7 7's. Now let us continue.)
FEATURE TWO. The number of letters in these 49 words is exactly 266, or 38 7's.
FEATURE THREE. Of these 266 letters of the vocabulary words, the number of vowels is exactly 140, or 20 7's. Of these 266 letters of the vocabulary, the number of consonants is 126, or 18 7's.
FEATURE FOUR. Of these 49 words, the number which begin with a vowel is exactly 28, or 4 7's. The number of words which begin with a consonant is 21, or 3 7's.
FEATURE FIVE. Of the 49 Greek vocabulary words, the number which are nouns is exactly 42, or 6 7's. The number which are not nouns is 7.
FEATURE SIX. Of the 42 nouns in the first eleven verses, the number which are proper nouns is exactly 35, or 5 's. The number which are common nouns is 7.
FEATURE SEVEN. The number of Greek letters in these 7 common nouns is exactly 49, or 7 7's. It is amazing to note that in these 7 common nouns alone, there are more than 20 numeric features.
FEATURE EIGHT. The number of times the 35 proper names occur is exactly 63, or 9 7's.
FEATURE NINE. Of the 35 proper names in the vocabulary of the first eleven verses of Matthew, the number of male names is exactly 28, or 4 7's. The number which are not male names is 7.
FEATURE TEN. The number of times these 28 male names occur is exactly 56, or 8 7's.
FEATURE ELEVEN. In these first 11 verses, three women are mentioned--Tamar, Rahab, and Ruth. The number of Greek letters in these three names is exactly 14, or 2 7's.
FEATURE TWELVE. Just one city is named in this passage, namely Babylon. The number of Greek letters in this word is exactly 7.
FEATURE THIRTEEN. Of these 49 Greek vocabulary words in the first eleven verses, the number of words which occur more than once is exactly 35, or 5 7's. The number of words which occur only once is 14, or 2 7's.
FEATURE FOURTEEN. Of these 49 Greek vocabulary words, the number which appear in only one form is exactly 42, or 6 7's. The number which appear in more than one form is 7.
These numeric facts or sevens are indeed beyond the view of mere "readers" of the Greek text. They are truly mysteriously hidden beneath the surface and can be discovered only by special searching and calculations.
It was stated that the first seventeen verses in the Greek New Testament consist of two main sections. (1) Verses 1-11. (2) Verses 12-17. The above are merely a few examples of the many amazing numerical features which have been discovered beneath the surface of the first section of eleven verses. The very structure of the passage is literally saturated with phenomenal occurrences of the number seven. The second section, verses 12-17, contains equally profound numeric features of its own.
Before we show how these facts or sevens scientifically prove the divine inspiration of the Bible, let us quickly and briefly point out a few additional examples from the Greek text of other New Testament passages.
The section following the first seventeen verses of Matthew is verses 18-25. In passing, we give space to mention only two of the many phenomenal numeric facts which have been discovered beneath the surface of this one passage.
BOOK OF MATTHEW, CHAPTER ONE, VERSES 18-25
The Account of Christ's Birth
FEATURE ONE. It is indeed interesting to note that the number of Greek vocabulary words in this passage is not 76, not 78, but exactly 77, or 11 7's. Also of special interest is--
FEATURE TWO. Of the 77 Greek vocabulary words, the number of words the angel used in speaking to Joseph is exactly 28, or 4 7's.
Even the angel's little speech has amazing numerical features all of its own. They are entirely separate from the rest of the passage, yet they form a part of the numerical features of the whole passage. They are intertwined in such a way that the entire passage contains remarkable occurrences of the number seven. This number strangely underlies the very structure of the passage in every conceivable manner. The Greek letters and words are literally permeated with amazing numeric features.
Following are merely two of many numerical facts which are strangely hidden beneath the surface of the second chapter of Matthew.
BOOK OF MATTHEW, CHAPTER TWO
The Account of Christ's Childhood
FEATURE ONE. The number of Greek vocabulary words in the second chapter of Matthew is exactly 161, or 23 7's.
FEATURE TWO. The number of Greek letters in these 161 words is exactly 896, or 128 7's.
There are several paragraphs in the second chapter of Matthew, and each paragraph has amazing numerical features all of its own. They are separate from the rest of the passage, yet in a peculiar and intricate way, they form a part of the amazing features of the whole chapter. They are intertwined in such a phenomenal way that the entire chapter is one great mathematical unit which consists of amazing numerical facts. For example, the number of Greek vocabulary words in the first six verses divides perfectly by 7. The number of vocabulary words is exactly 56, or 8 7's.
There are three speeches in the chapter. Herod speaks, the wise men speak, the angel speaks. Each speech shows numeric features in itself, yet each forms only part of the chapter, which as a whole has phenomenal features of its own. Each division alone shows the same numeric phenomena found in the chapter as a whole.
Now let us go on to the book of Mark and examine several passages. The same type of numerical phenomena that we found hidden in the structure of Matthew
wavy said:
Here is irrefutable proof that the geneolgy of Christ is the inspired word of God and that it is inerrant and supernaturally supplied to us.
The Account of Christ's Genealogy
The first seventeen verses in the book of Matthew form a natural, logical division by themselves, for they deal with one particular subject, namely, the genealogy of Christ.
These first seventeen verses of the Greek New Testament consist of two main sections. (1) Verses 1-11. (2) Verses 12-17. Each section contains amazing numeric features in the structure of its text.
The following are a few examples of the facts or "sevens" which have been discovered beneath the surface of the first main section, verses 1-11.
FEATURE ONE. The number of Greek vocabulary words used in the first eleven verses is not 48, not 50, but exactly 49, or 7 7's.
It must be remembered that the number of vocabulary words in a passage is usually different from the total number of words in a passage. The vocabulary words are the different words used. For instance, the word "and" is one word in the vocabulary, but it may be repeated many times in the passage itself. A man may have a vocabulary of only five hundred words. With these five hundred different words he may write an essay of four thousand words. Some of the words, such as "and," "for," "by," etc., may be used over and over again. The number of vocabulary words, or the number of different words used in a passage, is thus not the same as the total number of words used. (We mentioned that the number of vocabulary words in the first eleven verses Matthew is exactly 49, or 7 7's. Now let us continue.)
FEATURE TWO. The number of letters in these 49 words is exactly 266, or 38 7's.
FEATURE THREE. Of these 266 letters of the vocabulary words, the number of vowels is exactly 140, or 20 7's. Of these 266 letters of the vocabulary, the number of consonants is 126, or 18 7's.
FEATURE FOUR. Of these 49 words, the number which begin with a vowel is exactly 28, or 4 7's. The number of words which begin with a consonant is 21, or 3 7's.
FEATURE FIVE. Of the 49 Greek vocabulary words, the number which are nouns is exactly 42, or 6 7's. The number which are not nouns is 7.
FEATURE SIX. Of the 42 nouns in the first eleven verses, the number which are proper nouns is exactly 35, or 5 's. The number which are common nouns is 7.
FEATURE SEVEN. The number of Greek letters in these 7 common nouns is exactly 49, or 7 7's. It is amazing to note that in these 7 common nouns alone, there are more than 20 numeric features.
FEATURE EIGHT. The number of times the 35 proper names occur is exactly 63, or 9 7's.
FEATURE NINE. Of the 35 proper names in the vocabulary of the first eleven verses of Matthew, the number of male names is exactly 28, or 4 7's. The number which are not male names is 7.
FEATURE TEN. The number of times these 28 male names occur is exactly 56, or 8 7's.
FEATURE ELEVEN. In these first 11 verses, three women are mentioned--Tamar, Rahab, and Ruth. The number of Greek letters in these three names is exactly 14, or 2 7's.
FEATURE TWELVE. Just one city is named in this passage, namely Babylon. The number of Greek letters in this word is exactly 7.
FEATURE THIRTEEN. Of these 49 Greek vocabulary words in the first eleven verses, the number of words which occur more than once is exactly 35, or 5 7's. The number of words which occur only once is 14, or 2 7's.
FEATURE FOURTEEN. Of these 49 Greek vocabulary words, the number which appear in only one form is exactly 42, or 6 7's. The number which appear in more than one form is 7.
These numeric facts or sevens are indeed beyond the view of mere "readers" of the Greek text. They are truly mysteriously hidden beneath the surface and can be discovered only by special searching and calculations.
It was stated that the first seventeen verses in the Greek New Testament consist of two main sections. (1) Verses 1-11. (2) Verses 12-17. The above are merely a few examples of the many amazing numerical features which have been discovered beneath the surface of the first section of eleven verses. The very structure of the passage is literally saturated with phenomenal occurrences of the number seven. The second section, verses 12-17, contains equally profound numeric features of its own.
Before we show how these facts or sevens scientifically prove the divine inspiration of the Bible, let us quickly and briefly point out a few additional examples from the Greek text of other New Testament passages.
The section following the first seventeen verses of Matthew is verses 18-25. In passing, we give space to mention only two of the many phenomenal numeric facts which have been discovered beneath the surface of this one passage.
BOOK OF MATTHEW, CHAPTER ONE, VERSES 18-25
The Account of Christ's Birth
FEATURE ONE. It is indeed interesting to note that the number of Greek vocabulary words in this passage is not 76, not 78, but exactly 77, or 11 7's. Also of special interest is--
FEATURE TWO. Of the 77 Greek vocabulary words, the number of words the angel used in speaking to Joseph is exactly 28, or 4 7's.
Even the angel's little speech has amazing numerical features all of its own. They are entirely separate from the rest of the passage, yet they form a part of the numerical features of the whole passage. They are intertwined in such a way that the entire passage contains remarkable occurrences of the number seven. This number strangely underlies the very structure of the passage in every conceivable manner. The Greek letters and words are literally permeated with amazing numeric features.
Following are merely two of many numerical facts which are strangely hidden beneath the surface of the second chapter of Matthew.
BOOK OF MATTHEW, CHAPTER TWO
The Account of Christ's Childhood
FEATURE ONE. The number of Greek vocabulary words in the second chapter of Matthew is exactly 161, or 23 7's.
FEATURE TWO. The number of Greek letters in these 161 words is exactly 896, or 128 7's.
There are several paragraphs in the second chapter of Matthew, and each paragraph has amazing numerical features all of its own. They are separate from the rest of the passage, yet in a peculiar and intricate way, they form a part of the amazing features of the whole chapter. They are intertwined in such a phenomenal way that the entire chapter is one great mathematical unit which consists of amazing numerical facts. For example, the number of Greek vocabulary words in the first six verses divides perfectly by 7. The number of vocabulary words is exactly 56, or 8 7's.
There are three speeches in the chapter. Herod speaks, the wise men speak, the angel speaks. Each speech shows numeric features in itself, yet each forms only part of the chapter, which as a whole has phenomenal features of its own. Each division alone shows the same numeric phenomena found in the chapter as a whole.
Now let us go on to the book of Mark and examine several passages. The same type of numerical phenomena that we found hidden in the structure of Matthew
Re: A fair challenge
"The world itself and it's history is only confusion; one thing alone brings order therein -- the thought of God. All else adds to the confusion and makes it at last chaos"
Ivan Panin
If you are trying to "harmonize" the historical records of mankind as recorded by mankind with the word of God. Then you are barking up the wrong tree.
Panin said:
"The world itself and it's history is only confusion; one thing alone brings order therein -- the thought of God. All else adds to the confusion and makes it at last chaos"
Ivan Panin
If you are trying to "harmonize" the historical records of mankind as recorded by mankind with the word of God. Then you are barking up the wrong tree.
Aaron the Tall
Member
Panin,
That is quite a list of numerical insights. It may very well be true - but it seems a bit silly. Go present that to someone who is struggling with believing that God and the Bible are true and they will probably laugh. I think the real proof of Christianity is displayed in a changed life. Live the truth before men and they will believe it by your example before they will believe it based on Numerology. Maybe there is some numerology in the Bible, but I've seen some whacked out assumptions by people who have counted letters and words and assigned numerical values to them.
Here's a great Bible proof by a well known tv preacher:
That is quite a list of numerical insights. It may very well be true - but it seems a bit silly. Go present that to someone who is struggling with believing that God and the Bible are true and they will probably laugh. I think the real proof of Christianity is displayed in a changed life. Live the truth before men and they will believe it by your example before they will believe it based on Numerology. Maybe there is some numerology in the Bible, but I've seen some whacked out assumptions by people who have counted letters and words and assigned numerical values to them.
Here's a great Bible proof by a well known tv preacher:
Aaron the Tall said:
Yeah that's pretty whacked out bruv and it has nothing to do with me or the work of Ivan Panin, and I find the implication offensive.
What I presented isn't whacked, nor is it numerology and it is true. I'm presenting it to particular individual who is claiming, arrogantly and mockingly, that the bible is not the inerrant word of God, some one who is not a Christian.
But I'm happy for you to live a saintly life in front of him in-order to lead him to salvation, why dont you hook up with him?
In the mean time we believers can argue in front him and mock each other aswell. But that seems a bit silly.
Aaron the Tall
Member
I'm not saying that what you said isn't true. Again I haven't studied the matter.
There just seems to be other lines of thought that can prove the Bible's inerrancy that don't seem so far out there.
There just seems to be other lines of thought that can prove the Bible's inerrancy that don't seem so far out there.
Many times what we see in the Bible is not God's perfect will, but His permissive will.jasoncran said:
(For instance, the multiple wives in the OT.)
There were many poor people and captured people, but there were provisions in the law not to oppress them. If you found a homeless person, and provided him with food and shelter in exchange for work around the house...he could be called your slave. It's God's perfect will that man plants his own vineyard and eats the fruits thereof, but we still live in an imperfect world, so He permits...
Whatever our status in life, we're called to be servants to our fellow man.
Jesus demonstrated this in His life...washing the disciples feet was the outward sign.
In whatever position we find ourselves, we're to be content.Ephesians 6:5 said:
Phil. 4:11-13 said:
jasoncran
Member
good point i was seeing this, look at the verses on isiah 61, and i think that paul was hinting on a quiet slave protest ie they change the masters through the faith. if a believer has a slave he wont have a slave anymore, kinda of like the peaceful protests that ghandi and mlk used. civil disobedience at time was used but not active acts of agression or all out war.
Aaron the Tall said:
Well go ahead and prove it then and mind your own business.
It beats me how people cant see how truely amazing, vital, and valid Ivan Panins discoverires are, especially Christians, or perhaps you are just another agnostic with a bible, and this is a threat to your unbelief?
ProphetMark
Member
glorydaz said:
Why would God feel the need to always use the man's name when he wrote the bible and not use Mary's name just because she was a woman?
ProphetMark said:
Jasoncran is right. The Bible records the history of the Jews.
Luke recorded it as it was done back in that day.
Go back 75 years, more or less, and you'll see women couldn't own property here in the US.
It had to be in the husbands name.
Luke did make it clear, though, in how he wrote it, that it was Mary's record.
Everyone that lived during that time would have been shocked at any other way of doing it.
It's simply recorded history.
ProphetMark
Member
Why would God write the bible in a way that's only going to be understandable to people of a certain time and a certain part of the world, knowing that it would be confusing to everyone in the rest of time and the rest of the world?
glorydaz said:ProphetMark said:
Because it's written for the believers.
Like the parables, it requires spiritual discernmant.
Actually its written for unbelivers aswell, we where all unbelivers until we read it. But until you are born again, you are reading someone elses mail, that said, it is only the Holy SPirit that can ignite the word in the mind of an unbeliver and convert his soul.