Converting to Islam...Question for Christians

[theLords]

Muslims believe in the original gospel sent to Jesus, pbuh, but we do not believe that is the same gospel followed by Christians today. That being said, we do believe some of the original message is in there. Therefore, we MUST respect the Holy Bible, but the we don't need the Bible to prove our faith. The standards we use to determine what is true is that if it agrees with the Qur'an it is truth, if it does not, it is corrupt text. When Muslims or any other faith debates or discusses Biblical scripture we have to reference the bible because it is your Holy book. If I told you the Qur'an says this or that...what would you care? However, if I can show you errors or corruption in your own book that you claim to be from God or messages in your Bible that are being ignored, that should mean something. So, basically, we do believe there is some truth left in the Bible, but only to the point where it agrees with the scriptures in the Qur'an.

Okay, I see what you're saying it's your litmus test. But the issue in trying to show a Christian that the Bible is corrupt, is any Christian can't take your words seriously. Without the Holy Spirit to give you understanding you can't understand. Only God can reveal God. Man is too limited to be able to do this. You see the Bible is not the reason that I believe in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the reason I believe in the Bible. If I throw out the Bible, I still believe in Jesus Christ, I still have a path to salvation. But if a Muslim throws out the Qu'ran. If all the Qu'rans of the world disappeared there would be no more Islam. Christianity can survive without the Bible. Islam cannot. [survive without the Qu'ran]

Because we don't believe Jesus, pbuh, is God, no we absolutely do not look for that from Him. We believe we do have a direct line to God Almighty because He is the only one we pray to. Our relationship with Him is following His laws and worshipping as He ordained us to worship.

Okay let me change this question, don't you want a close intimate personal relationship with your god? Don't you want to hear him laugh, see him smile, hear him sing, sit and dine with him? Don't you want to know his heart and tell him all about yours?

 

[Hana]

This is a neat thread.

I sense some of the posts made by our Muslim friends are bordering on pantheism. So I’d like to ask this question of them:

Isn’t Islam works-based?

Do you take my question? If you don’t maintain proper behavior you lose favor with God, right?

In Christianity, of course, God’s favor for His elect is unmerited. He created us (put His Spirit within us) for the purpose of our doing His predetermined good works. Once the Spirit is there, the works we are able to do convince us of God’s presence within us.

-HisSheep

Peace to you HisSheep:

We believe God is the creator of ALL things, including the Prophets who He chose to deliver his messages. Because Islam is all encompassing...meaning it covers government, how to treat our parents, how to live, dress, eat, etc., etc., we try to live our lives as He has ordained us to live it. You have to understand that He has given us things that are allowed, not permitted, and permitted, but is best to avoid it. So, yes, we speak of good deeds and bad deeds and on the day of judgment we will be held accountable for them. However, as a Muslim if I do something not permitted or sin and I turn to Him for forgiveness with all sincerity, we believe we will be forgiven. We know He is all merciful and more forgiving and loving than we could even hope to imagine. Most Muslims on the day of judgment will have more good deeds than bad because it's not hard. For example, even a smile is considered charity and a good deed. Our deeds are how we practice our faith and worship Him. In Islam, we don't have anyone to take our sins from us. We own them and will be held responsible for them.

Hope this answers your question.

With peace,
Hana

 

[theLords]

Peace to you theLords:

Yes, it would still hold foundation because it still says depart from me you workers of lawlessness. To us it means, shoo shoo, leave me you refused to follow what I taught and created a lawless people. But, the fact is, we can't just remove something and say "now what?" If we did that anyone could make the text do whatever it wanted. How scary is that?

With peace,
Hana

Can you explain this a little bit more? Another translation of that verse is "depart from me you workers of inequity." So it can't have the meaning you give it. But you still didn't answer (unless I missed it)

Q: Why would Jesus say "I never knew you?"

I think you miss understood me about "leave out the words..."

I meant if you don't include the words "I never knew you" then your interpretation doesn't make sense.

 

[Danus]

Professing Christ as the Son of God is an unforgivable sin in Islam because it lowers the status of God to our own status...his creations. I think my other post might give more insight. If not, please let me know.

Muslims believe in the original gospel sent to Jesus, pbuh, but we do not believe that is the same gospel followed by Christians today. That being said, we do believe some of the original message is in there. Therefore, we MUST respect the Holy Bible, but the we don't need the Bible to prove our faith. The standards we use to determine what is true is that if it agrees with the Qur'an it is truth, if it does not, it is corrupt text. When Muslims or any other faith debates or discusses Biblical scripture we have to reference the bible because it is your Holy book. If I told you the Qur'an says this or that...what would you care? However, if I can show you errors or corruption in your own book that you claim to be from God or messages in your Bible that are being ignored, that should mean something. So, basically, we do believe there is some truth left in the Bible, but only to the point where it agrees with the scriptures in the Qur'an.

Let's talk a little more about this.

If you do not believe the NT of the Holly Bible, but you do believe some of it, what of it do you believe? Let's focus on the synoptic Gospels Since you mentioned; "Muslims believe in the original gospel sent to Jesus."

In other words, we have the gospels of Jesus Christ found in Matthew, Mark, and Luke...we also have John who was an eye witness to Christ......your quote again..."Muslims believe in the original gospel sent to Jesus, but we do not believe that is the same gospel followed by Christians today." ....the gospels I've mentioned are the gospels followed by Christians today.....tell me what you know of the original gospels. I'm leaving this open for you since I'm not sure where you are coming from, but start with the historical record of Christ and tell me why it's wrong and what the Muslim version is please.

 

[theLords]

Muslims dont give Jesus(AS) powers he does not have - he is not Omnipotent - God, the One, the Unique, is - he is not omnipresent - God the Creator, The Most Powerful, is. If God informs Jesus(AS) of this world - then Jesus becomes aware of it - If God allows Jesus(AS) to hear us - then jesus(AS) hears us - but our worship is not meant for him - it is meant for the One whom Jesus(AS) worshiped - God. Hindus may same the same thing about Vishnu - does Vishnu hear their pain, hear their prayers - or are they worshiping a graven image with no divine power?

What would you say to a Hindu who tells you Vishnu heals his heart and answers his prayers?

We know God - we strive for Him - the One who has been worshipped in His oneness until 325ad when chrisrtianity made Jesus'(AS) divinity official. We throw ourselves before God who created us - not a created being who never claimed divinity. We receive the 43rd part of revelation via dreams from our Master - God. We Transform hearts to want God alone - not His creation.

As far as refering to god as "Father" - this not an Islamic practice - but not forbidden if by Father, I mean the supreme creator - I use the term "the father" when talking to you guys because I wish to clarify whom I worship (Allah,Yahweh, The Father, God, Eloheim, El, Hashem) and who I dont - Jesus(AS) - but its not forbidden.

So I would say a Muslim knows Jesus(AS) better than a christian because we know his true station - and do not attribute that which Jesus(AS) finds deplorable to him.

You're missing the point. Christianity teaches that God reaches down to men. That He reveals Himself to men. How can a Muslim know Jesus better if He has never met Christ? The basis of the Christian foundation is God reveals himself to you personally. So how can someone who has never met Christ, claim to know Him better? Can you answer from that perspective?

If a Hindu told me those things, I would point him in the right direction because he's hungry for God.

 

[theLords]

Why do we need Jesus(AS) to experience this? We can experience God directly in the same manner - Muslims deliver the same types of testimonies in this regard - but on a higher level - rather than dinig with our God, we swim in the oceans of His Majesty (Jalal) - and bathe in the waters of His mercy (Rahma)

I'm asking from the perspective of "Don't you want to know your god." Not mine.

Swimming in his majesty or mercy does not give you a personal relationship with your god. Today I have taken in 17,280-23,040 breaths. I have been swimming in the mercy of my Lord all day. It doesn't give me a close intimate relationship with God though.

 

[Hana]

Okay, I see what you're saying it's your litmus test. But the issue in trying to show a Christian that the Bible is corrupt, is any Christian can't take your words seriously. Without the Holy Spirit to give you understanding you can't understand. Only God can reveal God. Man is too limited to be able to do this. You see the Bible is not the reason that I believe in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the reason I believe in the Bible. If I throw out the Bible, I still believe in Jesus Christ, I still have a path to salvation. But if a Muslim throws out the Qu'ran. If all the Qu'rans of the world disappeared there would be no more Islam. Christianity can survive without the Bible. Islam cannot. [survive without the Qu'ran]

Peace to you theLords:

Man, can you type fast!!!! lol

See, this is the difference between our views. We can take the Qur'an and Hadeeth, and for the most part, understand perfectly. Obviously, we are not all scholars so it's necessary to sometimes turn to them for clarification. We don't need the Holy Spirit to understand how to worship God. You can burn all the Qur'ans and its translations and it won't make a difference. Thousands have the entire Qur'an memorized exactly how it was revealed. An interesting side note, the word Qur'an means "recite". The Qur'an is being recited every minute of every day because we pray 5 times a day, when one area is finished praying one prayer time, another is starting....and so it goes on forever. Even without the Qur'an, I still believe in Jesus, Abraham, Noah, Muhammed, (pbuta), and for sure God. There is no difference between Christianity and Islam in that regard. Because I destroy your Holy Book doesn't mean I destroy your faith...same goes for me.

I can easily show you problems with biblical text and errors in the bible, etc., but I'm sure you would simply accept them or tell me I just don't have the spirit to understand or even offer explanations. That's ok, no problem and I accept that...this is your faith. For me, I found Islam to be easy to understand and have never been told, "just have faith". We both believe God guides whom He wills. So, for you I would not be able to understand because I don't have the spirit to guide me...for me, God has kept your eyes covered not allowing you to see.

Okay let me change this question, don't you want a close intimate personal relationship with your god? Don't you want to hear him laugh, see him smile, hear him sing, sit and dine with him? Don't you want to know his heart and tell him all about yours?

As mere humans we have limited knowledge and understanding so we apply attributes to God that we can understand. Muslims do not apply these human attributes to Him...He is far beyond that, far beyond our comprehension. We believe He absolutely knows our heart and we do pray to God for guidance in everything we do. We become close to God by submitting to Him, at least, 5 times a day, praying to Him for guidance and trusting He will answer all our prayers in the way that is best for us. I only need Him to know MY heart and intentions. We know he is all merciful, all just, all forgiving, all loving, etc. The creator knows His creations better than we do. The creations worship the creator...not the other way around.

I hope this clarifies for you.

With peace,
Hana

 

[Hana]

Can you explain this a little bit more? Another translation of that verse is "depart from me you workers of inequity." So it can't have the meaning you give it. But you still didn't answer (unless I missed it)

Q: Why would Jesus say "I never knew you?"

I think you miss understood me about "leave out the words..."

I meant if you don't include the words "I never knew you" then your interpretation doesn't make sense.

Peace to you theLords:

He would say "I never knew you" because you weren't following what He taught. Therefore, you didn't learn from Him.

Yes, it would stil make sense because He's telling you to get away from him. He said even though you did all these things in His name, that is not what He taught. He has always taught he does things not by His will, but the will of the Father. So, by attributing all these things to Him and worshipping Him instead of your creator and His, you will not enter paradise.

BUT, you can't just not include His words and say, "now it doesn't fit". He DID say those words so we can't use the what if here. Basically, if my grandmother had wheels, then she'd be a wagon. We can't discuss scripture by saying "what if something wasn't there, then you have no basis in foundation."

I hope that makes sense. lol

With peace,
Hana

 

[theLords]

Peace to you theLords:

Man, can you type fast!!!! lol

See, this is the difference between our views. We can take the Qur'an and Hadeeth, and for the most part, understand perfectly. Obviously, we are not all scholars so it's necessary to sometimes turn to them for clarification. We don't need the Holy Spirit to understand how to worship God. You can burn all the Qur'ans and its translations and it won't make a difference. Thousands have the entire Qur'an memorized exactly how it was revealed. An interesting side note, the word Qur'an means "recite". The Qur'an is being recited every minute of every day because we pray 5 times a day, when one area is finished praying one prayer time, another is starting....and so it goes on forever. Even without the Qur'an, I still believe in Jesus, Abraham, Noah, Muhammed, (pbuta), and for sure God. There is no difference between Christianity and Islam in that regard. Because I destroy your Holy Book doesn't mean I destroy your faith...same goes for me.

I can easily show you problems with biblical text and errors in the bible, etc., but I'm sure you would simply accept them or tell me I just don't have the spirit to understand or even offer explanations. That's ok, no problem and I accept that...this is your faith. For me, I found Islam to be easy to understand and have never been told, "just have faith". We both believe God guides whom He wills. So, for you I would not be able to understand because I don't have the spirit to guide me...for me, God has kept your eyes covered not allowing you to see.

I can type 100+ wpm! LOL.

But see you didn't grasp the point I was trying to make. If the Bible and all traces of the Bible are erased from the earth, and all the people who know of the Bible and what's in it are erased from the earth, Christianity can still survive.

But if we do the same thing to the Qu'ran the same is not true. Do you get me now?

And the point that I'm trying to make about needing the Holy Spirit to understand the Bible, is that only God can reveal God. Man cannot presume to understand God. By hiding His secrets in the Bible, God essentially forces man to seek Him and ask Him for understanding.

Also, if you god has blinded me, he's not very nice

As mere humans we have limited knowledge and understanding so we apply attributes to God that we can understand. Muslims do not apply these human attributes to Him...He is far beyond that, far beyond our comprehension. We believe He absolutely knows our heart and we do pray to God for guidance in everything we do. We become close to God by submitting to Him, at least, 5 times a day, praying to Him for guidance and trusting He will answer all our prayers in the way that is best for us. I only need Him to know MY heart and intentions. We know he is all merciful, all just, all forgiving, all loving, etc. The creator knows His creations better than we do. The creations worship the creator...not the other way around.

I hope this clarifies for you.

With peace,
Hana

And that's not what I'm asking. I asked "Don't you, Hana, want to know god the same way you get to know a friend?"

Cause, sadly, it seems in Islam there is no way to have such a friendship with God, and that is the only reason I can't become a Muslim. I would lose my best friend :verysad:bigcry

 

[theLords]

When I use that imagery I am refering to a incomprehensible Union with God - not taking advantage of the daily mercy and sustenance God provides to every creation. What Im saying is Muslims do know our God - we have an intimate relationship with God - the same ones you say you have with Jesus(AS). We just remove the created being of Jesus(AS) from the equation.

I did not know this about Muslims. What's your personal relationship with Allah like?

 

[Hana]

Let's talk a little more about this.

If you do not believe the NT of the Holly Bible, but you do believe some of it, what of it do you believe? Let's focus on the synoptic Gospels Since you mentioned; "Muslims believe in the original gospel sent to Jesus."

In other words, we have the gospels of Jesus Christ found in Matthew, Mark, and Luke...we also have John who was an eye witness to Christ......your quote again..."Muslims believe in the original gospel sent to Jesus, but we do not believe that is the same gospel followed by Christians today." ....the gospels I've mentioned are the gospels followed by Christians today.....tell me what you know of the original gospels. I'm leaving this open for you since I'm not sure where you are coming from, but start with the historical record of Christ and tell me why it's wrong and what the Muslim version is please.

Peace to you Danus:
Oh man, this could take pages and pages and pages. lol We believe in all previous revelations from the Prophets...in their original form. The Zaboor, the Torah and the Injeel.

For example, both the Bible and Qur'an talk about the Virgin Birth...we accept this. The Bible speaks about the teachings of Jesus denying divinity...we accept this.
The Bible teaches "The Lord Thy God is One God"...we accept this.

The Bible teaches Original Sin...we do not accept this.
The Bible teaches the Resurrection...we do not accept this.

I couldn't possibly list everywhere the Qur'an agrees with the Bible...I'm simply not that bright. lol The list would be vast.

Hope this helps,

With peace,
Hana

 

[theLords]

which in turn pleases Jesus(AS).

How do you know what pleases Jesus if you've never met Him?

 

[Hana]

Peace to you Danus:
Oh man, this could take pages and pages and pages. lol We believe in all previous revelations from the Prophets...in their original form. The Zaboor, the Torah and the Injeel.

For example, both the Bible and Qur'an talk about the Virgin Birth...we accept this. The Bible speaks about the teachings of Jesus denying divinity...we accept this.
The Bible teaches "The Lord Thy God is One God"...we accept this.

The Bible teaches Original Sin...we do not accept this.
The Bible teaches the Resurrection...we do not accept this.

I couldn't possibly list everywhere the Qur'an agrees with the Bible...I'm simply not that bright. lol The list would be vast.

Hope this helps,

With peace,
Hana

Sorry, I didn't respond to what I know of the original gospels. What I know of the original gospels and the previous revelations, is that none exist. There are no originals left anywhere to go back to. What we do have is the MOST RECENT documents. These documents differ from each other as older documents are discovered. Obviously the older the document, the closer it is to the source, so the more accurate it would be. The oldest documents, for example, do not say Jesus, pbuh, was begotten. The oldest documents do not have the "there are 3 that bare witness" quote that is in the bible today.

Again, this could probably be in its own thread as it is a very vast topic.

With peace,
Hana

 

[theLords]

Peace to you theLords:

He would say "I never knew you" because you weren't following what He taught. Therefore, you didn't learn from Him.

Yes, it would stil make sense because He's telling you to get away from him. He said even though you did all these things in His name, that is not what He taught. He has always taught he does things not by His will, but the will of the Father. So, by attributing all these things to Him and worshipping Him instead of your creator and His, you will not enter paradise.

BUT, you can't just not include His words and say, "now it doesn't fit". He DID say those words so we can't use the what if here. Basically, if my grandmother had wheels, then she'd be a wagon. We can't discuss scripture by saying "what if something wasn't there, then you have no basis in foundation."

I hope that makes sense. lol

With peace,
Hana

I understand what you're saying. But you're not understanding my question, lol!

It's okay, though!

 

[Hana]

How do you know what pleases Jesus if you've never met Him?

Peace to you theLords:

In the end, it doesn't matter to a Muslim if it pleases Jesus, pbuh, it only matters if it pleases God. Jesus, pbuh, wants us to follow the message He was sent to deliver, so one would think it would make Him happy, but the message is not His own...it's a message from God.

With peace,
Hana

 

[theLords]

Peace to you theLords:

In the end, it doesn't matter to a Muslim if it pleases Jesus, pbuh, it only matters if it pleases God. Jesus, pbuh, wants us to follow the message He was sent to deliver, so one would think it would make Him happy, but the message is not His own...it's a message from God.

With peace,
Hana

But you're missing the question.

Coincidentally, you've answered it right here, so one would think it would make Him happy. The farthest you can go is to say "you can only think this pleases Jesus."

You're absolutely right, in the end all that matters is what God thinks. But to a Christian, Jesus Christ, is God. So that changes everything.

 

[Hana]

I understand what you're saying. But you're not understanding my question, lol!

It's okay, though!

Sorry I was trying to understand, really I was! (Looks down, kicks the ground).

 

[Hana]

But you're missing the question.

Coincidentally, you've answered it right here, so one would think it would make Him happy. The farthest you can go is to say "you can only think this pleases Jesus."

You're absolutely right, in the end all that matters is what God thinks. But to a Christian, Jesus Christ, is God. So that changes everything.

Yes, exactly right. Therein lies the major differences in our beliefs.

 

[theLords]

Yes, exactly right. Therein lies the major differences in our beliefs.

Right but that was the point of the conversation. Who knows Jesus more, a Christian or a Muslim?

 

[Hana]

Right but that was the point of the conversation. Who knows Jesus more, a Christian or a Muslim?

IMO...a Muslim. lol

This is because we follow exactly as he wanted us to. We don't believe the Chrsitians of today do that. I think brother MA explained it much better than I did. What he said was absolutely right in that we can't deny the love Christians have for Jesus, pbuh. What we say is that you love Him so much you gave Him the same status as God. For a Muslim, we can never do that because there is only one God and we don't accept the trinity. We love Muhammed, pbuh, in the same way we love and revere Jesus, pbuh. But, none of the Prophets could ever compare to God.