CONVICTION...

[childeye]

=glorydaz;585311]As you can see, God gives all power to man to choose life. At least read and consider what the Word actually says.

Sorry glorydaz but I believe you are mistaken as to what scripture says. I agree that God gives to men the power to choose life according to His election or discretion, which acknowledges His grace, but I do not acknowledge that God gave man the power to choose death. Please understand that man could not choose life once we had eaten of the knowledge of good and evil even as God cannot lie. For If we could choose life after God said we would surely die, we prove God a liar and Satan true.

Therefore, the law was not given because men were capable of keeping it, as Satan proclaims. It was given to show we could not keep it because sin was present in us as God proclaims.
Romans 3:19-20

King James Version (KJV)



19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Originally Posted by Deut. 30:10-20
10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

We see a big "IF" that shows clearly the possibility to do what God says.

You are coming from an Old Testament mindset. Correction, we see a big "if" showing also the possibility we will not keep it. Your view takes the side of accusation founded upon the presumption that we could keep the law if only we willed to do so. But scripture shows despite our will to do the law, we don't do it because of sin dwelling in our flesh. Romans 7:13-17

King James Version (KJV)



13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.



So it is definitive in my reasoning that since God gave the law to make sin known as a power keeping man from being able to attain the righteous requirement of the law, how is it you say men have always had the possibility of keeping it? You dispute the entire Gospel with such an assertion. To reiterate, only he who was without sin could keep the law, For Jesus came to put away such sin by condemning sin in the flesh.

11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. "It is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off." Clearly shown in the conscience of man...no deception there, anywhere.

I have not claimed the commandment is far off or hidden so I don't see the relevance of this scripture as correcting me in any way.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

We don't need to go anywhere to hear and do it.

The scripture is not saying we can do the laws. It is not giving us excuse to say we didn't know what was required so that we would not be able to do it. Remember that God's goal is making sin known in man. A man must try to do the law and fail so he can be convinced he is a sinner. This will not happen if he says I didn't try because I didn't know what was required by God.

13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

same

Yes, same misapplication of scripture. Please note however that the whole premise of God's anticipating what men will say, is based on His knowing that men think righteousness is dependent on their obedience to written commandments so as to be told what is good and righteous behavior, when in fact righteousness behavior is dependent upon God's Love dwelling in the person without the need to go anywhere and get ordinances. That is the faith of Christ. This faith works by Love. That's why we say, whoever confesses with the heart that Jesus is the Christ and believes God has raised him from the dead shall be saved.
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

God is near - everything about Him is written in our conscience. (Rom. 1)

I don't disagree.

15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; It's set before us...good and evil (conscience) life and death.

Once again, misapplication of scripture. This is Old Testament. It is not saying God gave us a conscience at this point as you seem to be implying. Good and evil and a conscience were made known to us when we first ate of the knowledge of good and evil.

16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

The promise if we obey.

This is a covenant with death not Life. For we need not point out "if" we obey. We did not obey already, so all that is left is to be honest and admit we all have falied and sinned and the only promise we can count on from the Old Testament is men will die if they think they can be good of their own volition, or in other words walking after the flesh rather than the Spirit.

17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

Man's choice to turn away..

No it does not signify man's choice in any way. The very essence of all of the commandments is to inform you, that you have no choice. These things you must do or die.

18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

Impending judgment if we choose to turn away.

Yes I already said that. But of course as I've also pointed out, this is water under the bridge so to speak since we are now in The New Testament declaring all men have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. I say this in direct opposition to your ongoing contention to advocate that we could have chose to achieve God's Glory. Just because God gave us opportunity to prove we could achieve God's glory does not mean we could have. For this reason Paul says our lie, "Freewill to choose to be good or evil", only proves God to be true. Which is why the argument that we can choose to achieve God's glory through self-will even as Satan desired, is falling flat on it's face.

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

A RECORD IN HEAVEN that God has set before us life and death. Obviously the ability to choose is on record.
Yes the ability

Yes, I don't teach we don't ignorantly think we choose to be good or evil, I teach we can choose all we want, but without the Spirit of God in us our choice to be good is vanity. We therefore can desire or will to be good, but goodness is not at our discretion. It is an attribute of the Spirit of God which is why we must be born again. Moreover the proof is in the scripture for heaven and earth are called to record this day against not for.

20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

The Promise.

Yes this day recorded against us shall in the end after the law proving us all liars and sinners, and that there is nothing good in man apart from God, will cause us to Love God and teach us to follow His voice and cause us to cleave to Him because He is Life.

Actually, members of the body aren't written in the book of life until they become members of the body....are saved by grace through faith. The overcomers...those born of God. Does God have foreknowledge of who will come, certainly. He's God.

God in His foreknowledge not only saw all things from the beginning, but knows how to turn death into life and evil into good. Therefore He has written the names of the members of Christ's body in the book before they ever believed. Note Jesus calls each one of his sheep by name and does not call everyone at once and then take the names of those who answer.

God sifts alright...on the Day of the Lord. The wheat from the chaff. Determinism is not even found in the Word of God.

That is determinism that God sifts.

Believers are the peculiar people, the holy nation, the body of Christ. It isn't complicated and shouldn't be complicated by the musings of men.

Whose complicating it? Love God with all your heart mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself. Love Love is not complicated to me. What complicates thing are people saying Love is our choice and to choose not to Love is freedom. I marvel at such blindness. For I have felt Love and know I did not choose it to come. And even if I would run from it because of what it requires in my sacrifice it is Love that turns me around and shows me my fears were unfounded. How else do you explain my rejoicing over tribulation, because I chose to? How is it that suffering for the sake of Love makes one feel great, because we choose to?

God foreknew who would come. He predestined that those who would answer His call would be conformed to the image of His Son...just as we are being conformed right now. These are the believers. Those who have answered His call to come. "Come unto me all you who labor....." Those He also justified by faith, and will glorify in the future.

I can agree with this, but I would also say He predestined that there would be those who answered His call. I do this for the sake of recognizing Him as the Light of man. Please note that without light men cannot see. Please read the parable of the eyes are the lamps of the soul. It is all there.

 

[childeye]

Yes, we know you're special, that God allows you to believe and not others.. and that God's purpose would be so that men can't say that they have freewill.

That about says it all right there.. lol

I'd bet that you also believe that you don't sin..

Well I see it as giving glory to God since I speak in His name and not my own as you imply. I would point out that in the garden, God said if we eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil we would surely die. For God to be true, we could not after eating simply choose to live. It was Satan who said we could live regardless, for through the knowledge of good and evil we could choose to be good and be like God. This reveals an ignorance that supposes goodness (life) is attainable through the acquiring of knowledge that allows one to choose between good and evil. This is righteousness by works, Old Testament stuff. You need to try and see why I say that, instead of ignoring it by attacking my character. As far as sin goes, I would never say I don't sin as God knows I have not sold everything I own and given it to the poor.

John 6:45

King James Version (KJV)


45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Why hate these whom God has taught, by claiming they think they are special? God has made them special unto Him for His names sake.

 

[Eventide]

Well I see it as giving glory to God since I speak in His name and not my own as you imply.

Well, that's not all you speak.. you also said that God allowed you to believe but not them.. evidently that makes you pretty special if you believe that God allowed you to believe and yet does not allow this for all men.

I would point out that in the garden, God said if we eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil we would surely die. For God to be true, we could not after eating simply choose to live.

Who has said we could live ?

It was Satan who said we could live regardless, for through the knowledge of good and evil we could choose to be good and be like God. This reveals an ignorance that supposes goodness (life) is attainable through the acquiring of knowledge that allows one to choose between good and evil.

I think that you're ignorant of the fact that nobody denies these things.. what people typically contend for with respect to freewill is that men are able to hear the gospel and then trust in Christ to be saved.

This is righteousness by works, Old Testament stuff. You need to try and see why I say that, instead of ignoring it by attacking my character.

I have heard what you say.. I simply disagree with most of it.. like how you believe that God allows you to believe and yet doesn't allow this for all men.. or how that His purpose in that would be so that men will not claim that they have freewill.. if repeating what you say is attacking your character in your opinion, then so be it.

As far as sin goes, I would never say I don't sin as God knows I have not sold everything I own and given it to the poor.

Why not, if you don't have freewill, then what's holding you up..? Is it God ?

45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Why hate these whom God has taught, by claiming they think they are special? God has made them special unto Him for His names sake.

Why do you think that I hate you..? Is it because I disagree with what you believe ? You have made it clear that you believe that God had to allow you to believe and that He doesn't do this same thing for all men.. you also have said that you believe that His purpose in this is so that men can't say that they have freewill..

I disagree... that doesn't mean that I hate you, it means that I disagree with you, regardless of the fact that you think that you have been taught this by God.. I don't see God teaching these things that you believe.. and I believe that I've been taught by God too... not a big deal to disagree.

 

[glorydaz]

Sorry glorydaz but I believe you are mistaken as to what scripture says. I agree that God gives to men the power to choose life according to His election or discretion, which acknowledges His grace, but I do not acknowledge that God gave man the power to choose death.

That response to my post was really hard to follow, but I'll take a bite at it.

It's odd to me that you refuse to see any truth in the verses I provided, claiming God does give man the power to choose life "according to His election or discretion." That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, and you won't even provide a verse to support your theory. And man can freely choose life but not death????? I have to say, Danus, that seems to come off the top of your head.

The Word is very clear...it's recorded in heaven that God sets before us life and death, and He encourages us to choose life. (For he is not willing that any should perish.)

Please understand that man could not choose life once we had eaten of the knowledge of good and evil even as God cannot lie. For If we could choose life after God said we would surely die, we prove God a liar and Satan true.

You seem really confused about what went on in the garden. Perhaps we should have a thread on that.

This has nothing to do with choosing life because of eating of the tree of knowlege, or that it would prove God a liar. Because man ate of that tree, he was kicked out of the garden so he would be unable to eat of the tree of life, and thus live forever.

This is when physical death came into the world.

Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Of course you're FREE to believe I'm "mistaken" about this verse, but I'm quite comfortable with letting others decide whether it has any merit in our discussion of man's free will. It speaks for itself, and your "explanation" is pretty........odd, for lack of a better word.

To me, this is what's presented to us today. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved or reject the good news and die. Same story...different day.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

 

[childeye]

=Eventide;585398]Well, that's not all you speak.. you also said that God allowed you to believe but not them.. evidently that makes you pretty special if you believe that God allowed you to believe and yet does not allow this for all men.

So at one time, I did not believe in Jesus as the son of God, and I cared not whether I believed or not. Then at a later time when I desperately needed help, I sought God, for there was nowhere else that I could hope in. After God showed me His son Jesus, I was unable to not believe as before I was unable to believe nor even care. I thank God for showing me therefore, and do not lie and claim that I chose to believe but rather that I was convinced by seeing the Truth that God by His grace had revealed. So it is even now, I have not said God does not allow other men to see although we all are born in ignorance, for He is able to convince a man into believing which is what I testify to and I assume He may do so in due time according to His purpose to anyone he wishes.

Who has said we could live ?

Satan said we could live. God said we would die. I assumed you believe we can choose to live because God said choose life or death in the Old Testament. Forgive me, perhaps I have yours and glorydaz' doctrines confused.

I think that you're ignorant of the fact that nobody denies these things..

Maybe so, please by all means, correct my ignorance. For I don't see where God gave men the option to disobey Him as freewill claims, I only see the devil saying we can.

what people typically contend for with respect to freewill is that men are able to hear the gospel and then trust in Christ to be saved.

Yes I am not ignorant of that. But I gave you scripture that explains that, "for he that hath". And I would ask you to pardon my ignorance here, but it seems because Jesus' words don't agree with your contention that all men must be able to believe so that they can have the option to not believe, you take it out on me. Personally I don't believe men must have the option to disbelieve so as to believe. Light does not exist for the sake of darkness nor does the Truth exist for the sake of lies.

I have heard what you say.. I simply disagree with most of it.. like how you believe that God allows you to believe and yet doesn't allow this for all men..

Correction, I maintain that God may yet reveal Himself to all men in due time.

or how that His purpose in that would be so that men will not claim that they have freewill..

Here I must backtrack to what is said above. For you implied above you do not disagree that we cannot choose life after eating the fruit and are doomed to die. Is that correct? And I assume you know that God never said we could disobey God but Satan did. I say this so as to recognize that half of "freewill", the disobeying part, came from Satan who said we could disobey and live. It is my contention That God seeks to prove Satan a liar about this. So it is that many who teach freewill say we can choose to live or die because God said, I place before you life and death, choose life; and God is refering to the letter of the law. This is Old Testament of "righteousness by the works of the law". It's as if God said, prove that you can earn life by your own will.

Now I will assume you do not mean that supposed "freewill" that failed to choose life but rather was slain by sin as Paul said, "sin taking occasion of the law deceived me and slew me". I therefore assume by "freewill" you mean we can choose to have life by believing in the Christ, which denies the Old Testament "freewill" that supposes we can choose life by doing the laws of God but cannot perform what it has assumed it could.

So having admitted that the Old Testament has proven we have sin and cannot keep the commandments and have life even though we would choose life if we could, God has been proven right regarding freewill. Now you claim that a man can yet claim he chose to believe in Christ and this is "freewill" while I maintain that it must be given to a man by God to come to Christ even as the Lord himself said. Moreover Paul said God chose the lowly to put to nought the high things. So God chooses the humble over the lofty. And the very purpose of this is clear to me, that men not boast that they did it by their "freewill".

Why not, if you don't have freewill, then what's holding you up..? Is it God ?

I'm afraid to take my family into the streets to live.

I don't see God teaching these things that you believe.. and I believe that I've been taught by God too... not a big deal to disagree.

Then why the derogatory slander that says I think I'm special, when clearly I have said God makes men special? Satan didn't know he was made special by God but rather thought he was special by his own "freewill". Forfreewill implies you are in control of your destiny. And so he says in his heart, I shall ascend my throne above the stars of heaven even unto the throne of God. So let me put it to you this way, if you are saying I think I'm special because I have a freewill then you have made me out like Satan. If you are saying I am special by God's grace I will agree as this is unto God's glory. And that is why I do not claim to have chosen to believe God by my freewill.

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;585444]That response to my post was really hard to follow, but I'll take a bite at it.

It's odd to me that you refuse to see any truth in the verses I provided, claiming God does give man the power to choose life "according to His election or discretion."

The biggest problem is you present Old Testament scripture about choosing life by doing the works of the law as proof we can choose of our freewill, when the Old Testament shows that despite our choice or desire to live, we could not perform the law and so it became death to us regardless of our will for it to not be so.

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, and you won't even provide a verse to support your theory.

I gave you scripture in post #71.

And man can freely choose life but not death????? I have to say, Danus, that seems to come off the top of your head.

Well, if because of sin, we cannot by our freewill choose life by performing the law, we are by default doomed to die because of sin. As such we did not choose this by our freewill as it is sin that causes us to die through default. God must provide a covering so that I may stand in His presence. My own coverings or frail attempts at righteousness are filthy rags so He has provided glorius robes.

The Word is very clear...it's recorded in heaven that God sets before us life and death, and He encourages us to choose life. (For he is not willing that any should perish.)

You mix two differing and opposing views of freewill when you apply Old Testament righteousness of works of the law with New Testament righteousness of grace through faith.

You seem really confused about what went on in the garden. Perhaps we should have a thread on that.

Doesn't seem confusing to me. It's the simplest way to approach it. God said to not eat or we would die and Satan said go ahead and eat, you will not die. My desire is to not make that same mistake as Adam and so I explore why he did what he did. Moreover, we now are born in sin and we are as those who think they see yet are blind in hypocrisy and it is not mine to say I see, but say it is God who gives sight. Consider the Pharisees who were so self righteous, so as to blame the sinner for his condition as if they could choose to not be so. To say because we have the option presented does not therefore explore why anyone would deny God. The ability to choose does not factor in therefore since it takes no account of the virtue that must be present so that one not only chooses good but knows Love. For I know something is amiss in man when there exist men like thoes in Sodom, who choose to rape others, and to say it is because they simply can does not cut it as an explanation.

This has nothing to do with choosing life because of eating of the tree of knowlege, or that it would prove God a liar. Because man ate of that tree, he was kicked out of the garden so he would be unable to eat of the tree of life, and thus live forever. This is when physical death came into the world.

It has everything to do with the eating of the fruit that was forbidden. We would not even be here discussing life and death if not for that disobedience that ate of the fruit that was death to us. Regarding God keeping us away from the tree of life, why is that? I say it is because God does not want vanity in heaven.

Of course you're FREE to believe I'm "mistaken" about this verse, but I'm quite comfortable with letting others decide whether it has any merit in our discussion of man's free will. It speaks for itself, and your "explanation" is pretty........odd, for lack of a better word.

I'm not free to believe anything but that which God reveals and shows to be selfevident. All lies end in hypocrisy. For instance I can't choose to believe red is green and dirt is food.

To me, this is what's presented to us today. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved or reject the good news and die. Same story...different day.

I don't disagree with the same story, different day aspect. As far as freewill goes however, I remind you that Satan introduced the option to disobey God, not men's will nor God's will. As such, all disobedience to God is obedience to Satan not a "freewill", but a servant to sin. God also set forth an option to choose life through Christ provided we could see the value of it. But God has sent word to the beggars and the cripples so that His house be full for His son's wedding. That's my view.

The fact that men would reach for the fruit of the tree of life is not indicative of freewill since it is no stretch that they would desire to live forever if one values life. Still, the fact that God kept them from being able to have access to it, is proof that we do not control our destiny as freewill implies.

 

[glorydaz]

The biggest problem is you present Old Testament scripture about choosing life by doing the works of the law as proof we can choose of our freewill, when the Old Testament shows that despite our choice or desire to live, we could not perform the law and so it became death to us regardless of our will for it to not be so.

No, the law was given to show man their sins and to serve as an "example ... a shadow of heavenly things."

We should never dismiss the OT, because all of it applies to us now. The law was nothing more than our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. I could find a corresponding verse in the NT for each verse here, but I wanted to highlight just these so that you can see it's the same Word of God.

Compare these verses from Deut. 30 to the NT verses, and tell me what you see.

6And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Romans 2:29 - But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

14But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Romans 10:8 - But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

1 John 5:12 - He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

 

[Eventide]

I thank God for showing me therefore, and do not lie and claim that I chose to believe but rather that I was convinced by seeing the Truth that God by His grace had revealed. So it is even now, I have not said God does not allow other men to see although we all are born in ignorance, for He is able to convince a man into believing which is what I testify to and I assume He may do so in due time according to His purpose to anyone he wishes.

You had originally claimed that God revealed Himself to YOU and not toTHEM.. now you're backtracking.. which tells me that you don't actually believe what you said..

The Spirit of God convicts the WORLD of sin... that true light lighteth EVERY MAN that comes into the world.. so why would anyone think that God doesn't reveal Himself to all men.. ? The scriptures tell us that men are without excuse because God HAS revealed Himself to them..

That's why I call those who say things like this special... it's like the Calvinists who think they received the 'special' call while all others only get the general call... where's that come from..?

One word... S P E C I A L...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Childeye, has said, he/she (whichever) doesn't know if he/she is of the "chosen elect." And that it doesn't matter, he/she leaves that in God's hands. So childeye isn't "certain" either way, and has said it really doesn't matter to them...

 

[childeye]

=glorydaz;585597]No, the law was given to show man their sins and to serve as an "example ... a shadow of heavenly things."

I agree the Old Testament laws are a shadow of the substantive things which substantive things are those virtues that come by God's grace. Note our different outlooks upon sin. You say, "to show men their sins". Whereas I would say, "to show man he has sin". Your view is that sin is an action of man while my view is the presence of a corruption in man that brings forth sinful actions. Hence you believe in freewill and I don't.

We should never dismiss the OT, because all of it applies to us now. The law was nothing more than our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. I could find a corresponding verse in the NT for each verse here, but I wanted to highlight just these so that you can see it's the same Word of God.

I don't disagree that the Old Testament brings us to Christ. As I have already said, the law proves us all sinners incapable of choosing life without the mercy of God that comes in the Christ.

Compare these verses from Deut. 30 to the NT verses, and tell me what you see.

Originally Posted by Deut. 30
6And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Romans 2:29 - But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

I see the type and that which the type exists to represent. I see Ishmael, the attempt by man to bring forth God's will through the bondswoman, or in other words through his own supposed freewill even as a sinner to bring forth the Spirit that has no sin. And then I see Isaac, God bringing about His promise through the freewoman, the sinless man whose Spirit is attained by grace of God which the sinner could have never brought forth.

I see the circumcision of the heart being done by God to cause one to worship God, not by men's "freewill". I see the Spirit being changed in a man by God's grace as a promise to Abraham and not by men's obedience to the letter.

14But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Romans 10:8 - But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

I see here the letter of the Word in deuteronomy, but I see the actual Spirit of the Word in Roman's. Hence the former is a shadow of the latter which makes the latter the actual thing and the former only a type.

15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

1 John 5:12 - He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

These quotes are not as alike, for in the former a choice is given to man, where two options of life and death, blessing and cursing have been presented. The latter declares the necessity of the Spirit of Christ within a person to have Life. This obviously brings forth the same recurring question of whether man can have the son of God through his supposed free volition as a sinner, or whether it must be given by God to even see the Christ so as to come to Christ. To put it another way, does man own God or God own man?

I like your present simplistic approach as it is bringing forth good opportunity to express the differences in out look. It is simple to me. Either men are moved according to the spirits that reside in them or they have a freewill to determine their own character and direction. I perceive the former to be true. This means to me what we believe to be true is what makes us who we are.

 

[childeye]

Childeye, has said, he/she (whichever) doesn't know if he/she is of the "chosen elect." And that it doesn't matter, he/she leaves that in God's hands. So childeye isn't "certain" either way, and has said it really doesn't matter to them...

Thanks Grubal. You are somewhat correct concerning my view. I don't know if I am chosen but I don't speak for He\She. I do leave that to God as He is the one Who does the collecting of His own. Mine is to keep my eyes on the race before me in great hope that I may be or am a chosen one. To me this is what Paul meant when he said work out your salvation. So it does not mean I don't care about being saved, it means I don't worry about whether God has chosen me. In fact it seems to me God would want me to hope everyone is chosen.

 

[Eventide]

Thanks Grubal. You are somewhat correct concerning my view. I don't know if I am chosen but I don't speak for He\She. I do leave that to God as He is the one Who does the collecting of His own. Mine is to keep my eyes on the race before me in great hope that I may be or am a chosen one. To me this is what Paul meant when he said work out your salvation. So it does not mean I don't care about being saved, it means I don't worry about whether God has chosen me. In fact it seems to me God would want me to hope everyone is chosen.

And the scriptures tell us precisely WHY people are chosen to salvation.. through Sanctification of the Spirit and BELIEVING THE TRUTH.

It's not optional.. God decided this before the foundation of the world.

 

[Eventide]

And once again, we KNOW that the Sprit of God convinces the WORLD of these things.. sin, righteousness, and judgment.. and that He IS that true light which lighteth EVERY MAN that comes into the world. We also KNOW that men are without excuse because God HAS revealed Himself to them..

These are scriptural truths..

 

[childeye]

And once again, we KNOW that the Sprit of God convinces the WORLD of these things.. sin, righteousness, and judgment.. and that He IS that true light which lighteth EVERY MAN that comes into the world. We also KNOW that men are without excuse because God HAS revealed Himself to them..

These are scriptural truths..

The revelation of God you are refering to in Romans one is a mirepresentation of Romans one. Romans one is about the Godhead and Truth emphasizing that there is a Truth and a Godhead that men have imagined falsely. Christ is the revelation of God that changes a man so as to cause man to worship God in Truth.

 

[Eventide]

The revelation of God you are refering to in Romans one is a mirepresentation of Romans one. Romans one is about the Godhead and Truth emphasizing that there is a Truth and a Godhead that men have imagined falsely. Christ is the revelation of God that changes a man so as to cause man to worship God in Truth.

Says you.. but I see it for exactly what it says.. that men are without excuse because God has revealed Himself to them.. not because they had some false image of God as you say.. that's your subtle change to the text.

 

[childeye]

Says you.. but I see it for exactly what it says.. that men are without excuse because God has revealed Himself to them.. not because they had some false image of God as you say.. that's your subtle change to the text.

Romans one says there is a Godhead and men know this:
Romans 1:19

King James Version (KJV)


19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.





Men imagine a false image of God because of vanity:

• =Romans 1:21-23

King James Version (KJV)



21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Thanks Grubal. You are somewhat correct concerning my view. I don't know if I am chosen but I don't speak for He\She. I do leave that to God as He is the one Who does the collecting of His own. Mine is to keep my eyes on the race before me in great hope that I may be or am a chosen one. To me this is what Paul meant when he said work out your salvation. So it does not mean I don't care about being saved, it means I don't worry about whether God has chosen me. In fact it seems to me God would want me to hope everyone is chosen.

Since you believe what you believe, it's the better part of wisdom that, you be more concerned if your among the elect. Because if your not chosen, the other alternative is being cast into the lake of fire...

 

[childeye]

Since you believe what you believe, it's the better part of wisdom that, you be more concerned if your among the elect. Because if your not chosen, the other alternative is being cast into the lake of fire...

I understand your point Grubal, I see semantics in words; so it is that there is not much difference between being concerned I am among the elect and being concerned I am to be cast into the lake of fire. It seems to me it is not surprising that I should be concerned for myself, but Love would have me be concerned for all. The difference to me and so is my concern, is the criteria that God uses to distinguish who goes where. As Jesus said, "Many on that day will say Lord, Lord, didn't we do all these works in your name? And he will answer, I never knew you". I note that these whom he never knew, thought they had Jesus as their Lord. I would not imply that you are one of these.

 

[Eventide]

Romans one says there is a Godhead and men know this:
Romans 1:19

King James Version (KJV)


19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

And that's not all it says.. it says that men hold the truth in unrighteousness..

Men imagine a false image of God because of vanity:

• =Romans 1:21-23

King James Version (KJV)



21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

This is the RESULT of holding the truth in unrighteousness.. God giving them over to the lusts of their own hearts.. not because THEY had a false image of God.. they KNEW as the word plainly states.

 

[childeye]

And that's not all it says.. it says that men hold the truth in unrighteousness..



This is the RESULT of holding the truth in unrighteousness.. God giving them over to the lusts of their own hearts.. not because THEY had a false image of God.. they KNEW as the word plainly states.

Eventide, one cannot hold the Truth in unrighteousness and not hold a false image of god since they are the same thing. Moreover this happened long ago and I get the impression you think you would not have been like those men. So if they were not fools in their vanity as you seem to claim but knew exactly what they were doing in being unthankful to God and imagining God as what He is not, why does Romans two say this?
1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

You seem to want to condemn yourself in hypocrisy as if you would have done better. I admit they were, we are, fools for taking God for granted in vanity, but I will not say I knowingly want to be a fool and remain blind to vanity because that is a lie. I do not want to esteem God falsely. Do you even know what such vanity is?