[_ Old Earth _] Creation

[kevinmaynard]

It does indeed matter. You're rather ambivalent about accepting Jesus used creation aren't you? Same thing with every evolutionist I've conversed with. Staunch evolutionists will not claim to believe creation was used whether it matters or not. They just won't do it.

I see that you are ardent in trying to make some point and taking a very long time to get to it. I see that you need to baby step acceptance of things I don't see as particularly relevant. I see you use terms in the pejorative to further your position. These are tactics not suited for scientific discussion.

 

[Rick W]

If you believe creation occurred after God's creation of the universe then no, you're not exactly a TE. After that absolute creation of everything then God used evolution to bring forth everything else thereafter, including Adam.

 

[Rick W]

I see that you are ardent in trying to make some point and taking a very long time to get to it. I see that you need to baby step acceptance of things I don't see as particularly relevant. I see you use terms in the pejorative to further your position. These are tactics not suited for scientific discussion.

We're talking about belief.
This forum isn't intended to focus solely, totally on science. There is the word "Christianity" included. Therefore discussion of Christian belief is indeed a part of this forum.

 

[kevinmaynard]

If you believe creation occurred after God's creation of the universe then no, you're not exactly a TE. After that absolute creation of everything then God used evolution to bring forth everything else thereafter, including Adam.

Ok I am neither a TE nor not TE. I don't ponder how the miracles happened.

 

[Rick W]

Kevin, do you believe Adam was created?

 

[kevinmaynard]

We're talking about belief.
This forum isn't intended to focus solely, totally on science. There is the word "Christianity" included. Therefore discussion of Christian belief is indeed a part of this forum.

Yes, but there must be a level of intellectual honesty in discussion, lest the term Christianity loses meaning.

 

[kevinmaynard]

Kevin, do you believe Adam was created?

I don't view genesis as literal.

 

[Free]

Let's be clear ok? Christ created the fish from nothing. Where there was no fish, now there was. Creation. He didn't steal the bread, he created it. He didn't transport anything. Fish did not suddenly disappear from fisherman's nets or fly through the air.

Creation. The power of God to create matter where there was none at all. And Christ's power to create bread and fish that did not previously exist.

Can that be accepted for a bit?

Notice that he didn't simply create fish and bread but there was a supply to begin with. He may have just caused the fish tissue and bread to regenerate and multiply as he took pieces from them. A miracle, yes, but a clear act of creation, not necessarily.

 

[Rick W]

Notice that he didn't simply create fish and bread but there was a supply to begin with. He may have just caused the fish tissue and bread to regenerate and multiply as he took pieces from them. A miracle, yes, but a clear act of creation, not necessarily.

That is an interesting view.
Regeneration and multiplication used to feed that many people requires molecular existence that wasn't there in the first place.
If I have 3 apples and I regenerate or multiply those apples to 500 apples then where did the molecules to form the other 497 apples come from?

 

[kevinmaynard]

That is an interesting view.
Regeneration and multiplication used to feed that many people requires molecular existence that wasn't there in the first place.
If I have 3 apples and I regenerate or multiply those apples to 500 apples then where did the molecules to form the other 497 apples come from?

The air is made of atoms and molecules, he could have used those.

 

[Rick W]

The air is made of atoms and molecules, he could have used those.

Then we're talking about bulk nuclear transmutation processes. An Alchemist's dream come true.

He created the fish and bread from air molecules.
Well, I suppose that's yet another way to dodge creation since that's not creation but rather nuclear reassembly.

 

[kevinmaynard]

Then we're talking about bulk nuclear transmutation processes. An Alchemist's dream come true.

He created the fish and bread from air molecules.
Well, I suppose that's yet another way to dodge creation since that's not creation but rather nuclear reassembly.

I merely challenge your assertion that your view is the only possible way. I don't really see creation as a problem for evolution. Evolution is just a process.

 

[Rick W]

I merely challenge your assertion that your view is the only possible way. I don't really see creation as a problem for evolution. Evolution is just a process.

I believe God created from nothing the universe and everything in it.
I believe Adam was created fully matured and not through evolution.
I believe the jar of oil was filled by creation.
I believe Jesus fed the multitudes through creation, not by transmutation of the air.

I know exactly what I believe.
You challenge my assertion of views. I have no problem with that at all. I can accept challenge/criticism without offense. I cannot expect all to believe as I do and by the looks of things I shouldn't expect others to be as solid in their beliefs as I am concerning this.

For some odd reason an evolutionist will not believe Jesus created the food necessary to feed the masses. It's one of the absolute attributes of the evolutionist. I've been on this board for nine tears and never have I seen an evolutionist claim belief in any creation other than beyond the time they themselves cannot explain. Once an explanation can't be provided then and only then will the TE claim God's creation.

 

[kevinmaynard]

I believe God created from nothing the universe and everything in it.
I believe Adam was created fully matured and not through evolution.
I believe the jar of oil was filled by creation.
I believe Jesus fed the multitudes through creation, not by transmutation of the air.

I know exactly what I believe.
You challenge my assertion of views. I have no problem with that at all. I can accept challenge/criticism without offense. I cannot expect all to believe as I do and by the looks of things I shouldn't expect others to be as solid in their beliefs as I am concerning this.

For some odd reason an evolutionist will not believe Jesus created the food necessary to feed the masses. It's one of the absolute attributes of the evolutionist. I've been on this board for nine tears and never have I seen an evolutionist claim belief in any creation other than beyond the time they themselves cannot explain. Once an explanation can't be provided then and only then will the TE claim God's creation.

I find the use of a made up pejorative "evolutionist" to be distracting and misdirecting from actual conversation. Whether the fish and bread were created is of no trouble to the process of evolution.

 

[Rick W]

Was Adam created mature or did he evolve having age?

 

[Free]

That is an interesting view.
Regeneration and multiplication used to feed that many people requires molecular existence that wasn't there in the first place.
If I have 3 apples and I regenerate or multiply those apples to 500 apples then where did the molecules to form the other 497 apples come from?

Notice that the texts say that Jesus "broke" the fish and loaves. How does your body heal itself from a cut? How is medicine currently growing body parts, either on a mouse or on another place on the person's body? How does a baby form from conception?

 

[Rick W]

Notice that the texts say that Jesus "broke" the fish and loaves. How does your body heal itself from a cut? How is medicine currently growing body parts, either on a mouse or on another place on the person's body?

Yes free, I understand what you're saying. Growing body parts requires nutrients, something transported to the site of growth by the blood. Medicine is not growing body parts without something to build with. Nutrients. Medicine is not creation. For growth in healing the necessary building blocks have to be there for it to occur.
Regeneration needs things from which to regenerate.

Kevin suggested air. Notice he didn't say dust or ground because that would have left Jesus in a hole in the ground.

 

[kevinmaynard]

Was Adam created mature or did he evolve having age?

Individuals don't evolve. If Adam was born and aged it would be in the same way as everyone else.

Seeing as how you misapplied the term how can can you discuss a topic you fundamentally don't have knowledge of?

 

[Rick W]

And again the denial of creation apart from the universe.
Evolution cannot allow creation anywhere else. Can't happen and must be debunked.

 

[kevinmaynard]

And again the denial of creation apart from the universe.
Evolution cannot allow creation anywhere else. Can't happen and must be debunked.

You simply fundamentally have a miss understanding of the topic as evolution can certainly allow creation anywhere it exists.