[_ Old Earth _] Creation

[Free]

Notice that the texts say that Jesus "broke" the fish and loaves. How does your body heal itself from a cut? How is medicine currently growing body parts, either on a mouse or on another place on the person's body?

Yes free, I understand what you're saying. Growing body parts requires nutrients, something transported to the site of growth by the blood. Medicine is not growing body parts without something to build with. Nutrients. Medicine is not creation. For growth in healing the necessary building blocks have to be there for it to occur.

"Medicine is not creation." Precisely. And because Jesus had material to work with, how is that any different? If the body can heal itself, medicine can grow body parts, and a baby forms from cells dividing, how is it then that Jesus must be creating "from nothing," as you stated? Could he not just be causing cells to regenerate and multiply?

As I said, a miracle, yes, but a clear act of creation, not necessarily.

 

[Rick W]

"Medicine is not creation." Precisely. And because Jesus had material to work with

Then Jesus used transmutation of surrounding material to make fish?

 

[kevinmaynard]

Then Jesus used transmutation of surrounding material to make fish?

Are you suggesting it would be impossible for him to multiply the cells? When I heard the story in church that is exactly how it was put. He multiplied the fish and bread. Not created fish and bread.

 

[Free]

Then Jesus used transmutation of surrounding material to make fish?

You'll have to be more clear as to which type of transmutation you are referring to.

 

[Rick W]

Free,
Where did the molecules come from that formed the fish and bread 5,000 people were fed?

 

[Free]

Free,
Where did the molecules come from that formed the fish and bread 5,000 people were fed?

As I have stated, from that which existed already:

Mark 6:38 And he said to them, "How many loaves do you have? Go and see." And when they had found out, they said, "Five, and two fish." (ESV)

 

[Rick W]

Again

There are so many molecules in 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish. To feed 5,000 people you need more molecules. If you stretch out the molecules from the original 5 loaves and 2 fish to give to the many those fish and that bread would most likely be translucent or bordering on transparency.

Where did the extra molecules come from?

If from the originals as you say then the regeneration you speak of is indeed creation of something from nothing. One could say then that the original was the pattern by which the other molecules were created.

Something somewhere had to be created. Where there was probably just a few pounds of fish if that now there is a ton. That's less than 1/2 pound of fish for everyone. To add weight you have to add mass.

Where did the extra mass come from?

 

[Free]

Again

There are so many molecules in 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish. To feed 5,000 people you need more molecules. If you stretch out the molecules from the original 5 loaves and 2 fish to give to the many those fish and that bread would most likely be translucent or bordering on transparency.

Where did the extra molecules come from?

If from the originals as you say then the regeneration you speak of is indeed creation of something from nothing. One could say then that the original was the pattern by which the other molecules were created.

Something somewhere had to be created. Where there was probably just a few pounds of fish if that now there is a ton. That's less than 1/2 pound of fish for everyone. To add weight you have to add mass.

Where did the extra mass come from?

From that you have to look at my posts #76 and #81. It seems that my points have not been at all understood.

 

[kevinmaynard]

Again

There are so many molecules in 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish. To feed 5,000 people you need more molecules. If you stretch out the molecules from the original 5 loaves and 2 fish to give to the many those fish and that bread would most likely be translucent or bordering on transparency.

Where did the extra molecules come from?

If from the originals as you say then the regeneration you speak of is indeed creation of something from nothing. One could say then that the original was the pattern by which the other molecules were created.

Something somewhere had to be created. Where there was probably just a few pounds of fish if that now there is a ton. That's less than 1/2 pound of fish for everyone. To add weight you have to add mass.

Actually even if stretched the molecules would not be translucent. Atoms are already mostly empty space. an egg is already just one single cell. Also, your assertion that something had to come from nothing is your putting your opinion on what happened. Might have been any number of different occurrences. Most importantly what difference does it make?

 

[Rick W]

OK free. If I have say 3 pounds of mass and I need 2500 pounds of mass then where do I get the extra mass from?

Jesus had but a certain mass of fish and bread. He had to feed the multitudes with enough mass to appease their appetites.

Creation had to occur. Something from nothing to get more mass. I can't take 3 pounds of mass and expand it to 2,500 pounds of mass without adding more mass than the original 3 pounds of mass already has.

 

[Free]

OK free. If I have say 3 pounds of mass and I need 2500 pounds of mass then where do I get the extra mass from?

Jesus had but a certain mass of fish and bread. He had to feed the multitudes with enough mass to appease their appetites.

Creation had to occur. Something from nothing to get more mass. I can't take 3 pounds of mass and expand it to 2,500 pounds of mass without adding more mass than the original 3 pounds of mass already has.

Really? You've still missed the argument. How big is a "baby," how much mass does it have, when it is first conceived and how large does it grow? Pick a species.

Not to mention that you have to explain: 1) why Jesus asked what food they had in the first place, and 2) why the food they ate was the same as the food they began with. if he was creating out of nothing, he wouldn't have needed anything to begin with and he could have created whatever he wanted or whatever the people wanted.

You want to use this situation as an example of creation of out nothing but it really does not seem to be the case.

 

[Rick W]

Free,
We feed babies. Animals feed their young. They grow because they get nourishment, they get food to grow. Without food they don't grow.
From that food comes the required nutrients to build flesh. Food (mass) = Flesh (mass)

Jesus wasn't feeding the original fish, make them grow then breaking off pieces. If so then where did the food come from to make the original fish grow?

 

[Free]

Free,
We feed babies. Animals feed their young. They grow because they get nourishment, they get food to grow. Without food they don't grow.
From that food comes the required nutrients to build flesh. Food (mass) = Flesh (mass)

Jesus wasn't feeding the original fish, make them grow then breaking off pieces. If so then where did the food come from to make the original fish grow?

You don't believe in miracles, only in creating out of nothing? Come now. Could not the power of God caused growth just like he can bring the dead to life, which is not an act of creation?

My whole point really is that we must be careful in making the Bible say things it isn't necessarily saying. It doesn't say how Jesus did it, just as Genesis doesn't give the how of how all living things came to be. In both cases the process has been left out, it is only the result that we see. With the fish and loaves it could have been an act of creating from nothing but it also could have been a miracle.

 

[jasoncran]

creation from nothing is a miracle. does that happen daily why do the jews use the word barah in there sentence which means something came from nothing?

 

[Free]

creation from nothing is a miracle. does that happen daily why do the jews use the word barah in there sentence which means something came from nothing?

What's an example?

 

[jasoncran]

the universe! did that just always exist.? where was the flesh from man's ear come from? did jesus make malchus a new ear or did he reattach his old ear. the bible says what happened.

 

[Free]

the universe! did that just always exist.? where was the flesh from man's ear come from? did jesus make malchus a new ear or did he reattach his old ear. the bible says what happened.

Never mind. I misread your post. I thought you said it happens daily. But I will maintain that a miracle and creating out of nothing are categorically different.

 

[jasoncran]

ok. I disagree, the fact that a coin got into a fish's mouth to be caught by peter and given as a tax unto ceaser is such an example. did jesus just steal that coing and what of the birth of jesus? is that not an act of creation. he wasn't biologically(nor could he be ever) from joseph as that would be well bad for him, he would be cursed by god and that cant happen.so where did his other half of his dna come from?

 

[Rick W]

My whole point free is that to accept Christ created the fish has adverse implications for evolution.
We see Adam being created first then Eve. To circumvent this the evolutionist must come up with other beings from which Adam was born.
A fully matured and created Adam simply does not fit the model of evolution. He could not have been created. He had to have age. And evolution is totally based on age and time. There is no room what-so-ever for creation unless, (and this is the condition placed on God's power), there is no other way to explain what man wants to believe.

 

[kevinmaynard]

My whole point free is that to accept Christ created the fish has adverse implications for evolution.
We see Adam being created first then Eve. To circumvent this the evolutionist must come up with other beings from which Adam was born.
A fully matured and created Adam simply does not fit the model of evolution. He could not have been created. He had to have age. And evolution is totally based on age and time. There is no room what-so-ever for creation unless, (and this is the condition placed on God's power), there is no other way to explain what man wants to believe.

You assert creation and evolution are opposed but have yet to demonstrate it. Also evolutionist is a made up word.