[_ Old Earth _] creationism essential to christianity?

[felix]

I don't think you understand what is typically meant by creationism. It is usually meant as the belief that God created everything mature in 6 literal days, 6 24-hour periods of time, about 6,000 years ago. Denying creationism as a Christian is in no way whatsoever denying that God created, so it clearly is not denying the Creator.

(Exod 20:11) For [in] six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that [is] in them, and rested the seventh day...

Do you deny this above Scripture verse?

Do you deny Genesis 5?

 

[Free]

(Exod 20:11) For [in] six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that [is] in them, and rested the seventh day...

Do you deny this above Scripture verse?

Do you deny Genesis 5?

I don't deny them but we need to know what they are saying, what the author intended to communicate.

But we really should have the OP define precisely what they meant by "creationism."

 

[Stan53]

It's all there in my post.

Hardly.

 

[Grazer]

Just on the last part, neither does Scripture say the earth was created 6000 years old. God created the heavens and the earth "in the beginning" - This was even before light was created to define what a Biblical day is.

But you in an earlier post said:

"Young Earth Creationism is as important and essential as receiving Salvation itself"

 

[felix]

But you in an earlier post said:

"Young Earth Creationism is as important and essential as receiving Salvation itself"

Young Earth Creationism is the literal interpretation of the exact timeline given in the Bible that God created everything on 6 days and rested on the 7th day and the world is 6000 years. However, the literal interpretation differs with the general view of it because the "heaven and earth" are created in the "beginning" not on the first day. Hence, I generally say I believe that I am a young earth creationism - because, it is enough to convey my believes although not to the very details. Except "heaven and earth" which scripture says were created in the "beginning", everything is same as Young Earth Creationism. Hope I clarified my position.

 

[Asyncritus]

Thanks for the clarification Free.

You had me worried there for a bit.

 

[Free]

Hardly.

Sure it is. The sentence before the one you quoted explains it: "It is usually meant as the belief that God created everything mature in 6 literal days, 6 24-hour periods of time, about 6,000 years ago." If that specific view is what hadron means by "creationism," then, yes, one can reject that and still accept and believe that God is the Creator.

I suspect hadron will rejoin us shortly and we'll get clarification.

 

[hadron]

What I mean by creationism here is the denial of common ancestry. Since I posted this thread I have been doing some looking around at different positions that Christians take on this issue and was happy to find Biologos (re the Wright link), which seems to argue something like God using evolution to create the variety of species we find. I'm happy about it, because there are already so many other things to wade through and figure out concerning Christianity without worrying about getting through it only to face having to give up evolution, which I think is extremely well supported, or go home.

Sorry I didn't reply earlier. There were issues with the forums the admins fixed for me.

 

[Stan53]

Young Earth Creationism is the literal interpretation of the exact timeline given in the Bible that God created everything on 6 days and rested on the 7th day and the world is 6000 years. However, the literal interpretation differs with the general view of it because the "heaven and earth" are created in the "beginning" not on the first day. Hence, I generally say I believe that I am a young earth creationism - because, it is enough to convey my believes although not to the very details. Except "heaven and earth" which scripture says were created in the "beginning", everything is same as Young Earth Creationism. Hope I clarified my position.

In other words, you believe in the GAP theory.

 

[Barbarian]

You're typical of a lot of people who are searching. There are enough obstacles coming to God without people adding new ones.

Creationism, in the sense of denial of common descent, has never been a requirement for Christians.

 

[Stan53]

What I mean by creationism here is the denial of common ancestry. Since I posted this thread I have been doing some looking around at different positions that Christians take on this issue and was happy to find Biologos (re the Wright link), which seems to argue something like God using evolution to create the variety of species we find. I'm happy about it, because there are already so many other things to wade through and figure out concerning Christianity without worrying about getting through it only to face having to give up evolution, which I think is extremely well supported, or go home.

Sorry I didn't reply earlier. There were issues with the forums the admins fixed for me.

Sorry but that's about as clear as mud. So you are saying you believe in evolution and don't want to give that belief up to follow God? You feel if following God means you have to believe in the Genesis recount of creation as literal, then you won't follow Christianity?
So if, as I suspect, you DON'T want creationism to be essential to Christianity in order for you to become a Christian, I'm afraid you are going to be dissapointed.
God dealt with this thought, a long time ago in His word.

Hebrews 11:3

By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not brought into being from anything observable.

 

[Stan53]

Sure it is. The sentence before the one you quoted explains it: "It is usually meant as the belief that God created everything mature in 6 literal days, 6 24-hour periods of time, about 6,000 years ago." If that specific view is what hadron means by "creationism," then, yes, one can reject that and still accept and believe that God is the Creator.

I suspect hadron will rejoin us shortly and we'll get clarification.

I was asking YOU what YOU meant, not what the OP meant, or what is USUALLY meant.
Are you saying that believing that creationism is wrong, is NOT essential to being a Christian?

 

[hadron]

You're typical of a lot of people who are searching. There are enough obstacles coming to God without people adding new ones.

Creationism, in the sense of denial of common descent, has never been a requirement for Christians.

Barbarian,

Exactly. I wasn't sure at the outset if this was something I needed to add to my immediate investigation list or not. I've been taken aback by the quality of the arguments for God's existence, and even a couple specific ones for the truth of Christianity. I really had no idea, which just shows the depths of my ignorance about the topic. I have more things I'd like to say about this but that'd probably be getting far off the science topic.

thanks for the clarification everyone. It's been very educational. Depending on how the rest of my investigation goes I may revisit this topic at a later stage.

Stan, your dissent is noted. I am interested in knowing what is true about the world, simple as that. Evolution, here, common descent from a common ancestor, seems to be a true fact about the world. It's not about what I 'want', it's about discovering truth.

 

[Free]

I was asking YOU what YOU meant, not what the OP meant, or what is USUALLY meant.
Are you saying that believing that creationism is wrong, is NOT essential to being a Christian?

I'm not sure why you're not understanding my posts. We first have to define what is meant by creationism and I was clear that if we define it as it usually is defined, then one can not believe it and remain a Christian as it is not a denial that there is a God who created.

 

[felix]

In other words, you believe in the GAP theory.

No, I don't. While GAP theory introduces a whole heap of assumptions between the "beginning" and the "first day" based on a few verses which I do carefully consider, but I don't fully believe it because there is no clear scripture reference for when angels were created (although everything was created before the 7th day). While there are possibilities for it, I still consider as a "theory" not as a fact. This is why I want to stop where Scripture stops by saying, except the 'heaven and the earth", the rest of all creations were just 6000 years old created in a literal 6 days. While I want to say "6 literal days", the length of each day may be different and not 24 hrs because, God gave the sun to rule only on the 4th day (the first 3 days were without sun).

 

[cupid dave]

Hebrews 11:3

By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not brought into being from anything observable.

LOL

Your understanding of that verse is wrong.
And, the way you would understand it makes it irrational and actually fantastic.

The ONLY way that verse can be understood rationally is to understand that Jesus was symbolizing himself as Truth, the concept of Truth as an ideal.

Truth does create everything in our mind as it actually is.
Immanuel Kant explained this same thing for you, but outsid of any religious construct that tends to make these ideas metaphysical and surrealistic.


I do not believe this will change your convictions on the issue, but other readers may see my point:



noumenon

noun ( pl.)

(in Kantian philosophy) a thing as it is in itself (external to our mind), as distinct from a thing as it is knowable (to our mind) by (using) the senses through phenomenal attributes (meaning we figure out what the senses are saying is "out there."




Immanuel Kant (1724 1804), in the Critique of Pure Reason, distinguished between objects as phenomena, which are objects as shaped and grasped by human sensibility and understanding, and objects as a thing as it is in itself, or noumena, (distinct from a thing conceived, imaged, as it is in itself, as distinct from the thing), which do not appear to us in space and time, but only as mental constructs, and about which we can make no legitimate judgments.

Truth creates everything in our mind as it really is.

 

[cupid dave]

No, I don't. While GAP theory introduces a whole heap of assumptions between the "beginning" and the "first day" based on a few verses which I do carefully consider, but I don't fully believe it because there is no clear scripture reference for when angels were created (although everything was created before the 7th day). While there are possibilities for it, I still consider as a "theory" not as a fact. This is why I want to stop where Scripture stops by saying, except the 'heaven and the earth", the rest of all creations were just 6000 years old created in a literal 6 days. While I want to say "6 literal days", the length of each day may be different and not 24 hrs because, God gave the sun to rule only on the 4th day (the first 3 days were without sun).

Right...

The six days of God were not the 24 hour days god assigned for man living on earth.

In fact, the seventh day is still going on, as we understand god is resting until the end of times, which comes soon.


The time that God kept was marked in the rocks or us:

1.Formative/Cosmologic Era-Hadean Era/ = First Day



2. HadeanEra-Archaean Era/ = Second Day



3. ArchaeanEra-Proterozoic Era/ = Third Day



4.Proterozoic Era-Paleozoic Era/ = Fourth Day



5. PaleozoicEra-Mesozoic Era/ = Fifth Day



6. MesozoicEra-Cenozoic Era/ = Six Day



7. CenozoicEra-Common Era/ = Seventh Day

 

[Stan53]

I'm not sure why you're not understanding my posts. We first have to define what is meant by creationism and I was clear that if we define it as it usually is defined, then one can not believe it and remain a Christian as it is not a denial that there is a God who created.

Because you are NOT being clear Free and I wonder why you can't answer a very simply constructed question?

 

[Stan53]

No, I don't. While GAP theory introduces a whole heap of assumptions between the "beginning" and the "first day" based on a few verses which I do carefully consider, but I don't fully believe it because there is no clear scripture reference for when angels were created (although everything was created before the 7th day). While there are possibilities for it, I still consider as a "theory" not as a fact. This is why I want to stop where Scripture stops by saying, except the 'heaven and the earth", the rest of all creations were just 6000 years old created in a literal 6 days. While I want to say "6 literal days", the length of each day may be different and not 24 hrs because, God gave the sun to rule only on the 4th day (the first 3 days were without sun).

Yes I understand that and although it sounds reasonable, the fact that Genesis call them all days without distinction, makes me have to accept them as literal 24 hour days.

The angels issue is kinda off topic so I won't address it more.

What do you feel the time lengths were befroe God actually created day and night?

 

[Stan53]

LOL

Your understanding of that verse is wrong.
And, the way you would understand it makes it irrational and actually fantastic.

The ONLY way that verse can be understood rationally is to understand that Jesus was symbolizing himself as Truth, the concept of Truth as an ideal.

Truth does create everything in our mind as it actually is.
Immanuel Kant explained this same thing for you, but outsid of any religious construct that tends to make these ideas metaphysical and surrealistic.


I do not believe this will change your convictions on the issue, but other readers may see my point:

noumenon

noun ( pl.)

(in Kantian philosophy) a thing as it is in itself (external to our mind), as distinct from a thing as it is knowable (to our mind) by (using) the senses through phenomenal attributes (meaning we figure out what the senses are saying is "out there."

Immanuel Kant (1724 1804), in the Critique of Pure Reason, distinguished between objects as phenomena, which are objects as shaped and grasped by human sensibility and understanding, and objects as a thing as it is in itself, or noumena, (distinct from a thing conceived, imaged, as it is in itself, as distinct from the thing), which do not appear to us in space and time, but only as mental constructs, and about which we can make no legitimate judgments.

Truth creates everything in our mind as it really is.

:biglol

OK well you may be a physicist, but you lack a tad on proper hermenuetical exegesis. Hebrews is written by Luke and not Jesus. As an inspired writer, this verse is very clear as to His inspired understanding of how God created the universe and world.

I have only ONE philosophy, which is that of Paul when he writes, For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 1 Cor 2:2