Cremation or Burial

[handy]

False choice. We are not forced to choose between "explicit Biblical commands" on the one hand and "traditions of men" on the other.

We had this same issue in the smoking thread where people arguing that since there is no "thou shalt not smoke" command, this means that damaging your body through smoking is not sin.

But it clearly is sin - the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and is God's creation. So damaging it needlessly must be sin, even if there is no "comnmand".

Do you see my point?

I had the smoking thread in mind when I responded...as well as all the other "Can Christians...(fill in the blank: dance, eat meat, drink caffeine, wear make-up, yada, yada) threads that constantly come up in talk forums.

Yes, I see your point....and I disagree with it, strongly disagree with it. To you, smoking is needlessly damaging the temple of the Holy Spirit. Others, obviously since the "smoking" thread reached 23 pages, don't agree with you. So, who is right? Drew? Just 'cause Drew shares his interpretation of Scripture? And the others who don't see the scriptures as stating the same thing must be wrong?

This is the problem with deciding that one's interpretation of Scripture has to be embraced by the entire church. Who in the church gets to be the final authority? The answer is, of course, that Christ is the final authority. He is the Head of the Church and He is more than capable of telling His servants what He desires for them. If He tells you not to smoke...then don't do it. If He tells you to be buried, then be so. But, He hasn't given you the authority to tell me that I must not smoke or that I cannot be cremated. Again, "Who are you to judge the servant of another Master?"

Drew, I promise you that there are things the Holy Spirit has convicted me about that you would probably think, "Why there is nothing wrong with that!" And, for you, since you have no conviction and since the Scriptures give no command, are free to do so...but not me! Not me, because this is something that the Spirit has convicted me about. It would not be right of me to press my convictions upon you or upon anyone else.

I feel strongly about this because I believe that this propensity of us Christians to be arbitrators of everyone else's morality is very harmful to our bringing the gospel to the world.

 

[Drew]

I had the smoking thread in mind when I responded...as well as all the other "Can Christians...(fill in the blank: dance, eat meat, drink caffeine, wear make-up, yada, yada) threads that constantly come up in talk forums.

Yes, I see your point....and I disagree with it, strongly disagree with it. To you, smoking is needlessly damaging the temple of the Holy Spirit. Others, obviously since the "smoking" thread reached 23 pages, don't agree with you.

Well, I am convinced these others are mistaken.

Please answer these questions, handy:

1. Is the body the temple of the Holy Spirit? Yes or no.
2. Does smoking damage the body? Yes or no.

If you answer yes to both questions, how can smoking not then be sin? It would involve needless damage of the residence of the Holy Spirit.

I look forward to your answers.

 

[Bonairos]

This is another false choice. Clearly both how we live and the decisions we make about our "dead" bodies can indeed send a message.

The issued was what message would be "remembered".

But that's okay. This is where I bow out.

Funny how past experiences can influence today's choices.


Be blessed, Stay blessed!

 

[Lewis]

Hey as I think about it, Jesus was not buried he was laid in a tomb. He was not six feet down with a ton of dirt on top of Him.

 

[handy]

Well, I am convinced these others are mistaken.

Please answer these questions, handy:

1. Is the body the temple of the Holy Spirit? Yes or no.
2. Does smoking damage the body? Yes or no.

If you answer yes to both questions, how can smoking not then be sin? It would involve needless damage of the residence of the Holy Spirit.

I look forward to your answers.

Not the thread for the smoking debate...just want to discuss the principle of not burdening others with our own convictions. Clearly you are convicted that smoking is sin...just as clearly as you are convicted that burial is the only way a Christian should handle the dead body. Others do believe differently though, Drew...others who believe in the Scriptures, believe in Christ and have the Spirit within them. To tell anyone else that something is sin because you, in your own heart, have make a logical progression between point 1 and point 2 is to set yourself up as an arbiter of what is sin, in an area that the Scriptures do not give us authority to do so.

Let's extrapolate the principle out a bit...

1. Was it a sin to carry a burden on the Sabbath?

Yes, Jeremiah 17:21, Thus says the LORD, "Take heed for yourselves, and do not carry any load on the sabbath day or bring anything in through the gates of Jerusalem."

2. Is a pallet a load?
Yes, the above prohibition doesn't specify what kind of load is OK to carry, rather it specifically states, "do not carry any load on the sabbath day."

So, if we logically progress from 1 to 2, we can conclude that it is sinful to carry a pallet on the sabbath day. The Lord says, "do not carry any load" and a pallet is a load.

Then along comes Jesus and tells the paralytic that He just healed to "Get up, pick up your pallet, and walk." All on the sabbath day.

This is why I say we can't make laws by extrapolating point 1 to point 2. Jesus would not have told the man to sin...but He did tell the make to take up his pallet. To the Jews, this was not permissible, just as to you, smoking cigarettes or being cremated is not permissible. Jesus made it clear He wasn't giving the man license to sin, for He told the man not to sin. It's just that carrying a pallet wasn't as sinful as the Jews thought. (John 5)

Lewis, you're absolutely correct...Jesus' body was never "6 feet under".

 

[Hitch]

Did it again Handy

 

[Free]

Hey as I think about it, Jesus was not buried he was laid in a tomb. He was not six feet down with a ton of dirt on top of Him.

No real difference. It is essentially a burial. The body is kept as it was and placed in a tomb.

 

[jasoncran]

cremation for me as i dont want my wife having to travel for miles to talk to me. besides spread my ashes on the mma gym mat.

 

[Nick]

Cremation absolutely. It's cheaper, takes up less space and then my body doesn't rot. I wouldn't mind having my ashes scattered in the ocean either.

I like the quote from the Prayerbook, Dora.

Whether there is a physical or spiritual resurrection, I do not think matters in regards to cremation vs burial. If God wants to resurrect our physical bodies, He can do it no matter what we do to destroy them. Keep in mind that any bodies older than 100 years would have decomposed anyway. Ashes and dust = same thing really.

The arguement that cremation sends a message to the world that is negative I think is an incorrect assumption. To me, it sends a message that our God is Powerful and Amighty, regardless of anything we can do. If God did not want us cremated, even for the reason of sending the world a wrong message, then He would have said so. I am also much more concerned with the messages I send to the world while I am living.

 

[Drew]

Drew, Free, I respect you guys, I really do...but at the same time, just because you feel strongly that the tradition of burial is the only way a Christian should handle their remains doesn't mean that I have to...

Who said you "have to" share my view (or that of Free). But you are not really being fair here. I have not merely expressed how I feel", I have given an explanation of how cremation arguably sends a less than desirable message to the rest of the world about the way we Christians think about our "physicality". The argument is what it is, please feel to engage it.

We can and should hold each other accountable to the precepts in the Scriptures. But to take an issue in which there is neither command nor condemnation and try to make it a "law"...is sinning the sin of the Pharisees.

Untrue. Do you not understand that many things that are not explicitly prohibited in the scriptures are nevertheless clearly unethical for the Christian.

There is no "thou shalt not use insider knowledge to make money in the stock market" command in the Bible.

But even non-Christians agree - this is "sin".

 

[Drew]

If God did not want us cremated, even for the reason of sending the world a wrong message, then He would have said so.

Et tu, Nick?

Surely you must agree that there are many things we can reasonably conclude are unethical for the Christian even if there is no explicit "thou shalt not.....". command against it.

Is there a Biblical prohibition against speeding? No. Is it wrong? Clearly it is.

So why did God "forget" to tell us this?

 

[Drew]

Not the thread for the smoking debate...just want to discuss the principle of not burdening others with our own convictions.

You are, I suggest, implying that my position is merely "my personal conviction". Well, I have a "personal conviction" that Jesus is the second person of the Trinithy. Does this mean that its "ok" for others to not share "my personal conviction?

The point is that you cannot simply assume that the "sin status" of smoking is something we can arrive at equally legitimate, yet conflicting conclusions about.

Clearly you are convicted that smoking is sin...just as clearly as you are convicted that burial is the only way a Christian should handle the dead body.

Please read my posts more carefully. I have clearly acknowledged that there are other considerations that might lead a Christian to legitimately opt for cremation. All I have argued is that cremation sends a less than desirable message to the world about the value we ascribe to our embodied physicality.

Others do believe differently though, Drew...others who believe in the Scriptures, believe in Christ and have the Spirit within them. To tell anyone else that something is sin because you, in your own heart, have make a logical progression between point 1 and point 2 is to set yourself up as an arbiter of what is sin, in an area that the Scriptures do not give us authority to do so.

No. Using this kind of argument, one can say that determinations of what "sin" is are always matters of "personal conviction" or belief.

Why did you not answer my clear questions about smoking, handy?

 

[Drew]

Let's extrapolate the principle out a bit...

1. Was it a sin to carry a burden on the Sabbath?

Yes, Jeremiah 17:21, Thus says the LORD, "Take heed for yourselves, and do not carry any load on the sabbath day or bring anything in through the gates of Jerusalem."

2. Is a pallet a load?
Yes, the above prohibition doesn't specify what kind of load is OK to carry, rather it specifically states, "do not carry any load on the sabbath day."

So, if we logically progress from 1 to 2, we can conclude that it is sinful to carry a pallet on the sabbath day. The Lord says, "do not carry any load" and a pallet is a load.

Then along comes Jesus and tells the paralytic that He just healed to "Get up, pick up your pallet, and walk." All on the sabbath day.

I think you misunderstand what Jesus was doing. He was intentionally breaking the Law to symbollically enact that the Law of Moses was coming to an end.

People get tied up in knots when I and others say that Jesus broke the Law of Moses. Well, I am sorry but the Scriptures are quite clear that He did this very thing at several points.

In at least 2 of the 3 synoptics, Jesus clearly states that "what goes into a person does not make that person unclean".

Well, that clearly contradicts the Law of Moses which clearly asserts that some foods indeed make the Jew unclean.

People then engage in all manner of histrionics to deny what the text says - that Jesus contradicts the Law of Moses. But there is no need to do this. The broader picture is clarified to us by Paul in places like Romans 10, where Paul states that with Jesus, the Law of Moses comes to an end.

 

[Lewis]

Jesus further illustrated a perspective towards the disposal of the body when he spoke to one who would follow Him: Luke 9:59-60 says, “He said to another man, ‘Follow me.’ But the man replied, ‘Lord, first let me go and bury my father.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.’†At first, this appears to be a harsh and unfeeling response, but Jesus was determined that those who followed Him would give Him their full attention; disposing of the body of the dead was obviously of very low priority. If the Bible renders a low priority to this issue then it would seem that the method of disposal may be left to individual taste and, perhaps, other societal and environmental dictates.
Christian Views on Cremation

 

[Nick]

Surely you must agree that there are many things we can reasonably conclude are unethical for the Christian even if there is no explicit "thou shalt not.....". command against it.

Is there a Biblical prohibition against speeding? No. Is it wrong? Clearly it is.

So why did God "forget" to tell us this?

I agree that there are some things that Christians consider unethical even though the Bible may not speak directly on it. In these cases from what we know the Bible says on other issues, we can infer what may be a good position to take on ones where the Bible is more unclear. In this case, I have not seen that we are to either bury or cremate. I think it is one's personal choice. If you decide to be buried, that's your choice and I have nothing against it.

In regards to your speeding analogy, that is a different situation. Driving at fast speeds I do not think is a sin. Consider the autobahns in Germany. There is often no speed limit, and cars can be seen driving at over 200km/h. If a driver can safely drive at that speed, then what's the problem?
So then we can come to the conclusion that speeding is a sin becasue it is against the law (government law), and God told us to obey the government.

And btw, since I don't think the Bible speaks in any particular way on burial or cremation, if my state government outlawed cremation, I would go for burial. If however the Bible said we have to be cremated but the government made it illegal, I would still opt for cremation.

 

[handy]

Lot's to cover here, Drew...I'm wide awake, so I'll answer your points.

Who said you "have to" share my view (or that of Free). But you are not really being fair here. I have not merely expressed how I feel", I have given an explanation of how cremation arguably sends a less than desirable message to the rest of the world about the way we Christians think about our "physicality". The argument is what it is, please feel to engage it.

As to the argument that cremation sends a "less than desirable message to the world"...frankly I doubt that many in the world care all that much about what we Christians do with our dead. The more environmentally conscience ones probably wish we would cremate, since burial is hard on the environment.

Untrue. Do you not understand that many things that are not explicitly prohibited in the scriptures are nevertheless clearly unethical for the Christian.

There is no "thou shalt not use insider knowledge to make money in the stock market" command in the Bible.

But even non-Christians agree - this is "sin".

Since insider knowledge is used to defraud others out of money, I think the bible covers this: “You shall not steal; you shall not deal falsely; you shall not lie to one another." Lev 19:11

You are, I suggest, implying that my position is merely "my personal conviction". Well, I have a "personal conviction" that Jesus is the second person of the Trinithy. Does this mean that its "ok" for others to not share "my personal conviction?

I'm not really "implying" that your position is personal conviction...I think I flat out stated it was, because there is no biblical command nor condemnation regarding it. Jesus being the second person of the Trinity is not a "personal conviction" it is a Biblical precept that has been embraced by most in the Church for two millennia.

The point is that you cannot simply assume that the "sin status" of smoking is something we can arrive at equally legitimate, yet conflicting conclusions about.

I'm basing my reasoning here on Romans 14, in which Paul addresses matters of conscience. One can make a very good case that it is sinful to eat meat sacrificed to idols, yet Paul makes it clear that if we have the faith to do it, then we are free to do so, but if we don't then, "whatever is not from faith is sin." Like it or not, there are Bible believing, faith affirming Christians who have total freedom to smoke, and they do not believe this in any way conflicts with their body being a temple of the Spirit. For them, smoking is not a sin because it is done in good faith.

Please read my posts more carefully. I have clearly acknowledged that there are other considerations that might lead a Christian to legitimately opt for cremation. All I have argued is that cremation sends a less than desirable message to the world about the value we ascribe to our embodied physicality.

Noted and my apologies for misrepresenting your views...I do try to keep up on all that everyone has posted, but this has been a very busy thread today.

No. Using this kind of argument, one can say that determinations of what "sin" is are always matters of "personal conviction" or belief.

Always? Hardly, the bible is quite clear on things that God condemns as sin. This is why I think it is presumptuous of us to conclude that things not identified as sin are sinful is a bad idea...God is more than capable and already has clarified what is sin and unrighteous. He doesn't need us to pad out the list.

I found the exchange between Nick and you indicative of my own responses here:

You: "Surely you must agree that there are many things we can reasonably conclude are unethical for the Christian even if there is no explicit "thou shalt not.....". command against it.

Is there a Biblical prohibition against speeding? No. Is it wrong? Clearly it is.

So why did God "forget" to tell us this?"

Nick: "In regards to your speeding analogy, that is a different situation. Driving at fast speeds I do not think is a sin. Consider the autobahns in Germany. There is often no speed limit, and cars can be seen driving at over 200km/h. If a driver can safely drive at that speed, then what's the problem?
So then we can come to the conclusion that speeding is a sin because it is against the law (government law), and God told us to obey the government. "

Herein lies the answer to your question "Why did God "forget" to tell us (that speeding is "wrong")...because speeding isn't wrong except when it is against the law, and God did tell us to obey the laws of our land. If I'm ever on the autobahns in a Jaguar XKR-S...I'll push that baby to the limit and love every moment. But, I'm not going to push my Expedition to its limit here in Idaho, because it's against the law to do so.

Why did you not answer my clear questions about smoking, handy?

I did, post #65...."Not the thread for the smoking debate...just want to discuss the principle of not burdening others with our own convictions..."

After my misspeak regarding your views, I did go back and more carefully read your posts...and I'd like to address this:

You: "The point is what message your decision to burn the body transmits to the broader world. The people in that broader world already have this "soul" vs "body" distinction in mind. So when you burn the body, you are implicitly telling the world what you believe about the nature of the human person. On the other hand, if you bury the whole body, the decomposition is "out of your hands", so the message is entirely different."

This is really just an assumption...it's what you believe one is saying regarding cremation...but hardly the views of others, and hardly the views of the world. I think you would be hard pressed to accurately answer what I actually believe is the "nature of the human person" based upon my attitudes towards cremation.


Enough for this post...in my next I'll address your post #73...

 

[jasoncran]

Cremation absolutely. It's cheaper, takes up less space and then my body doesn't rot. I wouldn't mind having my ashes scattered in the ocean either.

I like the quote from the Prayerbook, Dora.

Whether there is a physical or spiritual resurrection, I do not think matters in regards to cremation vs burial. If God wants to resurrect our physical bodies, He can do it no matter what we do to destroy them. Keep in mind that any bodies older than 100 years would have decomposed anyway. Ashes and dust = same thing really.

The arguement that cremation sends a message to the world that is negative I think is an incorrect assumption. To me, it sends a message that our God is Powerful and Amighty, regardless of anything we can do. If God did not want us cremated, even for the reason of sending the world a wrong message, then He would have said so. I am also much more concerned with the messages I send to the world while I am living.

during the time of christ and the time of the maccabees and persian domination the greeks burned their dead in funeral pires and put drachmas on the eyes of the dead.That was done so that the deceased could pay charon to cross the river styx to enter hades.

so if God had a problem with any burning of the body, surely that would have been adressed.

 

[Lewis]

One more time.

Jesus further illustrated a perspective towards the disposal of the body when he spoke to one who would follow Him: Luke 9:59-60 says, “He said to another man, ‘Follow me.’ But the man replied, ‘Lord, first let me go and bury my father.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.’†At first, this appears to be a harsh and unfeeling response, but Jesus was determined that those who followed Him would give Him their full attention; disposing of the body of the dead was obviously of very low priority. If the Bible renders a low priority to this issue then it would seem that the method of disposal may be left to individual taste and, perhaps, other societal and environmental dictates.
Christian Views on Cremation

 

[Elijah674]

Makes a guy think of hells ash's & S. & G. + worms?? (Christ's paradox) Whatever? Seems like a lot of 'smoke' & nothing left until a miraculous resurrection takes place to me.

--Elijah

 

[Nick]

One more time.

Jesus further illustrated a perspective towards the disposal of the body when he spoke to one who would follow Him: Luke 9:59-60 says, “He said to another man, ‘Follow me.’ But the man replied, ‘Lord, first let me go and bury my father.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.’†At first, this appears to be a harsh and unfeeling response, but Jesus was determined that those who followed Him would give Him their full attention; disposing of the body of the dead was obviously of very low priority. If the Bible renders a low priority to this issue then it would seem that the method of disposal may be left to individual taste and, perhaps, other societal and environmental dictates.
Christian Views on Cremation