Cremation or Burial

[Pizzaguy]

If you think this is not important, think of how many Christians erroneoulsy believe they will spend eternity without a physical body. This is clearly incorrect Biblically - you had better learn to "like" your physicality, you will have it forever, thanks be to God.

If we have a physical body in eternity, then we must BE somewhere physical for eternity.

So, that means that there is a physical place that will exist forever. I don't see how that can be.

 

[Free]

If we have a physical body in eternity, then we must BE somewhere physical for eternity.

So, that means that there is a physical place that will exist forever. I don't see how that can be.

Do you think we all just float around in nothingness? Or do you think it is a state of mind where we merely think we're alive when we're not?

The Bible is very clear that the earth and the heavens will be renewed, we will get "new" bodies, and we will physically exist in a physical place for eternity.

 

[Drew]

So, that means that there is a physical place that will exist forever. I don't see how that can be.

Well, the Bible teaches that the physical creation will be restored, not destroyed.

Our eternal home will be right here. On a transformed and healed earth. Remember what Revelation teaches - at the end the new Jerusalem descends to earth.

And then there is this. How can one possibly believe that physical creation will be done away with given this Pauline statement:

For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-28138>21</SUP> that<SUP class=footnote sizcache="1" sizset="44" value='[h]'>[h]</SUP> the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God

The belief in a "disembodied eternity in heaven" is one of the most pervasive errors in the modern church.

 

[Lewis]

What about people that get blown up, or people who get burned up in house fires. What about people who are killed and dismembered and their bodies spread everywhere like in another state. I am not trying to be funny here, but this stuff goes on all the time. Will they go to hell because someone threw a hand grenade in their tent and they were blown to bits ? Can God not raise them again ?

 

[WIP]

Being cremated is not going to send you to hell.
And to the other comment up there, being buried in a sealed coffin causes anaerobic bacteria to thrive, because it thrives were there is no oxygen. Thereby turning your body into a very foul smelling black greenish liquid soup, that can and does at times make the casket burst open, because of built up gases, that have no escape.

I like your description. Too bad we don’t have an emoticon for “eeeeewww.†I think you might have mistaken my meaning. I am in agreement with you. Just pointing out that whether my earthly body is returned to the ashes and dust of the earth in a few hours by fire or a few years by being devoured and converted into a blackish green slimy goo doesn’t really matter in the grand scheme of things. If it did, then anyone that died by fire would have a problem I guess.

 

[Drew]

What about people that get blown up, or people who get burned up in house fires. What about people who are killed and dismembered and their bodies spread everywhere like in another state. I am not trying to be funny here, but this stuff goes on all the time. Will they go to hell because someone threw a hand grenade in their tent and they were blown to bits ? Can God not raise them again ?

Some other poster may have suggested that we need to be buried so the "bits will be there to be resurrected". I, for one, am certainly not saying any such thing.

My argument (and I think Free is arguing the same point) is the symbolic message transmitted by the decision to cremate, not the question of "what God can, or cannot do, in respect to resurrecting people.

 

[Pizzaguy]

What about people that get blown up, or people who get burned up in house fires. What about people who are killed and dismembered and their bodies spread everywhere like in another state. I am not trying to be funny here, but this stuff goes on all the time. Will they go to hell because someone threw a hand grenade in their tent and they were blown to bits ? Can God not raise them again ?

If God can raise a decayed dead body, he can raise a dead body of one whose ashes have been spread ANYWHERE! THAT I am certain. :yes

I just don't take a lot of this "New Heaven and New Earth" stuff literally. I find the idea of an eternal PHYSICAL existence to be, well, an odd way for God to do things. THINK for a minute, I die, my body decays, but during that time, I am with the Lord.

OBVIOUSLY, I can exist with Him while my body lays and rots... as is happening with those who have died to this point. I just don't see the big deal in why God would go to the trouble of LITERALLY building a new, physical earth SOMEDAY.

 

[Drew]

I just don't take a lot of this "New Heaven and New Earth" stuff literally.

What do you mean? Do you think Paul is mistaken when he speaks of God liberating, yes, creation, from its bondage to decay. In what sense can this be taken other than a statement that creation will be renewed.

And what about 1 Corinthians 15 where we are told we will get a resurrection body just like the one Jesus has. Do you not agree that such a body lasts forever - Paul certainly believes this, since he says this body will be immortal.

I find the idea of an eternal PHYSICAL existence to be, well, an odd way for God to do things.

On the contrary, I think that unless God successfully redeems (rescues) His creation, described as "very good" in Genesis, it would seem something less than perfect restoration has occurred.

I just don't see the big deal in why God would go to the trouble of LITERALLY building a new, physical earth SOMEDAY.

What about "new heavens and new earth"?

 

[Pizzaguy]

I might be able to answer more later, gotta get to rehearsal... but again, it just does not add up to me: for several thousand years now, deceased believers have existed in a spiritual heaven with God. They are just as alive and real and conscious as you and I ... there is no need to put them back into physical bodies.

I'll think about this some, and come back to the thread later.

I have some verses to read as well....

 

[Chris]

I am going to a big old Aussie bbq at the crematorium, and they can scatter my ashes in the mountains.

 

[Drew]

They are just as alive and real and conscious as you and I ... there is no need to put them back into physical bodies.

Well, of course there is no "need". But the Bible says what it says, we will get immortal resurrection bodies.

I do not intend to pick on you personally - in fact, until a few years ago, I held the same view as you seem to. But it is quite interesting how prevalent this belief is in a disembodied eternity, given that it is obviously Biblically incorrect.

I think this shows the power of Greek dualist thinking - the body / soul split - that has influenced thinking in west.

Remember the creed: "I believe in the resurrection of the body".

 

[Riverwolf]

The message I am concerned about sending to the world, are the messages I send every day with my speech, conduct, behavior and priorities - not the question of whether or not my dead body is laying in the ground.

Way good answer. Amen.

I even go as far to ask my wife to make sure I am buried in a wood box as opposed to an air tight casket so that when the resurrection happens i won't be trapped I some funky non biodegradable box.

Are you serious?

Being cremated is not going to send you to hell.
And to the other comment up there, being buried in a sealed coffin causes anaerobic bacteria to thrive, because it thrives were there is no oxygen. Thereby turning your body into a very foul smelling black greenish liquid soup, that can and does at times make the casket burst open, because of built up gases, that have no escape.

You ruined my lunch!

Somehow the thought of a graveyard with the ground bursting open and all these dead people climbing out gives me a chill. Sounds like a zombie movie. Google says approx 99,000,000,000 people have already died. Some of them must be everywhere, even under our houses. Anyway those who choose casket and burial, please pay in advance, don't leave that expense on your family.

This is my first multi-quote, hope it works.

 

[Lehigh3]

Which do you prefer, Cremation or Burial, some Christians say that cremation is not Biblical. With cremation you return to dust much faster. While being buried, if you are embalmed right, and because you are underground where it is cool, you can last up to 35 or more years before you waste away, providing ground water has not breached your casket. So what do you say, Cremation or Burial ? And if you don't agree with cremation why ? And if you don't think that it is Biblical, prove it.

Cremation is the "cleanest" way to go. Who wants insects eating their bodies. even if the flesh goes to the dust & we don't feel anything. I'd rather be set loose in outer space than be under the ground!

No it's not true, about ta resurrection of our same molecules & bodies. No, our new bodies are waiting in heaven- which God gives us.

And that buried body's had a large tree root growing right through one poor body's mouth & eye sockets! Yuk.

Cremation for me too pls!

 

[handy]

Handy, do you believe that a certain behaviour must be specifically endorsed through a "thou shalt do x" in order for it to be embraced? Are we ever "commanded" to fight global warming? I doubt it. Is it appropriate for Christians to advocate for environmental responsibility in this respect? Of course.

I am very suspicious of arguments that go along the lines of "The Bible does not speak to cremation, which means there is no condemnation of it" and therefore "surely this is an area in which Christians have the liberty to do whatever doesn't go against their conscience."

As far as embracing a certain behavior, or thinking something is appropriate, OK...the fact that historically the Jews and the Christians means that it's a long standing tradition...one not specific to Judiasm or Christianity either. But, the fact that this tradition was around for a long time, and was the way Christ was buried certainly means there is no problems with burial.

But, gee...to say that we need be suspicious of arguments that state that there is no biblical command either for burial or against cremation makes me wonder...just what to we base our arguments on then? Traditions of men?

Does it not speak volumes that Judaism and orthdox Christianity do not cremate, that it seems to be only paganism which has historically done so? Does this not suggest that cremation is pagan in origin?

Burial is pagan as well. There are pagan burial grounds and traditions all over the world. Burial tends to be the way most cultures handle their dead. The Egyptians forbade cremation, insisting upon burial as the only proper way to allow the transition of the soul to the next world.

Drew, Free, I respect you guys, I really do...but at the same time, just because you feel strongly that the tradition of burial is the only way a Christian should handle their remains doesn't mean that I have to...no more than I have to embrace "global warming" and become an environmental activist. (To that let me say that it's my sincere belief that environmental activism denies that the planet is in God's hand to preserve or destroy. To me, environmental activism smacks of secular humanism.)

This is one of these times when I truly wish we could be talking face to face instead of over the 'net, because what I'm about to say next might sound really snarky, and I don't think a smilie guy is going to mitigate that...trust me when I say I'm saying this with patience and love and not being snitty...

Not one of the brethren is higher than our Lord. It is from our Lord that we take our commandments, through His inspired word, and through the Holy Spirit. To tell other Christians that they must do something or cannot do something else because one feels very strongly about the issue, when there is no commandment or condemnation within the Scriptures about it, is just wrong. As Paul stated in speaking about matters of conscience, "Who are you to judge the servant of another Master?"

We can and should hold each other accountable to the precepts in the Scriptures. But to take an issue in which there is neither command nor condemnation and try to make it a "law"...is sinning the sin of the Pharisees.

 

[Bonairos]

I think an important subtlety is often overlooked about Jesus' resurrection that speaks to the point you raise. When Jesus was resurrected, did He get an entirely "new" body? Not really. The graveclothes were empty - Jesus' resurrection body was formed out of His old one. If that were not so, we would still have Jesus' 'corruptible' body in the tomb. And what about the marks of the crucifixion in his hands.

But wait, (in trying to see your point) I was under the impression that Jesus' body was untainted by sin (blood or otherwise) and that 'body', in that regard, was unlike any other. Perhaps I'm wrong.

This is relevant to the topic since cremation implicitly, albeit subtly, denies this important truth. By cremating the body, you send the world the message that God is not going to redeem his fallen creation. Why does cremation send such a message? Well, when you intentionally burn away the "old", you are, by that very action, declaring the old to be "valueless" and worthy of incineration.

Whether cremation or burial, seriously, what 'message' is remembered when we're gone? How we disposed of this dead corruptible body or How we lived while in it?

That denies an important theological truth - God is in the "repairing" business, not in the "replacing" business.

Again I may be mistaken but I was under the impression that God was more so in the "redeeming" business.



Just my thoughts in attempting to follow this thread.



Be blessed, Stay blessed!

 

[handy]

What do you mean? Do you think Paul is mistaken when he speaks of God liberating, yes, creation, from its bondage to decay. In what sense can this be taken other than a statement that creation will be renewed.

And what about 1 Corinthians 15 where we are told we will get a resurrection body just like the one Jesus has. Do you not agree that such a body lasts forever - Paul certainly believes this, since he says this body will be immortal.


On the contrary, I think that unless God successfully redeems (rescues) His creation, described as "very good" in Genesis, it would seem something less than perfect restoration has occurred.


What about "new heavens and new earth"?

Now these are things I find myself in full agreement with.

Pizzaguy, the subjects of the physical resurrection of our bodies and the new heavens and new earth are worthy of threads in their own right. The new heaven and new earth being literal or symbolic can be discussed, but I'll go on record with you that belief in a physical resurrection of the body should be considered an essential of Christian faith. (However, I think we might stray too far off the topic of cremation or burial in discussing it here.)

 

[Drew]

Way good answer. Amen.

I am sorry, but PG's answer was not "way good". The fact that he is rightly concerned with how he lives does not, of course, mean that decisions he makes about how his body is treated after death are not important also.

 

[Drew]

But, gee...to say that we need be suspicious of arguments that state that there is no biblical command either for burial or against cremation makes me wonder...just what to we base our arguments on then? Traditions of men?

False choice. We are not forced to choose between "explicit Biblical commands" on the one hand and "traditions of men" on the other.

We had this same issue in the smoking thread where people arguing that since there is no "thou shalt not smoke" command, this means that damaging your body through smoking is not sin.

But it clearly is sin - the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and is God's creation. So damaging it needlessly must be sin, even if there is no "comnmand".

Do you see my point?

 

[Drew]

But wait, (in trying to see your point) I was under the impression that Jesus' body was untainted by sin (blood or otherwise) and that 'body', in that regard, was unlike any other. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Well, that's true. But the Bible account is what it is. There really is no doubt - the resurrection body of Jesus is indeed "connected" to his "pre-resurrection" body. We know this mosr certainly because it bore the crucifixion marks. But the absence of an "old body" in the tomb also strongly suggests that the nature of Jesus' resurrection involved a transformation of the dead body into the resurrection body. If not, we would expect the old body to still be in the tomb.

Interestingly, what happened to Jesus tells us something important about the nature of what God is doing in the world in terms of the broad plan of redemption. God is not "throwing out the bad creation and replacing it with a new one", He is instead transforming, renewing, and redeeming the fallen creation.

And this should really be no surprise. Back in Genesis, creation is described as "very good". If God has to "throw it away", His redemption plan was not perfect - something "very good" was forever lost.

 

[Drew]

Whether cremation or burial, seriously, what 'message' is remembered when we're gone? How we disposed of this dead corruptible body or How we lived while in it?

This is another false choice. Clearly both how we live and the decisions we make about our "dead" bodies can indeed send a message.

To make the point more clearly. Imagine if somebody thought "Well, I've lived a good life and when I die, I would be happy to have someone toss my body in a dumpster along with all sorts of "garbage".

This would clearly send a deeply dehumanizing message - that the human person is "garbage" once dead. So what we decide to do with our bodies after death does have some impact. I am not suggesting it is anywhere near the impact asscociated with how we live.