Cremation or Burial

[Drew]

Drew, brother, I think you're beginning to stretch here a bit.

My answer is, of course it would be sin to drive drunk because the Bible explicitly tells us to not be drunk.

The example should about driving while blinfolded, forget the reference to driving drunk.

And it is clearly not just "silly" to drive blindfolded. It is sin - you are knowingly endangering the lives of others. And I don't need a "command" in the Bible to tell me this.

 

[handy]

One last post on this thread...then I'm outta here, both metaphorically and physically, I'm supposed to be helping my m-i-l and should have left the house a half hour ago...


I am saying Drew...and please take this in...that the Holy Spirit is more than capable of cleansing His own temple as He resides in me. My body is indeed His temple...and He makes it clear when I'm doing things He dislikes.

Believe it or not, He doesn't need your help in this. We are in the days when He is writing His laws upon our hearts...He does so by the Scriptures and by the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Step back and let God work in the hearts of your brothers and sisters. It might not be to your liking...but I'm sure that the Holy Spirit has enough "cleaning" to do in the temple that is you...for you to be so worried about others living up to your expectations.

I understand logical progressions...but it is a very poor way to determine what is sin and what isn't...it leads to burdening others with yokes we were never meant to bear. Jesus said to take His yoke upon us, because His yoke is easy and His burden is light. And, I don't believe either He or the Holy Spirit has called upon us to burden others with the results of our own, human logic.

Bye!

 

[Drew]

I am saying Drew...and please take this in...that the Holy Spirit is more than capable of cleansing His own temple as He resides in me. My body is indeed His temple...and He makes it clear when I'm doing things He dislikes.

Believe it or not, He doesn't need your help in this. We are in the days when He is writing His laws upon our hearts...He does so by the Scriptures and by the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Step back and let God work in the hearts of your brothers and sisters.
It might not be to your liking...but I'm sure that the Holy Spirit has enough "cleaning" to do in the temple that is you...for you to be so worried about others living up to your expectations.

This sounds nice, but it is really not correct. This is just a polite way of saying "Drew, we are not that interested in the relevant Biblical arguments and we are going to rely on the Holy Spirit to tell us what is right and what is wrong".

Well, I suspect you know how easily this can be a cop-out. I think of the "stripper for God" who was convinced she was doing the Lord's work because stripping is what "she felt she was being led to do".

Handy, you are very politely engaging in the same behaviour that others engaged in, in less polite form in the smoking thread - changing the topic from the matter at issue into a suggestion that I am some kind of moralizing Pharisee, sticking my nose in where it does not belong.

And there is also the same entirely unacceptable suggestion that I am being hypocritical ("I'm sure that the Holy Spirit has enough "cleaning" to do in the temple that is you"). You really should not make such an implication. Even though it is no doubt true, it really is way of bending the conversation away from the matter at issue. We should not be talking about me and my walk, we should be talking about the issue of cremation.

As per the comments that I quoted from another person who shares my view, there are indeed Biblical themes that suggest that cremation is not the best way to go.

It is a shame that you choose to make this an issue about me, and how well I keep my own house in order.

 

[Drew]

I understand logical progressions...but it is a very poor way to determine what is sin and what isn't...it leads to burdening others with yokes we were never meant to bear. Jesus said to take His yoke upon us, because His yoke is easy and His burden is light. And, I don't believe either He or the Holy Spirit has called upon us to burden others with the results of our own, human logic.

Bye!

I am sorry, but you are evading the argument. If Jesus says:

1. Fred is taller than Joe;
2. Joe is taller than Mike;

...we can certainly can conclude that He believes Fred is taller than Mike.

You would not face this truth in relation to the matter of smoking. And you generalize, suggesting that "logical thinking" is a "poor way" to determine what sin is. Well I don't need an explicit statement of "thou shalt not smoke" to conclude that smoking is sin, given that such a conclusion follows logically from things we know:

1. The body is the temple of the Holy Spirit;
2. Smoking only damages the body and is avoidable.

The issue of smoking is not the point. The point is that you seem to think we cannot use the basic principles of logical thinking to reach conclusions about the "sin status" of activities about which the Bible is silent.

 

[handy]

The point is that you seem to think we cannot use the basic principles of logical thinking to reach conclusions about the "sin status" of activities about which the Bible is silent.

You are right...I do not. There is a reason why I balk at extrapolating things out when it comes to calling something sin. That reason is found in Proverbs 14:12:

There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

The Pharisees did exactly what you are describing here, Drew...they took the Law of Moses and decided, "Well, if we can't travel on the Sabbath...we must then determine what is "traveling" as opposed to what is just going from one place to another. They actually had ropes around different areas and taught that to go past those ropes on the Sabbath was "sin". They did this thinking that this was the right thing to do...to help everyone understand what constituted "traveling"...but in the end, it was the way of death...their hedging the law did not save them, nor did it enable them to recognize what Truth was when He walked in their midst.

I'm not saying that we should never exercise our human reason and logic...I tend to be a fairly logical person myself. I'm just saying that there are limitations to human logic and since there is, we must not describe something is sinful for the whole of the Body based on nothing more than our logic.

When the Bible is silent about something...it isn't our job to rush in and "fill in the blanks". It is the Holy Spirit's, and He is much more capable to doing this than you or I.

 

[Pizzaguy]

Remind me to never debate anything theological with you, Handy.


But more to the point, I thought about this as I was driving to and from a call I had to make at a local hospital. Drew is doing almost exactly what I used to do. I was about 30 when my Pastor finally pulled me aside and said: "Mark, I think you must be more careful about over-intellectualizing God's word. This is not about human reason and logic, it's about faith, and we must be careful to not put words into God's mouth... You will find more answers thru prayer than thru intense analysis of His word."

He went on with other advice. I vowed to forget his advice above, and in doing so, unintentionally made it so that I NEVER forgot his words!

Drew: I think that your intentions are probably as pure as mine were then, but I DO think you are making the same mistake that I was. ;)

 

[handy]

Drew, just now saw your other post.

I'm sorry if it seems as if I'm trying to make this out about you or trying to make it sound as if you hypocritial...I certainly do not believe for a moment that you are hypocritical...rather that you are quite sincere in following God as closely as you can, and this I admire...I truly didn't mean to make the post "about you" personally, but rather was trying to speak to the fact that all of us, you, me, everyone on this board and all within the Church have enough of our own "temple cleasning" to be worried about other's temples. I remain adamant in my belief that it is the Holy Spirit who will direct His children in matters not directly spoken of in the Scriptures.


Nor do I believe that you are a moralizing Pharisee...but, I do see your mistake as being the same mistake the Pharisees made...extrapolating things out, quite logically, to an end that God did not desire.

When you say, "This is just a polite way of saying "Drew, we are not that interested in the relevant Biblical arguments and we are going to rely on the Holy Spirit to tell us what is right and what is wrong"...you seem to forget that we are speakin of issues that don't have true "relevant" Biblical arguments...but rather we must glean from how the Scriptures speak to other issues in regards to these things.

In the case of burial versus cremation...the Scriptures neither commans one nor condemns the other. You have drawn from certain passages why you believe burial to be better than cremation. Other can draw from other passages as to why cremation is a better choice than burial.

In the case of smoking be a sin...you have taken a biblical truth...that the body is the temple of the Spirit, and a medical fact...that smoking is unhealthy, to logically conclude that smoking is sinful. To which I can reply, every bit as biblically validly as your "logical argument" that it is not what goes into the body that defiles a man, and that all things are lawful as long as it is done in faith.

As Paul would say in regards to these things...each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

Now, Paul did say that "all things are lawful" but I think Paul would amend, if it were necessary, that this isn't to say there is no sinful behavior and that which the Bible condemns as sin, is sin. So, our "stripper for the Lord" doesn't get a pass because we can point to any number of texts that will show that taking one's clothes off for the purpose sexually arousing of men is indeed sin.

How does all this relate to burial versus cremation...because the way to determine whether or not something is permissible is to apply Biblical principles...and if there are no commandments or condemnations of something...then the biblical principle to apply is usually the principle of liberty.


Mark, as my daughter would say..."BRING IT ON, OH YEAH!"

Seriously, I don't want to blather on and on about this...but this thread reminds me so much of all the other many threads on forums like this, "Can a Christian ...." or "Is is sinful to...". The simple matter is, if the Bible says it is sin, it is sin. If the Bible doesn't say it, then it is a matter of conscience and again, "Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind."

 

[jasoncran]

the cranmans have historically chosen mauseleoms per hebrew tradition. the isreali/hebrew tradition is this, the rabbi sprinkes sand from isreal with the family of the deceased. as the hebrew believes that the deceased will be raised with a body in isreal in his original land. till then he carries the sand with him in the after life.

why do i say this? look at what they have and believe? do we not have the same promise? we have a land that isnt seen and is coming by promise. many a cranmans are now dust. yet those that buried them believed what they did.

sound familiar.

 

[Lewis]

I rather be cremated, than let my body go through all of this below, even though my body won't know it.I use to study this stuff because I wanted to be a mortician, I have a friend who is still trying to get me to do it because is in school right now learning to be one, and she is about 58 years old. I think that it is to late for me now. But anyway just cremate me.

When someone's heart stops pumping blood around their body, the tissues and cells are deprived of oxygen and rapidly begin to die.

But different cells die at different rates. So, for example, brain cells die within three to seven minutes, while skin cells can be taken from a dead body for up to 24 hours after death and still grow normally in a laboratory culture.

But contrary to folklore, this doesn't mean that hair and nails continue to grow after death, although shrinkage of the skin can make it seem this way.

From this point on, nature is very efficient at breaking down human corpses. Decomposition is well under way by the time burial or cremation occurs. However, the exact rate of decomposition depends to some extent on environmental conditions.

Decomposition in the air is twice as fast as when the body is under water and four times as fast as underground. Corpses are preserved longer when buried deeper, as long as the ground isn't waterlogged.

The intestines are packed with millions of micro-organisms that don't die with the person. These organisms start to break down the dead cells of the intestines, while some, especially bacteria called clostridia and coliforms, start to invade other parts of the body.

At the same time the body undergoes its own intrinsic breakdown under the action of enzymes and other chemicals which have been released by the dead cells. The pancreas, for example, is usually packed with digestive enzymes, and so rapidly digests itself
The decomposing tissues release green substances and gas, which make the skin green/blue and blistered, starting on the abdomen. The front of the body swells, the tongue may protrude, and fluid from the lungs oozes out of the mouth and nostrils.

This unpleasant sight is added to by a terrible smell as gases such as hydrogen sulphide (rotten egg smell), methane and traces of mercaptans are released. This stage is reached in temperate countries after about four to six days, much faster in the tropics and slower in cold or dry conditions.

oh and alsoA corpse left above ground is then rapidly broken down by insects and animals, including bluebottles and carrion fly maggots, followed by beetles, ants and wasps.

In the tropics, a corpse can become a moving mass of maggots within 24 hours.

If there are no animals to destroy the body, hair, nails and teeth become detached within a few weeks, and after a month or so the tissues become liquefied and the main body cavities burst open.

Burial in a coffin slows the process

The whole process is generally slower in a coffin, and the body may remain identifiable for many months. Some tissues, such as tendons and ligaments, are more resistant to decomposition, while the uterus and prostate glands may last several months.

But within a year all that is usually left is the skeleton and teeth, with traces of the tissues on them - it takes 40 to 50 years for the bones to become dry and brittle in a coffin. In soil of neutral acidity, bones may last for hundreds of years, while acid peaty soil gradually dissolves the bones.

 

[Nick]

Drew, I honestly don't have the time at the moment to continue to discuss this with you, as I know that it will go on for a while.

In any sense, I agree with Dora's post at #90. It states my poistion also.

However, in regards to what you and Dora said about goin from 1 to 2 and then logically thinking then 3 comes next, I agree that in many cases - including the speeding analogy - that works. But I do not think it works in this case. And I think that the scripture Lewis posted fruther enforces that, this is a case of liberty.

With that, I may bow out now.

 

[Drew]

You are right...I do not. There is a reason why I balk at extrapolating things out when it comes to calling something sin. That reason is found in Proverbs 14:12:

There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

The Pharisees did exactly what you are describing here, Drew...they took the Law of Moses and decided, "Well, if we can't travel on the Sabbath...we must then determine what is "traveling" as opposed to what is just going from one place to another.

No handy, I am not doing what the Pharisee are doing. You are muzzling the Bible, suggesting that if there is no "thou shalt not smoke", or "thou shalt not drive blindfolded" one-liner, that we cannot, otherwise reasonably conclude that both these behaviours are sin. You have pretty much conceded that if Jesus had said:

1. Fred is taller than Joe;
2. Joe is taller than Mike;

....that we cannot therefore conclude, even if Jesus does not explicitly say so, that Jesus believes Fred to be taller than Mike.

We must be a little more sophisticated in our exegesis than to simply think "If the Bible doesn't explicitly forbid it, it must be OK, or a matter of personal conviction"

There is a huge difference between a Pharisee over-legalizing a Biblical principle and someone draw legitimate inferences based on Biblical principles. The smoking example shows this - if the body is the temple, and smoking damages the body, it logically follows that to smoke is to damage the temple. If you do not think that's sin, well good luck with that.

I blame a legion of Sunday School teachers for this - teaching students an overly simplistic view of the Bible as an index of "rules" for living. In so doing, they muzzle what the Scriptures want to tell us. We need to look at more than the "thou shalt nots" and discern what the narrative in general is telling us about how we should live our lives.

 

[Drew]

But I do not think it works in this case. And I think that the scripture Lewis posted fruther enforces that, this is a case of liberty.

No one has explained precisely how it is that the text that Lewis posted suggests that what we do with our bodies after death is of no concern at all. Please explain why you think otherwise, appealing to the actual text.

All I see is an implication that how we live is more important than how we deal with the dead. Well, this is not news. No one, least of all me, is suggesting otherwise.

Did you read the post where I quoted another person's argument against cremation? Please tell us why you think that argument misses the mark.

 

[Drew]

I was about 30 when my Pastor finally pulled me aside and said: "Mark, I think you must be more careful about over-intellectualizing God's word.

I hardly think that putting 2 and 2 together and getting 4 is "over-intellectualizing". I know this thread is not about smoking, but the smoking argument is a perfect example of a legitimate inference we can draw - we know the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. And we know that smoking damages the body. Is it really "over-intellectualization" to conclude that, yes, smoking is sin precisely because it is willful, yet avoidable, damage to the place where God lives?

I suggest that red flags should be raised when, as happened in the smoking thread, clear Biblical arguments not engaged and effectively dismissed. The following pattern recurs with alarming frequency in this forum:

1. Person A asserts position X;
2. Person B argues Biblically against position X;
3. Person A suggests that Person B is "over-intellectualizing" .

This, of course, is almost certainly a strategy on the part of person B to avoid having to deal with the arguments of person B.

I do not think it is possible to "over-intellectualize". What is possible, of course, is to make mistakes in one's reasoning. But the last thing we need in 21st century evangelicalism is to discourage careful, Biblical thinking.

 

[Drew]

I remain adamant in my belief that it is the Holy Spirit who will direct His children in matters not directly spoken of in the Scriptures.

Well, on this point we are at a fundamental impasse. For my part, I believe that many of the authoritative messages in Bible are implicit - not spelled out in "thou shalt do X" or "thou shalt not do Y". So, for example, I would not need to "ask the Holy Spirit" if its OK to drive while blindfolded, I would reason that since the theme of the sanctity of life is woven through the Biblical narrative, and since driving blindfolded would put life at risk, that therefore driving blindfold would be sin.

I am quite alarmed that you, and many others, would need to "appeal to the Holy Spirit" on such a matter, as if the appropriate direction were not there in the Bible, albeit in an indirect form. But, to each his / her own.

 

[brooks]

Burial is much expensive than cremation... but greener way of cremation is the best...that is body liquefaction.... it will produce greenhouse gas...

 

[for_his_glory]

My husband and I want to be cremated and our ashes thrown into the Allegheny River where we have a camp. I studied about cremation in scripture before we decided on it and never found anything against it. It's not our natural body because it is corrupt, but it is the spirit that is raised that puts on incorruption to live with Christ for eternity or the spirit raised corruptible to face Gods judgement as flesh and blood can not inherit heaven or hell.

Sinner or saint through out history have been burned by fire and their bodies reduced to just ash. We became a living soul when God breathed life into us. A soul is a person. The Bible says a soul is a living, breathing being, your life, your mind, or your heart. The Bible does not say a soul is an immortal, independent, separate spirit entity in you with it's own consciousness that can live apart from the body for all eternity. God is spirit and it is the spirit in us that is raised to put on incorruptible if our spirit is in Christ as spirit is the immaterial part of humanity.

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.â€

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

 

[Lewis]

I have not fished in the Allegheny around the Lancaster area in about 13 or 14 years.

 

[jasoncran]

My husband and I want to be cremated and our ashes thrown into the Allegheny River where we have a camp. I studied about cremation in scripture before we decided on it and never found anything against it. It's not our natural body because it is corrupt, but it is the spirit that is raised that puts on incorruption to live with Christ for eternity or the spirit raised corruptible to face Gods judgement as flesh and blood can not inherit heaven or hell.

Sinner or saint through out history have been burned by fire and their bodies reduced to just ash. We became a living soul when God breathed life into us. A soul is a person. The Bible says a soul is a living, breathing being, your life, your mind, or your heart. The Bible does not say a soul is an immortal, independent, separate spirit entity in you with it's own consciousness that can live apart from the body for all eternity. God is spirit and it is the spirit in us that is raised to put on incorruptible if our spirit is in Christ as spirit is the immaterial part of humanity.

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.â€

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

very true the nt has three words for soul(soma,psyche and psuche)

whereas the ot has five.

 

[Ace1234]

I see no problem with whatever burial method is used. My grandfather was killed in the navy during WW2, burned to a crisp and buried at sea, face it, in a matter of days he became fish poop.

God is not resurrecting our physical earthly bodies, nor is the dust required. Many have died terrible deaths having their bodies done away with, there were even a small number of japanese Christians that were killed from the nuclear bomb in WW2, into dust in seconds.

Some decide to donate their body to medical research, a wonderful gift.

 

[Drew]

My husband and I want to be cremated and our ashes thrown into the Allegheny River where we have a camp. I studied about cremation in scripture before we decided on it and never found anything against it. It's not our natural body because it is corrupt, but it is the spirit that is raised that puts on incorruption to live with Christ for eternity or the spirit raised corruptible to face Gods judgement as flesh and blood can not inherit heaven or hell.

I believe we may have a fundamental disagreement on a critical matter of theology.

I am quite confident of the following: The scriptures teach that the ultimate destiny of "saved" human beings is an embodied one. In other words, we will have bodies. How can there be any doubt about this? We are told we will have a body like the resurrection body of Jesus. And that is most decidedly a "physical" thing, at least in the sense that we will have arms, legs, heads, etc. Granted, our physicality will be a transformed and perfected physicality.

But we will have bodies - this notion of our final state being one of "spirit" is entirely unBiblical.

Now, to be fair, I am not sure that you are embracing this error of believing in a "spirit-only" characterization of the final state of the redeemed human.

Now the connection of this to the matter of cremation is a separate, but related issue. For now, I will not repeat my earlier arguments; I will merely re-assert my belief that conventional burial is the better choice (not because being cremated prevents bodily resurrection, but rather because of the misleading message cremation sends to the rest of the world).