Daniel 2 and the vision of the great statue

[10s3r]

Christian's are convinced that Nebuchadnezzar's vision of the great statue is proof that Rome is the origin of the beast(s). Since Rome crucified Christ, persecuted 1st century Christian's, destroyed Jerusalem and Herod's temple, and persecuted people for defecting from the faith during the reformation, many Christian's believe Rome would also emerge in the latter days as the endtime beasts of Daniel and Revelation.

In Daniel 2, Babylon is the head of gold.

Daniel 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

The only thing said about the second kingdon is that it's inferior to Babylon. What kingdom was inferior to Babylon?
Was Medo-Persia the inferior kingdom? Absolutely not!

The word inferior is "arah" which means earth, world, ground and is the only place the word inferior is translated as such. So if inferior means land, that rules out the Medo-Persian empire as the second empire since it was about three times the size of Babylon. It wasn't 'land inferior' to Babylon. The Median Empire was not only shortlived (about 4 years) but it was also smaller making it the inferior kingdom.

In both Greek and Hebrew inferior means,
to make less,
inferior,
to fall short,
below

The word kingdom in 2:39 not only means a kingdom but a realm of territory. Since obtaining territory is one of the main objectives of war, and since the word inferior/land is the only word used to describe that kingdom, my logical conclusion is that it is a kingdom who's land is smaller than, lower, less than, or inferior to Babylon...just as all the words imply.

In Isaiah 13, God say's He would stir up the Mede's against Babylon. Not the Persian's!

Daniel 5 quotes Darius the Mede as the one who "took" Babylon at the age of 62.

Daniel, Isaiah's, and Jeremiah's prophecies ascribe the conquest and destruction of Babylon to the Medes.

Daniel 5:31
"And Darius the Median took the kingdom, (Babylon) being about threescore and two years old."

Isaiah 13:17
"Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, ie.(Babylon)

Daniel 8:3 explains the inferior kingdom.

I was by the river of Ulai. Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had [two] horns: and the [two] horns [were] high; but one [was] higher than the other, and the higher came up last. I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither [was there any] that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

Daniel 8:19-21
And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end [shall be]. The ram which thou sawest having [two] horns [are] the kings of Media and Persia.

The higher horn that came up last is the Persian Empire. The other horn, the one that was not as high (smaller) that came up first is the Medes. This explains that the Mede's are the smaller kingdom that emerged first...the inferior kingdom of Daniel 2. When the Persian's and the Mede's integrated the two then became the third kingdom of bronze.

Both secularist and many Protestant's believe Cyrus the Persian conquered Babylon but scriptures say that Darius the Mede invaded and conquered Babylon. If they were to agree with Daniel 5:31 that Darius the Mede's took Babylon at age 64, that would blow the revived Roman empire theory right out of the water!

The Medes were superior warriors compared to the Persian's but the Persian's were better engineers and nation builders than the Mede's. The Median kingdom occupied Babylon for only a few years (4) before the Persian's who were already confederate with them combined their efforts under Cyrus the Persian into what became the Ram or the Persian empire who is the third kingdom of brass that was conquered by Greece.

The fourth kingdom, symbolized by the legs of iron (Greece) and toes mingled with "iron and clay", doesn't come from Rome but from the Grecian Empire. That Empire didn't cover Rome or Europe as it was a Mid-East Empire just like the others depicted in the statue. Rome was more of a European Empire and is excluded as the fourth kingdom of Daniel 2. Rome cannot be the origin of the two and ten horned beast. (antichrist and false prophet)

The word mixed used to describe the toes mingled with iron and clay is the Aramaic word "arab" meaning mixed and it denotes an Arabian or Arabia. (Gesenius)

http://www.bluelette...ngs=H6151&t=KJV

Why would God use this word to describe a Roman?!

Daniel 2:41-43
And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.

And [as] the toes of the feet [were] part of iron, and part of clay, [so] the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Daniel tells Nebuchadnezzar much more about the people of iron and clay than the other kingdoms because it's an end-time kingdom that the Lord returns to destroy. So a careful unbiased approach to this passage is crucial in understanding the geographical area and who the people of iron and clay.

Verses 41-43 say the kingdom will be divided and not cleave to one another and mixed with the seed of men? That's not true of Rome or the EU but is certainly true of Arab Islamic countries, cultures, and people. Rome and the EU are a peaceful coalition of nations. They are more unified than the Arab World by far. Arab /Muslim countries throughout the Mid-East Region have always been divided and (to include Northern Africa which has about 250 Arab tribes) have hundreds of different tribes. Iraq has several hundred. They are proud of their heritage and can be your best friend and worse enemy at the same time. Iron and clay describes the mixture of those divided tribes and clans. Their history, the scriptures, (Ishmael their father), and todays world prove they are divided, intermarried, (mixed with the seed of men) and have not cleaved to one another. The NLT uses the word 'intermarried'. The word Arab is a variation of the word 'crossed.' Italy, Italian's, European's, and Catholic's just don't fit in any of this.

The iron and clay describe the final kingdom that hasn't yet formed. But the culture that is to produce it is clearly described as the Arab Islamic world.

Daniel 2:34
Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

The stone or "Jesus" smote the entire image. At Armageddon all the kingdom's of the image which are all Mid-East kingdoms are destroyed. Rome, a European kingdom, is not included.

The geographical area described in Daniel 2 is the land of Ishmaelites and Hagarites and the religion of it today is the Sunni and Shia sects of Islam. These are the people who have evolved into Babylon the Great and who want to see Israel destroyed.

Gen 16:10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her,(Haggar) I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.

Iron and clay just doesn't describe Rome or the EU but most of the unrest in the EU comes from the rising Muslim population. (people of iron and clay, mixed, arab)

History also tells us that the Roman Empire was actually more unified than the Grecian Empire.

Both iron and clay are brittle and they don't mix. Not only do Arab/Islamic countries have fragile alliances, the Arab's have mixed, crossed, and broken up into hundreds of different tribes and clans scattered across the entire Mid-East and northern Africa. The two major sects of Islam have also divided themselves into several different sub-divisions. . Besides being divided, the toes of iron and clay of the fourth kingdom is said to subdue all things. Arab Muslim's have subdued nearly all religions in the region

Daniel 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

 

[Skrumpelnubb]

I agree that the Roman empire isn't mentioned in the statue or among the beasts at all.

Also John writes about the beast that "was, is not, but is coming" in that context he is talking about the beast as "the eight head and still one of the seven" so that must be referring to the beast king. But still, he couldn't write that the beast "is not" if the beast was a Roman empire, since the Roman empire "was" when John wrote those prophecies.

About the two horns of the second beast that John saw, I doubt it is about sunni and shia. If we are to do interpretations of horns consequently, it must be two at the same time living kings, or someone that is impersonating a lamb. I think it's the latter.

The scripture says "two horns like a lamb but spoke like a dragon." That second beast is referring to the false prophet. I think he will be the islamic Jesus!

In islamic prophecies "Isa" Jesus will enter on the scene sometimes under the seven years rule of Al Mahdi (the islamic messiah). He will then claim to be the christian's messiah but not the son of God and never crusified or atoning for anyones sins, only a prophet. But as the christians messiah he will have a lot of authority. He will then leave his authority to Al Mahdi -says their prophecies (hadiths). Interestingly, the same says our prophecies about the false prophet, who "will leave his authority to the first beast".

Everything is twisted like "antiparallells" between islamic and christian prophecies. Their messiah is our antichrist and so on.

Another interesting thing about the islamic prophecies about Isa, is, that he will "abolish the Jizya" witch is a tax imposed on non muslims that protects them in a muslim dominated area.

Islamic prophecies say that Jizya will not be needed anymore since all will be muslims, even christians. Those christians who will not acknowledge Isa as Jesus will then be "out in the cold", lawless.

Since the protection by law is gone, christians who refuse going into Isa's fold, can now be anyones prey without repercussion for the perpetrator. (It's also a sin in islam to believe that Jesus is the son of God, it's idolatry "shirk".) So, when the law is gone, the anti christian spirit will be revealed in the open, to pour it's outlet over the real followers of Christ.

 

[John 8:32]

I agree that the Roman empire isn't mentioned in the statue or among the beasts at all.

Also John writes about the beast that "was, is not, but is coming" in that context he is talking about the beast as "the eight head and still one of the seven" so that must be referring to the beast king. But still, he couldn't write that the beast "is not" if the beast was a Roman empire, since the Roman empire "was" when John wrote those prophecies.

The time frame of John's vantage point is here...

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Rome had fallen...

Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

#1 And the deadly wound was healed by Justinian, 554 AD. This is the first head, the first resurrection of the Holy Roman Empire.
#2 Frankish Kingdom - Charlemagne crowned by the Pope in 800 AD
#3 Otto the Great - Crowned by the Pope in 962 AD
#4 Habsburg Dybasty - Charles V crowned by Pope in 1520 AD
#5 Napolean's Kingdom - Crowned by Pope in 1805
#6 Italy reuntied under Garibaldi and continuing through Mussolini and Hitler 1870 to 1945.

Five have fallen, one is (and that is the historical vantage point of this prophecy) and one is yet to come. It is currently rising in Europe as I type.

Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Refer to Rev 13, there is a political/military leader, the Beast and a religious leader, the False Prophet.

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

These last ten are ten kings that unite under the Beast for a very short time (one hour). Same as the ten toes in Dan 2.

Verse 14 shows the time frame of the ten kings, the return of Christ and

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Mistakenly referred to as Armageddon. Har Meggido is the staging area, the battle occurs in the valley of jehoshaphat.

 

[Skrumpelnubb]

The stone or "Jesus" smote the entire image. At Armageddon all the kingdom's of the image which are all Mid-East kingdoms are destroyed. Rome, a European kingdom, is not included.

Agree.

The geographical area described in Daniel 2 is the land of Ishmaelites and Hagarites and the religion of it today is the Sunni and Shia sects of Islam. These are the people who have evolved into Babylon the Great and who want to see Israel destroyed.

The way I understand what you wrote here, I don't think that's correct. This is what I think:

"Babylon the great" is the Mystery Babylon and the harlot. I think this is referring to the current city of Jerusalem in the current state of Israel. The Bible seem to make that clear in very many ways.

One small example among a myriad is: Rev 18:24 "And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth."

And Jesus says in Luke 13:33 "Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem."

So The Book of Revelation states that all prophets are killed in her (Babylon the great), and Jesus say that no prophet is killed outside Jerusalem. Together with all the other biblical proofs, this really says it all in my opinion!

It's true that the islamic world wants to get rid of the zionist state of Israel and as I see it, that will be done by the beast empire. Rev 17:16 "And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire."

 

[10s3r]

I agree that the Roman empire isn't mentioned in the statue or among the beasts at all.

Also John writes about the beast that "was, is not, but is coming" in that context he is talking about the beast as "the eight head and still one of the seven" so that must be referring to the beast king. But still, he couldn't write that the beast "is not" if the beast was a Roman empire, since the Roman empire "was" when John wrote those prophecies.

About the two horns of the second beast that John saw, I doubt it is about sunni and shia. If we are to do interpretations of horns consequently, it must be two at the same time living kings, or someone that is impersonating a lamb. I think it's the latter.

The scripture says "two horns like a lamb but spoke like a dragon." That second beast is referring to the false prophet. I think he will be the islamic Jesus!

In islamic prophecies "Isa" Jesus will enter on the scene sometimes under the seven years rule of Al Mahdi (the islamic messiah). He will then claim to be the christian's messiah but not the son of God and never crusified or atoning for anyones sins, only a prophet. But as the christians messiah he will have a lot of authority. He will then leave his authority to Al Mahdi -says their prophecies (hadiths). Interestingly, the same says our prophecies about the false prophet, who "will leave his authority to the first beast".

Everything is twisted like "antiparallells" between islamic and christian prophecies. Their messiah is our antichrist and so on.

Another interesting thing about the islamic prophecies about Isa, is, that he will "abolish the Jizya" witch is a tax imposed on non muslims that protects them in a muslim dominated area.

Islamic prophecies say that Jizya will not be needed anymore since all will be muslims, even christians. Those christians who will not acknowledge Isa as Jesus will then be "out in the cold", lawless.

Since the protection by law is gone, christians who refuse going into Isa's fold, can now be anyones prey without repercussion for the perpetrator. (It's also a sin in islam to believe that Jesus is the son of God, it's idolatry "shirk".) So, when the law is gone, the anti christian spirit will be revealed in the open, to pour it's outlet over the real followers of Christ.

As it stands now, and subject to change, I think the two horned beast is Islam or Babylon the Great. But I may be wrong. And the Muslim Jesus is definitely an end-time player. Their Mahdi is probably their own anti-Christ called the dajjal otherwise known as the biblical anti-Christ.
Thanks for an affirmative reply. You're on the right track.

God bless you....

 

[10s3r]

I agree that the Roman empire isn't mentioned in the statue or among the beasts at all.

Also John writes about the beast that "was, is not, but is coming" in that context he is talking about the beast as "the eight head and still one of the seven" so that must be referring to the beast king. But still, he couldn't write that the beast "is not" if the beast was a Roman empire, since the Roman empire "was" when John wrote those prophecies.

The time frame of John's vantage point is here...

Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Rome had fallen...

Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

#1 And the deadly wound was healed by Justinian, 554 AD. This is the first head, the first resurrection of the Holy Roman Empire.
#2 Frankish Kingdom - Charlemagne crowned by the Pope in 800 AD
#3 Otto the Great - Crowned by the Pope in 962 AD
#4 Habsburg Dybasty - Charles V crowned by Pope in 1520 AD
#5 Napolean's Kingdom - Crowned by Pope in 1805
#6 Italy reuntied under Garibaldi and continuing through Mussolini and Hitler 1870 to 1945.

Five have fallen, one is (and that is the historical vantage point of this prophecy) and one is yet to come. It is currently rising in Europe as I type.

Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

Refer to Rev 13, there is a political/military leader, the Beast and a religious leader, the False Prophet.

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

These last ten are ten kings that unite under the Beast for a very short time (one hour). Same as the ten toes in Dan 2.

Verse 14 shows the time frame of the ten kings, the return of Christ and

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Mistakenly referred to as Armageddon. Har Meggido is the staging area, the battle occurs in the valley of jehoshaphat.

I have never believed that the kings mentioned in Rev. 17 are a progression of fallen world empires. In fact I believe that this verse...

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Are kings that are falling in the apostasy currently taking place in the Arab World.

FIVE ARE FALLEN.
The word are is a third person plural present indicative.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1526&t=KJV

These may be some of the "are fallen" ones.
Saddam-----------------------Iraq (maybe)
Hosni Mubarak---------------Egypt
Moammar Gadhafi-----------Lybia
Ben Ali------------------------Tunsinia
Ali Abdullah Saleh------------Yemen

These five have already fallen. I think they could be the 5 mentioned in Rev. 17.10.

And one is...

Possibilities are....soon to fall Bashar Al-Assad of Syria, and soon to welcome the Mahdi, Ahmadinejad of Iran. (They are two scariest heads on the beast.)

I think the fall of Saddam, who believed he was the reincarnation of Nebuchadnezzar, is one of the heads on the seven headed, ten horned beast....the first one and the last one. (the eighth) That's another topic.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The 10 kings mentioned in verse 12 seem to either replace the fallen ones of verse 10. Some possibilities are Abdullah Gul of Turkey, Amadinnejad of Iran, Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan, Talabani of Iraq, Asif Ali Zardari of Pakistan, Abdullah of Jordan, Mohamed Morsi,> Egypt, Mohammed Yusuf Magariaf >Yemen, Moncef Marzouki >Tunisia. We'll know more when the ten nation Islamic Empire of the beast forms. And there may be more than one ten nation Empire. But that's another topic too.

But it seems everybody is waiting for a global dictator and a one world religion.

When the next 9-11 comes the only admonition the jihadist have for the world is, "brace yourself."

 

[10s3r]

The way I understand what you wrote here, I don't think that's correct. This is what I think:

"Babylon the great" is the Mystery
Babylon and the harlot. I think this is referring to the current city of
Jerusalem in the current state of Israel. The Bible seem to make that clear in
very many ways.

One small example among a myriad is: Rev
18:24 "And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints,
and of all that were slain upon the earth."

And Jesus says in Luke
13:33 "Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the
day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of
Jerusalem."

So The Book of Revelation states that all prophets are
killed in her (Babylon the great), and Jesus say that no prophet is killed
outside Jerusalem. Together with all the other biblical proofs, this really says
it all in my opinion!

It's true that the islamic world wants to get rid
of the zionist state of Israel and as I see it, that will be done by the beast
empire. Rev
17:16 "And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these
shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her
flesh, and burn her with fire."

The geographical area that the fourth kingdom of Daniel 2 is pointing to has traditionally been accepted as the area where the man of sin would emerge. That's why some people who interpret it different conclude that the man of sin would emerge from the Revived Roman Empire or the EU. I pretty much agree with you about "the great city" Jerusalem. However. I have a felling Mecca may also have something to do with it.
I'm unsure about a lot of this too.

 

[Skrumpelnubb]

I have never believed that the kings mentioned in Rev. 17 are a progression of fallen world empires. In fact I believe that this verse...

Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Are kings that are falling in the apostasy currently taking place in the Arab World.

FIVE ARE FALLEN.
The word are is a third person plural present indicative.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1526&t=KJV

These may be some of the "are fallen" ones.
Saddam-----------------------Iraq (maybe)
Hosni Mubarak---------------Egypt
Moammar Gadhafi-----------Lybia
Ben Ali------------------------Tunsinia
Ali Abdullah Saleh------------Yemen

These five have already fallen. I think they could be the 5 mentioned in Rev. 17.10.

And one is...

Possibilities are....soon to fall Bashar Al-Assad of Syria, and soon to welcome the Mahdi, Ahmadinejad of Iran. (They are two scariest heads on the beast.)

I think the fall of Saddam, who believed he was the reincarnation of Nebuchadnezzar, is one of the heads on the seven headed, ten horned beast....the first one and the last one. (the eighth) That's another topic.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

The 10 kings mentioned in verse 12 seem to either replace the fallen ones of verse 10. Some possibilities are Abdullah Gul of Turkey, Amadinnejad of Iran, Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan, Talabani of Iraq, Asif Ali Zardari of Pakistan, Abdullah of Jordan, Mohamed Morsi,> Egypt, Mohammed Yusuf Magariaf >Yemen, Moncef Marzouki >Tunisia. We'll know more when the ten nation Islamic Empire of the beast forms. And there may be more than one ten nation Empire. But that's another topic too.

But it seems everybody is waiting for a global dictator and a one world religion.

When the next 9-11 comes the only admonition the jihadist have for the world is, "brace yourself."

I don't think the fallen kings resembles fallen world empires either?

How come you interpret the five kings to be fallen, not at the time John got the revelation, but later in history? At the moment I think five already was fallen at the time John got that revelation?

I have made a flawed drawing that somewhat shows how I see it, I'm unsure about it but it's subject to changes. Look at it carefully if you like, it's a bit complex.

The kings in grey are the spirits of the painted kings that have the same numbers attached to them:

View attachment 3104

It seems to me that the beast incorporates the beast it overpower. That will explain why the rock crushes the whole statue in the end since all the previous kingdoms is present in the last kingdom. Also see Rev 13:2 compared to Dan 7:4-6. Could be so? What do you think?

 

[10s3r]

How come you interpret the five kings to be fallen, not at the time John got
the revelation, but later in history? At the moment I think five already
was fallen at the time John got that revelation?

Because of the word 'are.' It's a third person PRESENT indicative. They are all present on earth at the same time. I don't believe they are a 'progression of or succession of' fallen (past) world empires.

FIVE ARE FALLEN.
The word are is a third person plural present indicative.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1526&t=KJV

It seems to me that the beast incorporates the beast it overpower. That will
explain why the rock crushes the whole statue in the end since all the previous
kingdoms is present in the last kingdom. Also see Rev
13:2 compared to Dan
7:4-6. Could be so? What do you think?

Nearly everything about Daniel 2 is past except the toes mingled with iron and clay and of course the Stone that smote the image.

The book of Daniel was written toward the end of the Babylonian Empire. Chapter 7 was written about 35 years after the vision of the statue in chapter 2 and in the first year of Belshazzar who was the last king of Babylon.

Chapter 7 depicts four beast at the end of which Daniel has the vision of the ancient of days (like the stone cut out of a mountain in Daniel 2) who establishes an everlasting dominion on earth. Since these two chapters seem similar most interpreters seem to think chapter 7 depicts the same empires as those in Daniel 2 where the first three beast of chapter 2 and 7 are a historical and the fourth beast is a future beast.

I say chapter 7 isn't a historical repeat of chapter 2. Why would God find it necessary to repeat the message of a vision given to Daniel in chapter 2 in chapter 7?

How can the lion be Ancient Babylon when Nebuchadnezzar had already gone mad and been restored to the throne and Babylon had not yet fallen? Daniel would be a false prophet if he were to prophesy about something already in existence. AGAIN! Why would a repeat of the same message in two different visions be necessary? And why a repeat of a sequence of world history ending with the same end-time beast? The four beast of Daniel 7 are all end time empires. The correct interpretation of the word 'before' is important for us to see this.

Daniel 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.

The great sea usually refers to the Mediterranean sea. So lets say Daniel sees the four winds around the Mediterranean. These four beast came up out of the sea and similar to the beast of Rev 13 rising out of the sea. There're different from one another and different from the vision of the statue in chapter 2 where those kingdoms are parts of a man, and here they are four separate and distinct beast. The first beast of Daniel 7 is like a lion. According to most experts this is the nation of Ancient Babylon and the same as the head of gold in chapter 2. BUT!

The Babylonian Empire had already risen decades before, was still in power, and was on it's way out when Daniel 7 was written! Why would Daniel prophesy about a kingdom that was already in existence for decades and soon to end? Some atheist have actually caught onto this blunder and used it to debunk the bible by calling Daniel, which he would certainly be, a false prophet if he prophesied about something already in existence.

Most interpreters think that this vision of wings being plucked off and the heart of a man given to it refers to Nebuchadnezzar going mad and being restored 7 years later. That's unlikely since that happened about 20 years before Daniel had the vision! Daniel cannot prophesy about something that already happened The lion could certainly be todays Iraq. But it can't be ancient Babylon.

It seems the vision of chapter 7's four beast are figurative of 4 end time kingdoms competing for the dominance of the area around the Mediterranean. The word before in 7:7 say's that this beast "was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns."

The Hebrew word for "before" in this text is ‘qodam’ which means "in front of or in the presence of, not "historically before" as is commonly interpreted. This means the first three empires od Daniel 7 will be in the presence of (or stand before) the antichrist kingdom when it emerges. This indicates that they are all end-time kingdoms.

Notice how the word before is used here...
God's hand is "stretched out before Him" meaning in front of Him.
　

 

[Skrumpelnubb]

Because of the word 'are.' It's a third person PRESENT indicative. They are all present on earth at the same time. I don't believe they are a 'progression of or succession of' fallen (past) world empires. ..........
　

Ok I see what you mean. But I'm not convinced. Anyway I'm open, and you are open, to change our views as the knowledge grows. That's the most important of all. And we share the view of who one of the coming end time actors will be.;)

 

[Hope of glory]

Read my post on "how close do you think the end times are"
The fourth kingdom in Daniels statue is the Roman empire. The succession is basic history
Babylon
Medo-Persia
Greece
Rome (4th kingdom)
This vision is not future. The "latter days" spoken of in Dan.2:28 are not in our future.
The kingdom of God has been set up and is being established and increased through the Church.
Dan.2:44 "and in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed and the kingdom shall nog be left to other people but it shall break in prices and consume all these kingdoms and it shall stand forever"
This is not some "future kingdom". The Church is his "kingdom of priests" (ex.19:6, 1pet.2:9-10)
The kingdom is "within you" (Luke 17:20-21) and is released and demonstrated as we allow the Spirit to flow through us (rom.14:17).
Apostle Peter tells us that Jesus now sits on the " throne of David" which simply means to be "by the right hand of God exalted" ruling as King-priest (acts.2:30-33).
Therefor Isa. 9:7 must already be a present reality...."of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the "throne of David" to order and establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever..."
The establishment of the Kingdom of God in the earth is a present reality, Jesus right now rules from the throne of God (which the throne of David was but a type of). Through the Church, which is the fulness of Him, his kingdom will continue to increase in government and peace until all enemies have been placed under his feet (1cor.15:20-26, Heb.10:12-13).
The kingdom will culminate with the return of the Lord Jesus to receive the Kingdom and offer it up to His Father.

The image in dan.2 is not future, the 4th kingdom was Rome and the Kingdom of God had been set up for nearly 2000yrs. We must "repent and believe the gospel of the Kingdom"!
Blessings

 

[Elijah674]

Dan. 2 is followed by Dan. 7 with the ten toes called horns, and a little more truth. (horns, with the same facts!) And over in Rev. John gives the LAST scene to fill out history. Note that he see's it in hind/sight. Read the whole chapter!

--Elijah

 

[Eugene]

Dan. 2 is followed by Dan. 7 with the ten toes called horns, and a little more truth. (horns, with the same facts!) And over in Rev. John gives the LAST scene to fill out history. Note that he see's it in hind/sight. Read the whole chapter!

--Elijah

Dear Elijah, are you considering the "Times of the Gentiles (Luke 21:24)" in what you're putting forth here? Gentiles are still in power and the revival of Rome will again come to the forefront with the ten horns of Daniel Chapter Seven. Thanks.

 

[Elijah674]

Dan. 2 is followed by Dan. 7 with the ten toes called horns, and a little more truth. (horns, with the same facts!) And over in Rev. John gives the LAST scene to fill out history. Note that he see's it in hind/sight. Read the whole chapter!

--Elijah

Dear Elijah, are you considering the "Times of the Gentiles (Luke 21:24)" in what you're putting forth here? Gentiles are still in power and the revival of Rome will again come to the forefront with the ten horns of Daniel Chapter Seven. Thanks.

No I see rome already for the last act. (majority) Forced religion which mostly all agree on, just against the creation week & Gods 7th Day Sabbath. All are Christians huh? (+ all of her daughters) The only thing rome is waiting for is her daughters to use Caesar to do the forcing! The supreme court is all set up.

--Elijah

 

[Eugene]

All are Christians huh?

I'm sorry Elijah, but I have no idea what you mean by this. Can you explain? Thanks