Jim Parker
Member
Jesus did not come to be King of the Jews.
Jesus is God who has always ruled the entire creation and no Roman procurator could take that away from him.
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Daniel 7 - The Little Horn Revealed
- Thread starter ezrider
- Start date
Jesus did not come to be King of the Jews.
Jesus is God who has always ruled the entire creation and no Roman procurator could take that away from him.
ezrider
Member
So when you say Jesus did not come to be King of the Jews as your response, I hear you saying that Jesus was not the Son of David the people were looking for to rule and restore Israel. That he was not the rightful heir to the throne, and the linage given in the gospels is insignificant.
You are right, no Roman procurator could take that from him: Except it be given unto him to do so. I think Jesus said something to that extent.
Now while you might find it to be nonsense, I might recommend that you humble yourself and go listen to the great words that the little horn spake, for He was The promised Prophet of God. The Horn of David, the one we call Jesus.
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Jim Parker
Member
AH! Then you did not hear correctly.
Jesus is indeed the King on the throne of David.
But that is not why He was born, died and resurrected.
And, he is King of all creation (Mat 28:19) and always will be.
Not just in the Gospels; promised on the OT.
But that was not my point.
My point was that Pilate could not take that from Him even if Jesus was crucified because, you can't kill God and you can't tale anything away from God.
I hope that clears up my meaning.
ezrider
Member
Daniel 8:9-12
And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
In Daniel 7 we find the little horn, the Horn of David, with the eyes of a man and a mouth speaking great things. In Daniel 8 we find that this mouth speaking great things caused the TRUTH to be cast to the ground, where it both PRACTICED, and PROSPERED. Jesus said I am the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIGHT. Oh, and by Him, was the daily sacrifice taken away. Perhaps the crucifixion had something to do with that.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Jesus did not come to trample the truth to the ground.
He fulfilled the times and seasons, not destroyed them.
Everyone who believes in Christ has satisfied the times and seasons, not broken them and trampled them down.
17“Do not think that I came to abolish (that is, destroy) the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill." (Matthew 5:17 NASB)
ezrider
Member
Not sure why you find it necessary to try and change the context of what was said. You are the one inferring that it was trampled. You are the one who is trying to imply this as something destroyed. That is not what the prophet declared. The prophet declared that He, the Little Horn would cast the truth to the ground and cause it to practice and to prosper. Now exactly what does causing the truth to practice and prosper have to do with trampling down or destroying the law? You will have to explain that one.
Maybe you are having difficulty because you are only looking at the works of the Son of Man, Jesus, and the veil that is his flesh, but are unaware of the works of the Spirit of Christ. How the truth practiced and prospered, we can read about in the book of Acts.
John 14:14-17
If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 15:26-27
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
John 16:12-14
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Jethro Bodine
Member
I'm not.
Read it:
"9Out of one of them came forth a rather small horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Beautiful Land.10It grew up to the host of heaven and caused some of the host and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down. 11It even magnified itself to be equal with the Commander of the host; and it removed the regular sacrifice from Him, and the place of His sanctuary was thrown down. 12And on account of transgression the host will be given over to the horn along with the regular sacrifice; and it will fling truth to the ground and perform its will and prosper. 13Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to that particular one who was speaking, “How long will the vision about the regular sacrifice apply, while the transgression causes horror, so as to allow both the holy place and the host to be trampled?” 14He said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored.”" (Daniel 8:9-14 NASB)
Jesus did not come to "fling truth to the ground" (vs.12). He came to reveal the truth.
The passage is not saying the small horn will cause the truth to be performed and prosper. It says the small horn will fling truth to the ground, and it--the small horn--will perform and prosper.
Jim Parker
Member
Right! And even more, Jesus IS The Truth. John 14:6
ezrider
Member
Daniel 8:23-25
And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
Luke 4:14
And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about. And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
Luke 4:32
And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power.
Luke 4:16-22
And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth.
And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
Luke 4:14
And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about. And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
Luke 4:32
And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power.
Luke 4:16-22
And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth.
ezrider
Member
The scriptures declare: I come to do the will oh Lord, In the Volume of the book, it is written of me.
Psalm 40:7-10
Then said I, Lo, I come:
in the volume of the book it is written of me,
I delight to do thy will, O my God:
yea, thy law is within my heart.
I have preached righteousness in the great congregation:
lo, I have not refrained my lips,
O Lord, thou knowest.
I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart;
I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation:
I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.
Hebrews 10:7-10
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
The prophets did not declare the coming of some "Anti-Christ" person. They declared the coming of Christ and the work of the Spirit.
So if all you have ever looked for is the devil, how will you ever come to know Christ except you first look.
Even the disciples that walked with Jesus at the time didn't understand, until after he was crucified. When a stranger met certain of them on the road to Emmaus, and expounded unto them from Moses to the Prophets all things concerning himself.
Luke 24:25-27
Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Psalm 40:7-10
Then said I, Lo, I come:
in the volume of the book it is written of me,
I delight to do thy will, O my God:
yea, thy law is within my heart.
I have preached righteousness in the great congregation:
lo, I have not refrained my lips,
O Lord, thou knowest.
I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart;
I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation:
I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.
Hebrews 10:7-10
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
The prophets did not declare the coming of some "Anti-Christ" person. They declared the coming of Christ and the work of the Spirit.
So if all you have ever looked for is the devil, how will you ever come to know Christ except you first look.
Even the disciples that walked with Jesus at the time didn't understand, until after he was crucified. When a stranger met certain of them on the road to Emmaus, and expounded unto them from Moses to the Prophets all things concerning himself.
Luke 24:25-27
Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
Jim Parker
Member
As for the vision of the little horn being Jesus Christ:
Dan 8:23
“And in the latter time of their kingdom,
When the transgressors have reached their fullness,
A king shall arise,
Having fierce features,
Who understands sinister schemes. - Jesus is without guile
24
His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power; - Jesus is God, His power is his own power
He shall destroy fearfully,
And shall prosper and thrive;
He shall destroy the mighty, and also the holy people. - Jesus does not destroy holy people
25
“Through his cunning - Jesus does nothing through cunning
He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule; - Jesus does not cause deceit to prosper
And he shall exalt himself in his heart. - Jesus humbled Himself and was exalted by the Father
He shall destroy many in their prosperity.
He shall even rise against the Prince of princes; - Jesus IS the king of kings, Lord of Lords
But he shall be broken without human means - Jesus is NEVER broken
So you've got that ll wrong
ezrider
Member
Daniel 8:23-25
And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
Matthew 13:34-35
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Psalm 78:1-2
Give ear, O my people, to my law:
incline your ears to the words of my mouth.
I will open my mouth in a parable:
I will utter dark sayings of old:
..
And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
Matthew 13:34-35
All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Psalm 78:1-2
Give ear, O my people, to my law:
incline your ears to the words of my mouth.
I will open my mouth in a parable:
I will utter dark sayings of old:
..
ezrider
Member
I am only going to point out one thing to you, and that I have offered very, very little commentary to the verses I have posted in this thread. I have broken down the passages, highlighting the key words, and then proceeded to post only other scripture that showing them in context with Christ.
So if you are in disagreement, then you are not disagreeing with me: You are disagreeing with the scripture.
This is a bible study after all. Do you have scriptures to back up your claims? Or why not even respond to the scriptures I have provided? And No, not those ones, the other ones.
ezrider
Member
Daniel 8:23-25
And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
1 Corinthians 18-25
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
Isaiah 29:13-14
Wherefore the Lord said,
Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth,
and with their lips do honour me,
but have removed their heart far from me,
and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people,
even a marvellous work and a wonder:
for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish,
and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
.
And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
1 Corinthians 18-25
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
Isaiah 29:13-14
Wherefore the Lord said,
Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth,
and with their lips do honour me,
but have removed their heart far from me,
and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people,
even a marvellous work and a wonder:
for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish,
and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
.
Jim Parker
Member
No. I am in disagreement with the total mess you have made of scripture.
You have taken God's word and turned it into gobbledegook.
You have raided scripture for material with which to fabricate "a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." Macbeth, Act 5 Scene 5
ezrider
Member
Well, since you make no mistake about being in disagreement with the premise of this thread, then I can see no reason that you should continue to post in it. This is a Bible Study thread, and is open for discussion, but not open for debate. You have shown no interest in a discussion, so if you are strongly in disagreement with the premise of this thread, then you are more than welcome to start your own thread on the book of Daniel, where you can share with us your knowledge of Satan, or the anti-christ, of the Man of Sin, or what ever you want to call him. But I know that you know the rules of this forum, so there is no need that a moderator remind you.
Jim Parker
Member
The limitation of your vision is duly noted.
Then you should be open to opinions other than yours.
In your first post you posited that Jesus is the little horn of Daniel 7.
Dan 7:7 tells us of a beast with 10 horns.
Dan 7:8 tells us of the "little horn" which grows from the beast's head.
Dan 7:11 tells us that "...the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire."
The little horn was part of the beast. If the little horn is Jesus, as you propose, please exp[lain how Jesus was slain, his body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.
ezrider
Member
If you had been paying attention, or if you were truly interested in discussing it, then you would have realized I already responded to you on this question.