[_ Old Earth _] Dating the Flood

[jasoncran]

you are the product that freedom, if not , others like a few on this forum may even do the honors.

so keep that in mind.

 

[Barbarian]

I do wish to specify that:

MUSLIMS ARE NOT YOUNG EARTH CREATIONISTS

You may be saddened to learn about this, then:

Adnan Oktar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adnan_Oktar

Granted, he seems to be both highly unorthodox in his interpretation of Islam, and as careless with the law as Kent Hovind. But still...

 

[jasoncran]

i want add that when a christian deviates from the bible on what sin is or such like, he is a false prophet and never was a believer.

 

[coffeeelover]

No one ever addressed the OP.

 

[Pard]

I heard a very compelling argument for the Exodus. They say that Moses was adopted when Pepy II was Pharaoh. Pepy II is the ONLY Pharaoh who lived long enough to fit the 80 year requirement from the Bible. He was followed by a Pharaoh who ruled for a very short amount of time (he died pretty soon after being a Pharaoh, remember?). That Pharaoh's name was Merenre II, Pepy II's son, he only ruled for a single year. He is the very last Pharaoh of the Old Kingdom. After his death everything fell apart (though it began to fall apart when Pepy II died). They had famine and Merenre II's first born son died unexpectedly. Egypt really seemed to have been hit hard, like as if they had a terrible plague... or ten!

Now, what does any of this have to do with the Egyptian record and the flood? Easy! Chronology. When looking for the Exodus Pharaoh scholars traditionally look around 1500 or so BC. The Biblical time for Exodus was 2500 BC, 1000 years can make a HUGE difference!

This assertion not only fits perfectly with Exodus, but it also shows that historians may have the wrong time for Egypt OR for the Hebrews.

Let me do some more looking with these new dates and I will get to it.

 

[lordkalvan]

I heard a very compelling argument for the Exodus. They say that Moses was adopted when Pepy II was Pharaoh.

Who is 'They' who 'say' this?

Pepy II is the ONLY Pharaoh who lived long enough to fit the 80 year requirement from the Bible.

The actual length Pepy's reign (aka Neferkara) is uncertain and figures offered range from 64 to 94 years. The British Museum Dictionary of Ancient Egypt says he reigned from 2278-2184 BC, so if this is the Pharaoh who pursued the Israelites with his army, he was a very active nonagenarian.

He was followed by a Pharaoh who ruled for a very short amount of time (he died pretty soon after being a Pharaoh, remember?). That Pharaoh's name was Merenre II, Pepy II's son, he only ruled for a single year. He is the very last Pharaoh of the Old Kingdom.

After his death everything fell apart (though it began to fall apart when Pepy II died). They had famine and Merenre II's first born son died unexpectedly. Egypt really seemed to have been hit hard, like as if they had a terrible plague... or ten!

I think you are gilding the lily. Famine occurred a number of times in Egyptian history. Inferring several 'plagues' from one possible famine is not necessarily supported by the evidence. The First Intermediate Period is not well-documented, but parts of the country, particularly round Memphis, remained under the control of some of the dynasties of this period.

Now, what does any of this have to do with the Egyptian record and the flood? Easy! Chronology. When looking for the Exodus Pharaoh scholars traditionally look around 1500 or so BC. The Biblical time for Exodus was 2500 BC, 1000 years can make a HUGE difference!

Your big problem with this chronology, of course, is that there is no evidence of Israelites/Hebrews or whatever you want to call them in Egypt at this time and that what records we have (the Israel Stele) first mention Israel as a political entity in the 13th Century BC; at the same time, all the archaeological evidence points to their emergence in the Late Bronze Age, i.e. at the earliest in the 17th Century BC.

This assertion not only fits perfectly with Exodus, but it also shows that historians may have the wrong time for Egypt OR for the Hebrews.

This does not appear to be as perfect a fit as you imagine. If historians and archaeologists have got it so wrong, you will need to provide something more than speculation to demonstrate this to be the case.

Let me do some more looking with these new dates and I will get to it.

please do; I find this a very interesting subject and will be intrigued to see what you find out, especially if it shows my arguments to be poorly founded.

 

[Pard]

You'll have to give me a few days LK, but I sure will look into it. I just got Halo reach, so I will be AWOL for a little!

The proposal that I heard about Pepy II was from an atheist, actually, not that it ought to change anything. He was presenting this information in opposition tot he Biblical Minimalist theory, I am sure you are aware with their work. The guy who proposed Pepy II may have been the Pharaoh during the time is not a fan of their work, obviously.

Strictly unrelated to this guy's assertion, I do recall that they have found writing in a cave in Egypt that dates to the 2500BC range and it has been identified as early Hebrew, which would place the Jews in or near Egypt at the time of Pepy II.

I need to talk to my teacher; he can help me with further research I hope.

 

[lordkalvan]

You'll have to give me a few days LK, but I sure will look into it. I just got Halo reach, so I will be AWOL for a little!

No hurry. As I've said to others, there are more important things in life than discussion forums!

The proposal that I heard about Pepy II was from an atheist, actually, not that it ought to change anything. He was presenting this information in opposition tot he Biblical Minimalist theory, I am sure you are aware with their work. The guy who proposed Pepy II may have been the Pharaoh during the time is not a fan of their work, obviously.

I think this person is making a poor case at best, I'm afraid, for the reasons outlined before.

Strictly unrelated to this guy's assertion, I do recall that they have found writing in a cave in Egypt that dates to the 2500BC range and it has been identified as early Hebrew, which would place the Jews in or near Egypt at the time of Pepy II.

Given that the earliest known example of Hebrew writing known dates to pottery shard from around 1000 BC from a site overlooking the Elah Valley, I would teat this claim with a great deal of suspicion.

 

[coffeeelover]

Discussion of the flood tends to focus on geology and other kinds of scientific evidence. But what about history? Answers in Genesis calculates that the Flood took place in 2304 BC. Genesis 5 says that it must have been at least 1556 years after Adam was created. So if you think the world was created in about 4000 BC then the flood must have been after 2500 BC. At this time everyone in the world died except for 8 people. Everyone who lived subsequently must have been descended from those 8 people.

The problem is we have an unbroken record of the rulers of Egypt going back to before 3000 BC. There are small disagreements about precise dates, but the order is clear. You would imagine that if everyone in the world died there would be a noticeable break in this list, but there isn't. AIG's preferred date falls in the middle of the reign of Pepi I, whose scribes recorded war in Asia and the establishment of a trade route to Lebanon but not the complete destruction of everything and everyone.

It seems the only way around this is to say that the dates must be wrong and the first Pharaoh must have been a post Flood descendant of Noah. I don't know how long it would have taken for the population to grow to the point where Upper and Lower Egypt existed as countries which merged under the first Pharaoh, but I'd guess that the Egyptologists would have to be out by more than a millenium.

It's yet another method of dating things a literal reading of Genesis has to explain away.

It appears there is no explanation to your question. Not to mention the fact that if the tower of Babel came after the flood and everyone spoke the same language before that how is it that people in China and Egypt spoke two different languages. I just don't understand why some people feel that one has to a biblical literalist to be a Christian.

 

[Pard]

Who is 'They' who 'say' this?

A new approach to the chronology of biblical history from Abraham to Samuel (Open Library)

BC Volume 2 (1996)
(Second Part)

The actual length Pepy's reign (aka Neferkara) is uncertain and figures offered range from 64 to 94 years. The British Museum Dictionary of Ancient Egypt says he reigned from 2278-2184 BC, so if this is the Pharaoh who pursued the Israelites with his army, he was a very active nonagenarian.

But isn't Peppy II easier than Neferkara?

If he is said to have reigned for 94 years that most definitely fits the minimum requirement of 80 years. And no, he died, if you recall (from the Bible). His son would have been the one to chase the Israeli army and then died (which he did).

I think you are gilding the lily. Famine occurred a number of times in Egyptian history. Inferring several 'plagues' from one possible famine is not necessarily supported by the evidence. The First Intermediate Period is not well-documented, but parts of the country, particularly round Memphis, remained under the control of some of the dynasties of this period.

Not every famine led to the fall of the Egyptian kingdom, though this one did...

Your big problem with this chronology, of course, is that there is no evidence of Israelites/Hebrews or whatever you want to call them in Egypt at this time and that what records we have (the Israel Stele) first mention Israel as a political entity in the 13th Century BC; at the same time, all the archaeological evidence points to their emergence in the Late Bronze Age, i.e. at the earliest in the 17th Century BC.

This is true, I cannot currently supply support for this obvious point. I must rest assured in the scripture and pray that God will reveal more, as He has done in the past.

I'm not good at this, so I doubt I will be very good at conveying my point. I prefer the theological stuff, you know, but I am more than happy to discuss this with you! Sorry for the wait, I have been busy with school work.

This is the site I got the initial idea from: http://www.biblicalchronologist.org/answers/exodus_egypt.php

I cannot find the article the atheist wrote. Sometimes these websites seem to walk away on me!

 

[lordkalvan]

A new approach to the chronology of biblical history from Abraham to Samuel (Open Library)

BC Volume 2 (1996)
(Second Part)

But isn't Peppy II easier than Neferkara?

If he is said to have reigned for 94 years that most definitely fits the minimum requirement of 80 years. And no, he died, if you recall (from the Bible). His son would have been the one to chase the Israeli army and then died (which he did).

Okay, my bad. Thanks for the links, btw.

Not every famine led to the fall of the Egyptian kingdom, though this one did...

But which was the chicken and which was the egg?

I think that the most serious problem with identifying Pepy II as the relevant pharaoh is the lack of archaeological evidence to support it on the one hand, and the archaeological evidence that stands against it on the other. Also, if you accept a typical YEC chronology, Pepy II at around 2200 BC - i.e. 4,200 years ago - is uncomfortably close to dates generally touted for the biblical flood (AiG argues for around 2300 BC, for example).

This is true, I cannot currently supply support for this obvious point. I must rest assured in the scripture and pray that God will reveal more, as He has done in the past.

I think you should rely more on the work of archaeologists in this instance ;-).

I'm not good at this, so I doubt I will be very good at conveying my point. I prefer the theological stuff, you know, but I am more than happy to discuss this with you! Sorry for the wait, I have been busy with school work.

This is the site I got the initial idea from: Is there evidence of the Exodus from Egypt?

That's okay; as I said in my last post, there are more important things in life than discussion boards.

I cannot find the article the atheist wrote. Sometimes these websites seem to walk away on me!

No problem, I often have the same trouble. Perhaps it will turn up later.