Deathbed Visions

[jasonc]

Kathi, maybe he thinks that if someone died on a trail high in the Himalayas, there is a special burial crew that comes along and digs a grave for him.

no I don't. again, where were the righteous dead prior to the cross? sheol!

If a body is cremated then where does their soul go?

so a person has bowel movements in heaven? if heaven has sewer system then where does the sewage go? I believe that the soul has clothes. the flesh is part of that. but not all of that. if you want to believe that in heaven you have bowels , a desire to eat and must to survive then be my guest. if so then there must be heat and cold or warmth in heaven. after all biological activities require that. this is why I say what I say about a metaphor of limited description. a fire must have what to burn? o2. is there 02 in gehenna?

 

[Kathi]

no I don't. again, where were the righteous dead prior to the cross? sheol!

so a person has bowel movements in heaven? if heaven has sewer system then where does the sewage go? I believe that the soul has clothes. the flesh is part of that. but not all of that. if you want to believe that in heaven you have bowels , a desire to eat and must to survive then be my guest. if so then there must be heat and cold or warmth in heaven. after all biological activities require that. this is why I say what I say about a metaphor of limited description. a fire must have what to burn? o2. is there 02 in gehenna?

The righteous dead were in paradise before Jesus died on the Cross.Read the parable of the Rich Man.Sheol was in the other side and those were the unsaved but the people in Sheol could see the people in Paradise.They were separated.
Bowel movements and sewer systems....Hu? I rest my case.

 

[Kathi]

Luke 16:19-31
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell[a] from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’

27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’

 

[Kathi]

Abrahams bosom and Paradise are the same place.

 

[Willie T]

It IS a bit of a stretch to claim too much about knowing what the afterlife will be like from a parable of Jesus' that was meant to show the Jews that it was not going to be their bloodline that saved them,

 

[jasonc]

The righteous dead were in paradise before Jesus died on the Cross.Read the parable of the Rich Man.Sheol was in the other side and those were the unsaved but the people in Sheol could see the people in Paradise.They were separated.
Bowel movements and sewer systems....Hu? I rest my case.

actually no, typically sheol has both. the concept of both hades and sheol in respective cultures has the section called paradise. in hades that is called elosian fields. its not above the sky. in Hebrew thought, its either below the ground or paradise which isn't heaven as well think it. but gan eden.
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Sheol
https://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/hell-sheol-hades-paradise-and-the-grave/
http://www.chabad.org/library/moshi...-the-Resurrection-Era-the-Ultimate-Reward.htm
ramban sounds like the modern day Christian with the idea of a holding area. which is what I believe.

I mention that thing about sewer because YOU believe that literally we will eat in heaven. something has to die in heaven to be eaten unless god just poofs the food. possible but I don't take that literally
read up the second link mentions sheol having Samuel the prophet there. I personally believe that gan eden was for the righteous goy/Hebrew but its not that clear. most say sheol has both levels.

 

[jasonc]

Abrahams bosom and Paradise are the same place.

Abraham's bosom isn't a place. that is a saying. that means that Abraham would love that person and lazarus would recline in his lap, and be comforted.

gan eden is described a bit differently then that. it has God with the people. sheol doesn't say that.not that I have heard of.

 

[jasonc]

It IS a bit of a stretch to claim too much about knowing what the afterlife will be like from a parable of Jesus' that was meant to show the Jews that it was not going to be their bloodline that saved them,

actually that was a warning to them using their idea of sheol to show how evil they were.

 

[jasonc]

I recant that position on the sea and the death. but there are some out there views on that chapter. adam Clarke wasn't. john gill? hell is as death. yet he preached at spurgeon's church.

http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/geb/view.cgi?bk=65&ch=20

 

[Edward]

Sure is a lot of disagreement and confusion in this thread, lol. Why do people think that if their body dies that they are dead? Death means nothing to God. If the body dies, are they dead? To us maybe, but are they dead to God? God is not the God of the dead but of the living. Whether their body is dead or not.

I think maybe Gods definition of dead is different than many peoples. Life (consciousness) is not in the body. The body is animated by our presence, but the body is really not needed for life. I know that many will disagree with this, but let me ask you this, if you believe that God can raise people from the dead, then what's so hard to believe that God could make them alive without the body? Nothing is too great for God to be able to do.

 

[jasonc]

Sure is a lot of disagreement and confusion in this thread, lol. Why do people think that if their body dies that they are dead? Death means nothing to God. If the body dies, are they dead? To us maybe, but are they dead to God? God is not the God of the dead but of the living. Whether their body is dead or not.

I think maybe Gods definition of dead is different than many peoples. Life (consciousness) is not in the body. The body is animated by our presence, but the body is really not needed for life. I know that many will disagree with this, but let me ask you this, if you believe that God can raise people from the dead, then what's so hard to believe that God could make them alive without the body? Nothing is too great for God to be able to do.

ok ,most say that the body dies but the soul doesn't, I believe that. the resurrection for a judgement is to place the soul where it should go forever formally. ie gehenna or heaven. bodies fit for both places. that doesn't include the earth being a permanent home for the righteous. I believe that heaven Is a holding place and the righteous are going to live on the earth. matthew 5:5

 

[Willie T]

I recant that position on the sea and the death. but there are some out there views on that chapter. adam Clarke wasn't. john gill? hell is as death. yet he preached at spurgeon's church.

http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/geb/view.cgi?bk=65&ch=20

How did John Gill preach at Spurgeon's church?
Didn't John Gill die in 1771?
And, I believe, Spurgeon wasn't even born till 1834.

Of course I could be wrong.

 

[jasonc]

How did John Gill preach at Spurgeon's church?
Didn't John Gill die in 1771?
And, I believe, Spurgeon wasn't even born till 1834.

Of course I could be wrong.

no it was before spurgeon was at that church.

 

[Kathi]

Abraham's bosom isn't a place. that is a saying. that means that Abraham would love that person and lazarus would recline in his lap, and be comforted.

gan eden is described a bit differently then that. it has God with the people. sheol doesn't say that.not that I have heard of.

The Bible says it was a place.So is the Bible lieing?

 

[jasonc]

The Bible says it was a place.So is the Bible lieing?

there is no such place in the bible. where does the tanach mention that? why would jesus say something to the Pharisees if they didn't know what it was? he wouldn't so either it was type of idiom, or a teaching.

chabad.org has NOTHING on Abraham's bosom but a ton on paradise. I posted a link on them.

 

[Kathi]

Go look at post #123.

 

[jasonc]

then why did jesus say to the thief today you will be with in in paradise? instead he should have used Abraham's bosom. does jesus then speak in terms that the jews wouldn't know? so how would anyone know what Abrahams bosom is where would one go to find it? the mishna? that doesn't have it. neither does the Talmud thus my case.

and here that is what im saying.
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/bnb/view.cgi?bk=41&ch=16

Abraham‘s bosom - This is a phrase taken from the practice of reclining at meals, where the head of one lay on the bosom of another, and the phrase, therefore, denotes intimacy and friendship. See the notes at Matthew 23:6. Also John 13:23; John 21:20. The Jews had no doubt that Abraham was in paradise. To say that Lazarus was in his bosom was, therefore, the same as to say that he was admitted to heaven and made happy there. The Jews, moreover, boasted very much of being the friends of Abraham and of being his descendants, Matthew 3:9. To be his friend was, in their view, the highest honor and happiness. Our Saviour, therefore, showed them that this poor and afflicted man might be raised to the highest happiness, while the rich, who prided themselves on their being descended from Abraham, might be cast away and lost forever.

im not saying that paradise doesn't exist just that its never called Abraham bosom!!!!!!!!!!!

read all of what he says. he says that lazarus wasn't a real person and its a parable. that is what parables are for. was david literally a man whom took a lamb from another? no was there such a man in the kingdom? NO, that was a parable to show david how evil he was by Nathan.

 

[KevinK]

I agree also that "Abraham's Bosom" is a metaphor for Paradise. The passage you quoted pretty much says that, then it seems like you said the opposite??

As far as eating in Heaven, I don't know how the biology works, but isn't Heaven being prepared right now for the Christ's Wedding Feast?

 

[jasonc]

I agree also that "Abraham's Bosom" is a metaphor for Paradise. The passage you quoted pretty much says that, then it seems like you said the opposite??

As far as eating in Heaven, I don't know how the biology works, but isn't Heaven being prepared right now for the Christ's Wedding Feast?

nope, just that the words Abraham bosom isn't a name for what is called gan eden or the place for the righteous in sheol. depending where one gets the views on sheol it does or doesn't have a place for the righteous. I believe historically its said that it but some disagree and say that the sheol had two levels. that is what an elder said in my church. he was a teacher of theology at liberty. I see that sheol has more then one level. again it depends on the rabbi and the source you get. sheol by the way of jewry is a purgatory. it has a lowest of the low where none would rise up.luke 16 alludes to some of that.

 

[Kathi]

then why did jesus say to the thief today you will be with in in paradise? instead he should have used Abraham's bosom. does jesus then speak in terms that the jews wouldn't know? so how would anyone know what Abrahams bosom is where would one go to find it? the mishna? that doesn't have it. neither does the Talmud thus my case.

and here that is what im saying.
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/bnb/view.cgi?bk=41&ch=16


im not saying that paradise doesn't exist just that its never called Abraham bosom!!!!!!!!!!!

read all of what he says. he says that lazarus wasn't a real person and its a parable. that is what parables are for. was david literally a man whom took a lamb from another? no was there such a man in the kingdom? NO, that was a parable to show david how evil he was by Nathan.

Because

then why did jesus say to the thief today you will be with in in paradise? instead he should have used Abraham's bosom. does jesus then speak in terms that the jews wouldn't know? so how would anyone know what Abrahams bosom is where would one go to find it? the mishna? that doesn't have it. neither does the Talmud thus my case.

and here that is what im saying.
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/bnb/view.cgi?bk=41&ch=16


im not saying that paradise doesn't exist just that its never called Abraham bosom!!!!!!!!!!!

read all of what he says. he says that lazarus wasn't a real person and its a parable. that is what parables are for. was david literally a man whom took a lamb from another? no was there such a man in the kingdom? NO, that was a parable to show david how evil he was by Nathan.

The word Paradise is usually used as another word for heaven Revelation 2:7.Jesus knew that His death was imminent and that He would soon be in heaven.So Jesus used "Paradise" as a synonym for heaven.In 2 Corinthians 12:4 Paul used the word Paradise.