Debating with atheists? Should we?

[Tri Unity]

Atheism isn't a faith, it is a lack of faith in a deity.

Atheism is a worldview which requires faith.

During the French Revolution the then atheists correctly identified atheism as a religion: The Cult of the Supreme Being.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_the_Supreme_Being

You kid yourself that you do not belong to a religion and do not have faith. You have more faith than many Christians, and you are more religous than many I have met. You just belong to a different religion.

 

[Danus]

Should we debate with atheists? Should we try to intellectually make them broaden there horizion? Or should we as it says somewhere in the bible (just somewhere) leave them if they cant be convinced? Is it a holy and biblical thing to do?

We should show them the love of Christ. That's it. let them persecute you with words if they want. You can't argue anyone into the kingdom, but they need to know who we are and what we believe.

Too often Christians let their own emotions get the better of them. I've done it. Just let it go. If we have faith then we don't need that validated by someone else.

 

[Atothetheist]

Atheism is a worldview which requires faith.

During the French Revolution the then atheists correctly identified atheism as a religion: The Cult of the Supreme Being.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_the_Supreme_Being

You kid yourself that you do not belong to a religion and do not have faith. You have more faith than many Christians, and you are more religous than many I have met. You just belong to a different religion.

I dont follow any creeds, or laws that I deem immoral, There are no tennets and creeds in atheism

 

[TRussert]

I don't have a faith.

I recognize that they have their reasons for believing, but I do ask them for evidence.

It was my own choice to have faith, nothing was expected of me.

Hello again Atothetheist,

Faith IS the evidence. You say it was your own choice to have faith. If you really had faith, then what other evidence do you need? Still not understanding what you are saying.

Will the sun come up tomorrow morning? Will you be starting a brand new day when it does? How can you be so sure? Right now it's night, so why do you "know" tomorrow will come? That's faith.
Do you have to think about every breath you take? Do you consciously direct all the muscles in your body to behave in just the right way to allow you to breath? Of course not. You breath without hardly ever giving it a thought. That's faith.

Do we need proof that God exists? No. We know He exists by faith. Hebrews 11:1 NKJV "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen". Our convictions through faith are the substance of what we hope for, Truth of God's word is the evidence of what we can't see; Heaven, Eternal Life, our spiritual identity, the temporary illusion of this life and world.

Hebrews 11:3 NKJV "By faith we understand the the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible"

The things you see are not made of things that are visible, yet you see them. That's faith, and the very same faith that let's you know God is real, and visible in all His creations. That includes you.

Your choice is an easy one. You can choose not to believe, and receive the reward for that which mirrors disbelief; eternal life without any knowledge of God for certainly there is no need to know of Him since you don't believe in Him in the first place, or you can choose to believe and experience what mirrors that; eternal life in the presence of God.

I can assure of this Atothetheist, there is not a believer here who will not pray that the Holy Spirit brings you the conviction of Jesus Christ and the truth of His word. God wishes no one will perish and we can do no less either.

Cheers
(PS-Do you have a shorter nickname we can use? Would AT be OK? ))

Cheers

 

[Atothetheist]

Hello again Atothetheist,

Faith IS the evidence. You say it was your own choice to have faith. If you really had faith, then what other evidence do you need? Still not understanding what you are saying.

Will the sun come up tomorrow morning? Will you be starting a brand new day when it does? How can you be so sure? Right now it's night, so why do you "know" tomorrow will come? That's faith.
Do you have to think about every breath you take? Do you consciously direct all the muscles in your body to behave in just the right way to allow you to breath? Of course not. You breath without hardly ever giving it a thought. That's faith.

Do we need proof that God exists? No. We know He exists by faith. Hebrews 11:1 NKJV "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen". Our convictions through faith are the substance of what we hope for, Truth of God's word is the evidence of what we can't see; Heaven, Eternal Life, our spiritual identity, the temporary illusion of this life and world.

Hebrews 11:3 NKJV "By faith we understand the the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible"

The things you see are not made of things that are visible, yet you see them. That's faith, and the very same faith that let's you know God is real, and visible in all His creations. That includes you.

Your choice is an easy one. You can choose not to believe, and receive the reward for that which mirrors disbelief; eternal life without any knowledge of God for certainly there is no need to know of Him since you don't believe in Him in the first place, or you can choose to believe and experience what mirrors that; eternal life in the presence of God.

I can assure of this Atothetheist, there is not a believer here who will not pray that the Holy Spirit brings you the conviction of Jesus Christ and the truth of His word. God wishes no one will perish and we can do no less either.

Cheers
(PS-Do you have a shorter nickname we can use? Would AT be OK? ))

Cheers

Faith is not evidence.

If I have unconditional faith in wizards, is that evidence of wizards?

Call me A2, its what my friends call me.

I do not choose to believe anymore. I need to be convinced of its truth. I think choosing your beliefs is not something you should do.

The reason why people think they know ( I don't claim I know) that tomorrow will apear is because nothing has happened before.

There is nothing to indicate that it won't happen, so we can assume it will continue on like normal.

 

[Tri Unity]

I dont follow any creeds, or laws that I deem immoral, There are no tennets and creeds in atheism

Of course you follow creeds and a value system and a philosophy. Everyone does. Everyone "believes" in something; whether you agree or disagree. Denying a belief is still a belief; it is just the opposite of what is believed. It is still a belief. Your denial of your beliefs does not negate your beliefs; you "believe" in atheism. On what grounds? Were you there at the beginning? No, you need faith to believe in atheism, elovution or the big bang. You cannot scientifically "prove" that God does not exist, you simply believe this and have faith in this. No one has scientifically proven the big bang or evolution. You accept this hypothesis based on your faith.

 

[Atothetheist]

Of course you follow creeds and a value system and a philosophy. Everyone does. Everyone "believes" in something; whether you agree or disagree. Denying a belief is still a belief; it is just the opposite of what is believed. It is still a belief. Your denial of your beliefs does not negate your beliefs; you "believe" in atheism. On what grounds? Were you there at the beginning? No, you need faith to believe in atheism, elovution or the big bang. You cannot scientifically "prove" that God does not exist, you simply believe this and have faith in this. No one has scientifically proven the big bang or evolution. You accept this hypothesis based on your faith.

(facepalm).... Tell me, if the detective wasn't there when the crime was committed, how does he manage to catch the criminal?

He uses evidence that was left at the scene, fingerprints, blood, etc.

Scientists do the same thing, they search for evidence, and such.

By your logic, we can't really prove that a criminal did a crime if there were no witnesses. We shouldn't convict him because we would be relying on faith.... What a load of nonsense.

We draw conclusions from EVIDENCE. And science has gathered COMPELLING EVIDENCE if you looked for it in Scientific journals.

Faith is a belief without evidence, I have evidence for Big Bang and Evolution.



It was funny how I think you think faith and belief have the same meaning, but that is wrong.

Believe whatever you want man, just don't ridecule or make conclusions on something you don't understand.

Oh, and by the way. Please, next time, don't take vaccines. They are products of the theory of evolution.:waving

Bye bye.

 

[Tri Unity]

We draw conclusions from EVIDENCE. And science has gathered COMPELLING EVIDENCE if you looked for it in Scientific journals.

Comparing Newton's apple with the big bang is ridiculous.

Faith is a belief without evidence, I have evidence for Big Bang and Evolution.

No you don't. You have a presented hypothesis that desperately accepts any "evidence" it can to support it; while it covers up all that contradicts. Try using this technique to catch a criminal Kojak. You would be as compelling as a psychic.

Believe whatever you want man, just don't ridecule or make conclusions on something you don't understand.

It is you who have accepted a runaway theory that is as scientific as Pandora's Box. Don't be so sensitive; your a big Atom.

Oh, and by the way. Please, next time, don't take vaccines. They are products of the theory of evolution.

Like all ideas on evolution and atheism; it is based on ignorance.

"Even the truth may indulge in ridicule, because it is jubilant; it may play with its enemies, because it is fearless."
Tertullian, Against the Valentinians, chapter 6

 

[Grazer]

I think we should engage with atheists to understand why they hold the views they do. I've learned a lot from debating with atheists (some I've won, some I've lost) they've helped me look at the evidence for and against. Sometimes its frustrating but other times its rewarding.

As for "faith being belief without evidence", this is the definition of blind faith. But faith in itself is slightly incomplete. What do you have faith in? When Christians say we have faith in Christ, we are making 2 statements; that he is real and trustworthy. It's the same as saying I have faith in my fiance and the more I learn about her, the more evidence I have she is trustworthy, the more my faith in her increases and that when she says she loves me she means it (and my love for her increases). This can work in the opposite direction. People believed banks were trustworthy then evidence came to light that they weren't and we lost faith in them. So faith in this context is linked to evidence. We get the word faith from the Latin fides. I've put the definitions below (taken from OED)

Faith:

confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.

Fides:

noun [mass noun] a person’s honesty and sincerity of intention: he went to great lengths to establish his liberal bona fides

[treated as plural] informal documentary evidence showing that a person is what they claim to be; credentials: he set about checking Loretta’s bona fides

Trust is a major component. Do you trust people without evidence? Believing in a person is very different to believing a theory but both are evidence based. Strictly speaking, under this definition and context atheism isn't a faith but in the debate between Lennox and Singer, Singer said "atheism isn't a faith" to which Lennox responded "really? I was under the impression you believed it"

Alister McGrath wrote a very good response to Richard Dawkins which included addressing his definition of faith - http://www.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk/cis/mcgrath/lecture.html

Sent from mobile

 

[Atothetheist]

Comparing Newton's apple with the big bang is ridiculous.



No you don't. You have a presented hypothesis that desperately accepts any "evidence" it can to support it; while it covers up all that contradicts. Try using this technique to catch a criminal Kojak. You would be as compelling as a psychic.



It is you who have accepted a runaway theory that is as scientific as Pandora's Box. Don't be so sensitive; your a big Atom.



Like all ideas on evolution and atheism; it is based on ignorance.

"Even the truth may indulge in ridicule, because it is jubilant; it may play with its enemies, because it is fearless."
Tertullian, Against the Valentinians, chapter 6

:eeeekkk:eeeekkk:eeeekkk

Wow. I never even compared Newton's apple to the Big Bang......
:o:o:o:o:o

Fine, don't trust science. Please turn off you computer, give up your car, your printer, your house. Please, by all means.

I bet you would find evidence if you just looked in the right places.

Either way, believe what you want... I am out, considering that repeatedly I have been made fun of. Thanks.

 

[Atothetheist]

I think we should engage with atheists to understand why they hold the views they do. I've learned a lot from debating with atheists (some I've won, some I've lost) they've helped me look at the evidence for and against. Sometimes its frustrating but other times its rewarding.

As for "faith being belief without evidence", this is the definition of blind faith. But faith in itself is slightly incomplete. What do you have faith in? When Christians say we have faith in Christ, we are making 2 statements; that he is real and trustworthy. It's the same as saying I have faith in my fiance and the more I learn about her, the more evidence I have she is trustworthy, the more my faith in her increases and that when she says she loves me she means it (and my love for her increases). This can work in the opposite direction. People believed banks were trustworthy then evidence came to light that they weren't and we lost faith in them. So faith in this context is linked to evidence. We get the word faith from the Latin fides. I've put the definitions below (taken from OED)

Faith:

confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.

Fides:

noun [mass noun] a person’s honesty and sincerity of intention: he went to great lengths to establish his liberal bona fides

[treated as plural] informal documentary evidence showing that a person is what they claim to be; credentials: he set about checking Loretta’s bona fides

Trust is a major component. Do you trust people without evidence? Believing in a person is very different to believing a theory but both are evidence based. Strictly speaking, under this definition and context atheism isn't a faith but in the debate between Lennox and Singer, Singer said "atheism isn't a faith" to which Lennox responded "really? I was under the impression you believed it"

Alister McGrath wrote a very good response to Richard Dawkins which included addressing his definition of faith - http://www.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk/cis/mcgrath/lecture.html

Sent from mobile

Belief is not faith. Faith, is a belief without evidence.


faith   [feyth] Show IPA
noun
1.
confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2.
belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3.
belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4.
belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5.
a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6.
the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7.
the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8.
Christian Theology . the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

There is a difference between normal belief, and a faith ( in the religious meaning.)

 

[Tri Unity]

Wow. I never even compared Newton's apple to the Big Bang...... :o:o:o:o:o

You did. You compared Newtonian physics with quantum physics - the theories of what we can measure (Newtonian) as opposed to what can be imagined (quantum). You seemed to be having sport with others here. You shouldn't throw stones from glass houses.

 

[Atothetheist]

You did. You compared Newtonian physics with quantum physics - the theories of what we can measure (Newtonian) as opposed to what can be imagined (quantum). You seemed to be having sport with others here. You shouldn't throw stones from glass houses.

No, I didn't, show me where I did.

Oh, and by the way: the Big Bang Theory is something WE CAN GATHER EVIDENCE FOR.

evidence for the Big Bang Theory.

I am done. Clearly, nothing with will get you to change your mind.

 

[Tri Unity]

(facepalm).... Tell me, if the detective wasn't there when the crime was committed, how does he manage to catch the criminal? He uses evidence that was left at the scene, fingerprints, blood, etc. Scientists do the same thing, they search for evidence, and such.

This is Newtonian science. It is science that can be measured from repeating an experiment and measuring the result; the result is consistent, therefore the hypothesis is correct.

Faith is a belief without evidence, I have evidence for Big Bang and Evolution.

No, the big bang cannot be duplicated in a laboratory or in nature; it cannot be measured. It is based on theoretical science. Atheism and evolution requires faith in theoretical science. It cannot be proven, unlike fingerprints, blood, etc. If radiometric dates were to give us totally different results to each other, depending on which element was analysed, that "evidence" would not be allowable to "catch a thief". If the witnesses do not agree or conflict with each other the case gets thrown out. Atheism and evolution have already been 'thrown out' because of conflicting evidence. It seems you just havn't got the memo yet; the beurocrats need to milk the ignorant for as long as possible.

 

[Atothetheist]

This is Newtonian science. It is science that can be measured from repeating an experiment and measuring the result; the result is consistent, therefore the hypothesis is correct.



No, the big bang cannot be duplicated in a laboratory or in nature; it cannot be measured. It is based on theoretical science. Atheism and evolution requires faith in theoretical science. It cannot be proven, unlike DNA. If radiometric dates were to give us totally different result to each other, depending on which element was analysed, that "evidence" would not be allowable to "catch a thief". If the witnesses do not agree or conflict with each other the case gets thrown out. Atheism and evolution have already been 'thrown out' because of conflicting evidence. It seems you just havn't got the memo yet; the beurocrats need to milk the ignorant for as long as possible.

.... The BOOMERanG... Or the Red shifts and other such TESTABLE evidence for the Big Bang.

If you seriously are for real though, I seriously want to know why you won't look at the evidence for the Big Bang and Evolution.

I also want to know why you advocate creation, and such... Maybe we should make another thread?

 

[evenifigoalone]

Hey guys, just a reminder:
2.4: No Trolling:

You will not post anything that disrupts the peace and harmony of this forum. Don't make inflammatory remarks just to get a response. This will also include posts that put down Christianity in general or any posts considered as blasphemy by staff (this is a CHRISTIAN FORUMS site).


2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

It is a violation to misquote or misrepresent another member.

 

[Atothetheist]

Hey guys, just a reminder:
2.4: No Trolling:

You will not post anything that disrupts the peace and harmony of this forum. Don't make inflammatory remarks just to get a response. This will also include posts that put down Christianity in general or any posts considered as blasphemy by staff (this is a CHRISTIAN FORUMS site).


2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

It is a violation to misquote or misrepresent another member.

When did I misquote?

 

[Grazer]

Belief is not faith. Faith, is a belief without evidence.


faith   [feyth] Show IPA
noun
1.
confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2.
belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3.
belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4.
belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5.
a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6.
the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7.
the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8.
Christian Theology . the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

There is a difference between normal belief, and a faith ( in the religious meaning.)

But faith is not solely a religious word. The example you've highlighted in bold shows faith being present in science. If you do not have faith in the scientific process and believe that the world can be made sense of (belief is an intrinsic part of faith) you will not be a scientist for 5 minutes. As Paul Davis puts it:

“Even the most atheistic scientist accepts as an act of faith that the universe is not absurd, that there is a rational basis to physical existence manifested as a lawlike order in nature that is at least in part comprehensible to us. So science can proceed only if the scientist adopts an essentially theological worldview.”

This faith is justified by the evidence. But belief is part of faith as demonstrated in the above definitions. As I've shown, faith in God is faith in a person. This is what Christians mean by faith in God. Again, the definitions above show different contexts including a religious one but note it does not say that religious faith is belief without evidence. Indeed the example given for the "belief without evidence" is a science one that the hypothesis would be proven to be true. The example for the religious one t mentions trust and as I asked before, do you trust someone on the basis of no evidence?

If you look at the definitions for fides from which the word faith is derived you see evidence explicitly mentioned. So the question really is what is the evidence that makes faith in God justified in the same manner of what makes my faith in my fiance justified? Or the faith in my friends justified?

We both have beliefs; you believe there isn't a God, I believe there is.

 

[Ethereal Lagoon]

Hello, I'm new...

Well, I personally believe it just depends on the individual. If they are open minded, and willing to accept others views, or at least take a step outside of their comfort zone and look at it from a different perspective; then sure, all is not lost and you both might've gained an enlightening experience. But for the iconoclasts, that simply will not listen to reason, it's foolish to waste your time on them. I've come to realize that those individuals simply have to reach an understanding with inside themselves and open their hearts, and let go of that immanent darkness that enshrouds it. I mean, I believe that God comes to us, all of us at one point, but I think that some of us have to come to a point to accept this salvation... But then again, there are just some individuals who will live in folly for the rest of their lives, no matter what messages of God might've came their way. For those in that particular state, and for those who remain there, I kind of like to relate to this scripture: Proverbs 29:9- If a wise man has an argument with a fool, the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quite. I'm not trying to say I'm perfect or anything, but when it comes to my faith I try to keep a cool head...and my endeavors to, probably won't be over for a long time... ._.

 

[Nick]

When did I misquote?

Questdriven underlined relevant points.

I suggest we get this back on topic. Science-related posts belong in the Science forum