Defend Marriage Between a Man and a Woman!

[Stan53]

I identify myself as both a Christian and a US citizen. As a Christian, I am under the authority of God first, and government second. Scripture tells us to be submissive to government as long as it doesn't violate our / God's morality.

Really? Maybe you can quote that verse for us. We obviously ALWAYS have to put God first in our lives, that is NOT the issue here.

As a US citizen, I am obligated to vote my conscience. It is not simply a right.

Really? Then I guess almost 43% of eligible voters broke that law in 2008 in your country. Or do you mean they are morally obligated to vote?

The way you tell it, we have no obligation, or right to our country.

Let me guess...you're also GOP? If you don't know your own rights or obligations in your own country, I can't help you, but I'm sure democratically speaking you have no more or less than the homosexuals have, or at least should have. In a country that is very clear about church and state being divided, that line is very blurry when it comes to a lot of republicans. I for one, applaud President Obama's stand on the right for homosexuals to be granted the same rights that heterosexuals have in your country.

When Jesus said to render what is Cesar to Cesar, he was referring to taxes and when he referred to marriage, he said, "What God hath brought together, let no man asunder". And we all know that "in the beginning", Adam and Eve were not Christians.

Actually He wasn't just talking about taxes, which the Pharisees were trying to trap Him into stating. He made it clear that money belonged to Ceasar, as it was issued by him. He did NOT say "pay" to Ceasar, He said, “So give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, <sup class="crossreference" value='(N)'></sup> and to God what is God’s.â€
Yes, Jesus did say in Mark 10:9; "Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.†Again you confuse Biblical instruction to believers with civic rights.
Nobody in the OT was Christian, hello?

The association between homosexuality and pedophilia, is that they are both morally wrong sexual acts according to God's word.

Yes, well so is beastiality, fornication, incest, necrophilia and lots of other acts. Take a read in Leviticus 18, and you find tons of wrongful acts. The issue is NOT getting believers to accept these acts, the issue is to get a democracy to extend these people the same rights that any heterosexual couple has in the society, even when they DON'T believe in God!

Remember who said, Luke 23:2 And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King.

and your point would be?

Paul put it this way: Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
What you may not know, is that there was a popular slogan in the days of Jesus. They went like this:
"There is no other name under heaven by which men can be saved than that of Caesar." Another saying was "Caesar is Lord."
I would say that within the cultural context of both Philippians 2:11 and Acts 4:12, both saying flew right in the face of government and society and were bold statements of faith. From another perspective, both were "good news" for him who had ears to hear.

Well this is NOT the topic, even though it may be true. I have no problem with God's word, ever. Just the way people try to distort and use it.

 

[jasoncran]

Really? Maybe you can quote that verse for us. We obviously ALWAYS have to put God first in our lives, that is NOT the issue here.





Really? Then I guess almost 43% of eligible voters broke that law in 2008 in your country. Or do you mean they are morally obligated to vote?




Let me guess...you're also GOP? If you don't know your own rights or obligations in your own country, I can't help you, but I'm sure democratically speaking you have no more or less than the homosexuals have, or at least should have. In a country that is very clear about church and state being divided, that line is very blurry when it comes to a lot of republicans. I for one, applaud President Obama's stand on the right for homosexuals to be granted the same rights that heterosexuals have in your country.





Actually He wasn't just talking about taxes, which the Pharisees were trying to trap Him into stating. He made it clear that money belonged to Ceasar, as it was issued by him. He did NOT say "pay" to Ceasar, He said, “So give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, <SUP class=crossreference value='(N)'></SUP>and to God what is God’s.â€
Yes, Jesus did say in Mark 10:9; "Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.†Again you confuse Biblical instruction to believers with civic rights.
Nobody in the OT was Christian, hello?





Yes, well so is beastiality, fornication, incest, necrophilia and lots of other acts. Take a read in Leviticus 18, and you find tons of wrongful acts. The issue is NOT getting believers to accept these acts, the issue is to get a democracy to extend these people the same rights that any heterosexual couple has in the society, even when they DON'T believe in God!




and your point would be?






Well this is NOT the topic, even though it may be true. I have no problem with God's word, ever. Just the way people try to distort and use it.

good i know a couple of lesbians in the army that may want a godly man to marry them.

you have just been volunteered to just that per the doma lift if it happens and you are a chaplian.

 

[Stan53]

good i know a couple of lesbians in the army that may want a godly man to marry them.

you have just been volunteered to just that per the doma lift if it happens and you are a chaplian.

Aside from you sounding facetious, what is it you're saying? It is kinda incohesive.

If you're trying to create a straw man, I think you've failed.

 

[jasoncran]

public notaries, and chaplians that work for the goverment cant discriminate. are there christians that do these jobs? YUP

so they can refuse to marry gays? NO they cant if they do they can be sued. justice of the peace is called a public notary in my state we cant go to the court house and get married unless we know someone who has that power to marry and these are judges, clerks of the courts and public notaries and pastors!

christians are in these lines of work, banks employ them all the time.so if you think that its just pastors that are being made to marry them think agian. those that are in this business cant legally tell a gay couple NO on the grounds of them being gay. thus not so much a straw man.

 

[stovebolts]

I identify myself as both a Christian and a US citizen. As a Christian, I am under the authority of God first, and government second. Scripture tells us to be submissive to government as long as it doesn't violate our / God's morality.

Really? Maybe you can quote that verse for us. We obviously ALWAYS have to put God first in our lives, that is NOT the issue here.

How about Romans 13, verses 1-10 for starters?

As a US citizen, I am obligated to vote my conscience. It is not simply a right.

Really? Then I guess almost 43% of eligible voters broke that law in 2008 in your country. Or do you mean they are morally obligated to vote?

If I said it was a responsible citizens duty to vote, would that clear it up for ya?

The way you tell it, we have no obligation, or right to our country.

Let me guess...you're also GOP? If you don't know your own rights or obligations in your own country, I can't help you, but I'm sure democratically speaking you have no more or less than the homosexuals have, or at least should have. In a country that is very clear about church and state being divided, that line is very blurry when it comes to a lot of republicans. I for one, applaud President Obama's stand on the right for homosexuals to be granted the same rights that heterosexuals have in your country.

Actually no, I'm not a part of the GOP and I dont' appreciate your flippant remark that followed. Really, you don't have to talk down to me like that, it's not conducive to an honest discussion.

As far as rights, rights are just that. Rights. Not just anyone can drive a car and not just anyone can get married. Oh, and that includes the marriage between a man and a woman just in case you didn't know. There are certain qualifiers for both.

Now then, about the seperation between church and state. Considering your a Canadian, I wouldn't expect you to understand our national history, but that church and state thingy? It's about having a national church govern like what we see in parts of Europe. So I think that your kind of confused about that matter. But anyway, just to be safe, I know of even an athiest (he's a buddy of mine) who doesn't support gay marriage, so this isn't just a "christian" thingy.

As far as your stand on Obama's stand on gay marriage, all I can say is that I'm honestly glad your not an American citizen and since your not an American citizen, you can't vote so really, you don't have a say. Kinda sucks to be you huh?

When Jesus said to render what is Cesar to Cesar, he was referring to taxes and when he referred to marriage, he said, "What God hath brought together, let no man asunder". And we all know that "in the beginning", Adam and Eve were not Christians.

Actually He wasn't just talking about taxes, which the Pharisees were trying to trap Him into stating. He made it clear that money belonged to Ceasar, as it was issued by him. He did NOT say "pay" to Ceasar, He said, “So give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”
Yes, Jesus did say in Mark 10:9; "Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” Again you confuse Biblical instruction to believers with civic rights.
Nobody in the OT was Christian, hello?

Wait a second... I think you missed something. If you remember, Cesar's face was on HIS money. Give to Cesar what is Cesars. At this point, please see Romans 13 again.

Now then, back to Adam and Eve. It wasn't Adam and Steve. No, it was Eve that was "bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh". You seem to make a disctinction between believers and non believers in this area. I find this very odd that you would approve of sinfull behavior, even for non believers. But even more disturbing is this line you draw between your Christianity and your secular view on marriage. BTW, pedophilia, homosexuality and adultery was widly accepted in Roman law in the days of Jesus. Yet even Rome had the sense to know that marriage was between a man and a woman.

The association between homosexuality and pedophilia, is that they are both morally wrong sexual acts according to God's word.

Yes, well so is beastiality, fornication, incest, necrophilia and lots of other acts. Take a read in Leviticus 18, and you find tons of wrongful acts. The issue is NOT getting believers to accept these acts, the issue is to get a democracy to extend these people the same rights that any heterosexual couple has in the society, even when they DON'T believe in God!

Wait, your not even making sense. First, what is a democracy? Am I and others not a part of the democracy? You use the word democracy in a way that means anything goes as long as it's from the liberal left! Dude, you've got to stop watching msnbc!

Remember who said, Luke 23:2 And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King.

and your point would be?

It obviously went well above your head...

Paul put it this way: Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
What you may not know, is that there was a popular slogan in the days of Jesus. They went like this:
"There is no other name under heaven by which men can be saved than that of Caesar." Another saying was "Caesar is Lord."
I would say that within the cultural context of both Philippians 2:11 and Acts 4:12, both saying flew right in the face of government and society and were bold statements of faith. From another perspective, both were "good news" for him who had ears to hear.

Well this is NOT the topic, even though it may be true. I have no problem with God's word, ever. Just the way people try to distort and use it.

As a Christian, I have a God given right to voice my views, even if the government disagrees. It's called freedom of speech in America. As a Citizen of the greatest country in the world, I also have a democratic opportunity to help shape how this great country governs. It is done by way of votes, and as a citizen of America, all citizens that are of age are eligible to vote. no, my child cannot vote, he does not qualify. By the way, he cannot legally drive on the road either... cause he doesn't qualify for that 'right' either.

 

[Stan53]

public notaries, and chaplains that work for the government cant discriminate. are there Christians that do these jobs? YUP

so they can refuse to marry gays? NO they cant if they do they can be sued. justice of the peace is called a public notary in my state we cant go to the court house and get married unless we know someone who has that power to marry and these are judges, clerks of the courts and public notaries and pastors!

Christians are in these lines of work, banks employ them all the time.so if you think that its just pastors that are being made to marry them think again. those that are in this business cant legally tell a gay couple NO on the grounds of them being gay. thus not so much a straw man.

Well I'm assuming you directed this response to my post even though you didn't have the courtesy to quote me.

You are extremely naive if you think anyone can make a chaplain, notary or justice of the peace to do what they believe to be wrong. There are always ways around it. Why do you think so many churches will not marry ANYONE if they haven't been attending for a certain period and don't take some sort of pre-marriage counselling?

First of all, "gay marriage" is currently banned in the U.S. Military. It HAS been allowed in the Canadian military since 2005, but chaplains can be excused due to religious convictions. I am more than sure that there are enough non-Christian notaries and JP's out there to handle the job should it be legalized.

Our governments are more than able to function without Christians, who work in it, having to compromise their beliefs.

 

[Stan53]

How about Romans 13, verses 1-10 for starters?

Sorry but that scripture only tells us to support the government. Where is the scripture that says, "as long as it doesn't violate our / God's morality.", to use your words in post #99? Since when does violating anyone's 'morality' constitute a valid reason for non-compliance in following ANY laws of the land? BTW, God does not have a morality.

If I said it was a responsible citizens duty to vote, would that clear it up for ya?

Yes it would, thanks. I feel the same way. Not quite what you said originally though is it?

Actually no, I'm not a part of the GOP and I don't' appreciate your flippant remark that followed. Really, you don't have to talk down to me like that, it's not conducive to an honest discussion.

Let me rephrase... do you vote GOP? Trust me my remark was far from flippant and I'm sorry if you feel I talked down to you, however you did butt in on a conversation with what I perceived to be an attitude. Please don't tell me it's a Forum as your excuse for butting in.

As far as rights, rights are just that. Rights. Not just anyone can drive a car and not just anyone can get married. Oh, and that includes the marriage between a man and a woman just in case you didn't know. There are certain qualifiers for both.

Really? You're gonna use that as an example? When was the last time a gay person was NOT granted a D/L because of his sexual orientation? The issue here is not about procuring a D/L is it? Do you think your state government should take away that right for gays?

Now then, about the separation between church and state. Considering your a Canadian, I wouldn't expect you to understand our national history, but that church and state thingy? It's about having a national church govern like what we see in parts of Europe. So I think that your kind of confused about that matter. But anyway, just to be safe, I know of even an atheist (he's a buddy of mine) who doesn't support gay marriage, so this isn't just a "Christian" thingy.

LOL, you just said something about 'talking down' to you? Trust me, I know more about your laws and way of government than you know about mine. For years, the courts have made it illegal in the U.S., to have ANY Christian activity in government funded facilities. I have followed these events with interest for over 40 years. I personally have no problem with keeping religion out of the government or schools, ANY religion. The only thing I find confusing is when Christians in your country want to legislate their own morality. God does NOT ask us to do that, nor does He want us to.

As far as your stand on Obama's stand on gay marriage, all I can say is that I'm honestly glad your not an American citizen and since your not an American citizen, you can't vote so really, you don't have a say. Kinda sucks to be you huh?

LOL...I said "I applaud", but your retort kind of confirms your political leanings.
FYI, gay marriage has been legal here for quite a while, so I would say it's gonna suck for you when it becomes legal in your country. It is very sad though, that so many "Christians" in your country, use their opposition to gay marriage, to hide their disdain and bias towards a group of fellow citizens.

Wait a second... I think you missed something. If you remember, Cesar's face was on HIS money. Give to Cesar what is Cesar's. At this point, please see Romans 13 again.

Yes. That is why I said what I did. Please pay attention, I really do not like having to repeat myself. Romans 13 was not the verse you originally gave. Try maintaining your responses within the context you make them.

Now then, back to Adam and Eve. It wasn't Adam and Steve. No, it was Eve that was "bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh". You seem to make a distinction between believers and non believers in this area. I find this very odd that you would approve of sinful behaviour, even for non believers. But even more disturbing is this line you draw between your Christianity and your secular view on marriage. BTW, paedophilia, homosexuality and adultery was widely accepted in Roman law in the days of Jesus. Yet even Rome had the sense to know that marriage was between a man and a woman.

This is typical of how people, like you, deflect and distort these kind of forums.
The issue is "gays acquiring the civil right to get married". It's NOT a Bible issue, since they are not subject to the Bible. I would challenge you to find anywhere in this thread, that I have stated I support gay lifestyles, or approve of their sexual behaviour. Now you are being totally dishonest and disingenuous. As you obviously have no education regarding Roman law in the days of Jesus, I won't bother to comment on your false assertion.

Wait, your not even making sense. First, what is a democracy? Am I and others not a part of the democracy? You use the word democracy in a way that means anything goes as long as it's from the liberal left! Dude, you've got to stop watching msnbc!

I do make sense, for someone who understands English and is able to actually follow a conversation, especially when they actually quote their own responses within context to mine. I suggest if you don't know what a democracy is, that you go online and study it. You may be surprised to find out what it actually is.
That liberal comment only serves to confirm your lack of honesty and forth-rightness in regards to my initial question about your political affiliation. FYI, I watch CBC News.

As a Christian, I have a God given right to voice my views, even if the government disagrees. It's called freedom of speech in America. As a Citizen of the greatest country in the world, I also have a democratic opportunity to help shape how this great country governs. It is done by way of votes, and as a citizen of America, all citizens that are of age are eligible to vote. no, my child cannot vote, he does not qualify. By the way, he cannot legally drive on the road either... cause he doesn't qualify for that 'right' either.

You obviously did NOT even read Romans 13:1-7. Try this verse on for size; Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, <sup class="crossreference" value='(C)'></sup> and those who do so will bring judgement on themselves. Then there is Romans 12:18; If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. <sup class="crossreference" value='(C)'></sup>
I challenge you to supply even one verse that shows you, as an American, have a God given RIGHT, to voice your views to ANYONE, especially your government.
1 Peter 2:13-15; Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: <sup class="crossreference" value='(AE)'></sup> whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, <sup class="versenum">14 </sup>or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong <sup class="crossreference" value='(AF)'></sup> and to commend those who do right. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AG)'></sup> <sup class="versenum">15 </sup>For it is God’s will <sup class="crossreference" value='(AH)'></sup> that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. <sup class="crossreference" value='(AI)'></sup>
<sup class="versenum"></sup>
<sup class="versenum"></sup>

 

[jasoncran]

Well I'm assuming you directed this response to my post even though you didn't have the courtesy to quote me.

You are extremely naive if you think anyone can make a chaplain, notary or justice of the peace to do what they believe to be wrong. There are always ways around it. Why do you think so many churches will not marry ANYONE if they haven't been attending for a certain period and don't take some sort of pre-marriage counselling?

First of all, "gay marriage" is currently banned in the U.S. Military. It HAS been allowed in the Canadian military since 2005, but chaplains can be excused due to religious convictions. I am more than sure that there are enough non-Christian notaries and JP's out there to handle the job should it be legalized.

Our governments are more than able to function without Christians, who work in it, having to compromise their beliefs.

can they? so the army wont ruin a mans career if he refuses to marry them on the grounds of civil rights? i have inquired to my unit chaplain at present you are right but do really think the army hasnt already deciding how to deal with this.its a civil rights matter.

niave?No sir. i have asked and tis a reality that if my chaplain is asked he will refuse or if he does he looses his ordaination and thus is removed from the army. if he refuses then the that is like saying the army allows discrimination

you just told me that world doesnt need jesus. are you serious?

a church cant on the grounds of civil rights refuse someone who is black and what to marry a white person without recourse if they are taken to court. they will loose a church may refuse to marry on grounds of them not being ready or what not.

so we dont need christians in the workforce? we should lie steal etc if the laws allow it.? after living out our values does include the vote.

 

[jasoncran]

my church pastor married me without such precounseling.she did state her mind on the matter but went along with it.

not all churches do counseling, sir.

 

[reba]

Closed for moderator review.