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[_ Old Earth _] DeMything Evolution

  • Thread starter Thread starter paxigoth7
  • Start date Start date
blueeyeliner said:
cubedbee said:
blueeyeliner said:
Stop defending your false religion so much and learn the
truth about it for once!

Yes, take your own advice. http://www.godandscience.org/

:) To show I'm not sexist,you may go first.
Cubed,I thought you claimed to believe in God? hmmm.........................

http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/
I do believe in God. If you had bothered to click my link, you would that the author of the site I linked you to does as well. I did click your link, but I'm not going to discuss it until you actually click mine and take some time to look at it. Come back when you can make an intelligent comment about it.
 
cubedbee said:
blueeyeliner said:
cubedbee said:
blueeyeliner said:
Stop defending your false religion so much and learn the
truth about it for once!

Yes, take your own advice. http://www.godandscience.org/

:) To show I'm not sexist,you may go first.
Cubed,I thought you claimed to believe in God? hmmm.........................

http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/
I do believe in God. If you had bothered to click my link, you would that the author of the site I linked you to does as well. I did click your link, but I'm not going to discuss it until you actually click mine and take some time to look at it. Come back when you can make an intelligent comment about it.
:B-fly: Very well. Perhaps you have forgotten from previous posts that
I have been on that site before. While I do agree with some of what they
teach,there are areas that I do not agree with.
I'll have another look at it.
 
:wink: Cubed,it appears that we believe simular to one another.
 
Blue, stop posting to this thread you are babbling about things that have almost nothing to do with the subject, if you want, make your own thread to babble in. I'm trying to argue with paxigoth, who I will reply to in a few hours please keep your pants on; while you blueeyeliner, have been doing nothing but make your usual irrelevant flair. Now bugger off.
 
SyntaxVorlon/Blue, stop posting to this thread you are babbling about things that have almost nothing to do with the subject, if you want, make your own thread to babble in. I'm trying to argue with paxigoth, who I will reply to in a few hours please keep your pants on; while you blueeyeliner, have been doing nothing but make your usual irrelevant flair. Now bugger off.

:wink: Repay? bugger off? what?
Are the words "bugger Off" suppose to mean something?
I wasn't even talking to you,so does this mean you will take
back your challenge to debate me now?
How could your single cell aomeba system understand what I
mean anyway? Of course your confused,could I expect anything
else?
 
"Bugger off" means go away, but not quite so polite.

I don't think SyntaxVorlon's cranium is damaged badly enough to debate you with your own level of intellect. It would be like watching lion fight rabbit.
 
Heathen said:
"Bugger off" means go away, but not quite so polite.

I don't think SyntaxVorlon's cranium is damaged badly enough to debate you with your own level of intellect. It would be like watching lion fight rabbit.

:wink: You think? So you have made yourself his watch dog?
You cannot win so you have to resort to these cheap shots,but
what you don't realize is that the Lion of Judah is with me,not
you. You are the only one here that I have a major issue with
anyway. I am not sore at Syntax. He may be sore at me,but
I'm use to it.
 
Yes, I do think. I am well acquainted with the term "bugger off".
 
Creationists have _some_ valid arguments for saying that science proves their view
What? Please provide these.

For example, of course carbon dating dates left overs as being much older than 6,000 yrs. I know there are theories for what happened at millions and billions of years. I'm scepticle at such details.
Your knowledge in this area is lacking. Carbon dating is not the only way of using radiometric decay to gauge the age of things. It's Uranium decay that is used to find ages that are extremely old, and it is this method that was able to establish the age of 4.5 billion years for the solar system. And other dating methods, study of cosmological properties of the universe, beyrillium content in certain old stars, etc give us a fairly good date of ~13.7 billion years old for the universe itself.(BTW, the word is sceptical(or skeptical))
 
Oops, wrong button, never the less:
Furthermore, scientists are often pushed either by peer pressure or by financial goals to find 'proof' for things even when they themselves don't entirely agree.
This is why peer review catches these and keeps such bad science from being considered. If a finding isn't repeatable it lacks credibility in the scientific community.

will be arguing for something different from either creationism or evolution?
Most likely, but since all of the vast amount of evidence we have points toward evolution, then I would put my money on evolution winning out in the public eye.

That's what the Jewish people did when they created their own creation stories.
WHAT??! Please establish this! You've just stated that ancient hebrews conducted studies into yahweh or something, with similar intellectual rigor to todays scientists, and that is teetering on the absurd.

But it went too far. This neo-gnostic search of 'knowledge' ended up bringing ideas that we really could figure _everything_ out.
I'm not sure what you're annoyed at here, inquiry into areas that used to be the sole province of religions, as in metaphysics, ethics, etc?

Fundamentalism is a victim of the modern worldview. Somehow, the debates always seem to end up with whether or not we can 'prove' creationism, god, the resurrection. The issue I have is not really with whatever way the evidence may slant, whether or not creationism or evolution or theory X seems to be more accurate. The disagreement seems to be over what has more meaning: the knowledge of men (epistemology of sin) or the knowledge of God (epistemology of love). Both are knowledge, both are real, and we can (and do) study both. The disagreement isn't over whether or not evolution may be literally true, maybe it is.
Incorrect, fundamentalism IS a modern worldview(modern as in younger than 500 years old). It's a reaction to more liberal humanist ethics and by extention all liberal issues, including sound science that is contrary to literal interpretation of their scripture.
Now, again you call these concepts you have epistemology of sin and love, knowledge of man and god, you are still not being in ANY WAY CLEAR. Are you saying that the knowledge that humans gain by studying the world is sinful? That 'knowledge' gained by studying scripture is worthy as real knowledge?
And you also call them both "real," do you mean that two contradictory ideas can be considered correct at once?

The satanic element is found in how evolution is usually cast and interpretted. You may not personally believe that evolution teaches that life is meaningless, that we are Godless, etc. etc.
As I said before, you are taking 'satanic' anti-god whatever world view and imposing it onto evolution. Evolution does not have an ethical meaning, none, it does not say that we are godless and meaningless, it doesn't say that we are meaningful and god's children. It is theologically neutral. The issue is more how it contrasts with biblical literalism, and this is why the christian right attacks evolution.

that such worldview assumptions can (and have) caused people to turn into little Hitlers, Stalins and Husseins.
BULL
For one thing, Hitler and Saddam were religious nutballs, and Stalin was a Lamarckist idiot, and they were all motivated by racism, not evolution.
But that doesn't matter in this case either way, because their tyranny was not prompted by a view of natural selection as a biological process. They, just like you, are imposing a presupposed ethical format onto a scientific theory.

it is our responsibility to interpret evolution much the way that so called 'theistic evolutionists' have. I'm not a theistic evolution because I still see holes in the evolutionist theory.
Wait, who's responsibility? And what holes?
I have to go, so I may go on, but please respond as soon as you can.
 
blueeyeliner said:
Heathen said:
"Bugger off" means go away, but not quite so polite.

I don't think SyntaxVorlon's cranium is damaged badly enough to debate you with your own level of intellect. It would be like watching lion fight rabbit.

:wink: You think? So you have made yourself his watch dog?
You cannot win so you have to resort to these cheap shots,but
what you don't realize is that the Lion of Judah is with me,not
you. You are the only one here that I have a major issue with
anyway. I am not sore at Syntax. He may be sore at me,but
I'm use to it.
Now I know what blue's been smoking.
 
Quote:
Creationists have _some_ valid arguments for saying that science proves their view

What? Please provide these.


I will clarify my statement. Creation science is reactionary. What they do is take parts of Genesis literally... and try to find scientific reasons why it isn't unreasonable to take it literally. Sometimes they appear to be able to argue some of these things. For example, there is a book out called "Starlight and Time" that attempts to harmonise a young earth with the speed of light and visualisation of other planets, etc. etc. In other words, if the earth was only 6,000 years old, then how things that would take millions of years to reach earth get here? And thus the book goes on... The rest of creation science is basically the same type thing.

I have two problems with creation science in general. 1. Scientific. It reaches scientific conclusions first and then looks for evidence as opposed to making no conclusions until all evidence has been researched. 2. Biblical. It forces a literalism on Genesis that is contrary to what Genesis originally was. They only want you to believe that their view is the conservative one. In reality all it conserves is their own piety.
 
Quote:
For example, of course carbon dating dates left overs as being much older than 6,000 yrs. I know there are theories for what happened at millions and billions of years. I'm scepticle at such details.

Your knowledge in this area is lacking. Carbon dating is not the only way of using radiometric decay to gauge the age of things. It's Uranium decay that is used to find ages that are extremely old, and it is this method that was able to establish the age of 4.5 billion years for the solar system. And other dating methods, study of cosmological properties of the universe, beyrillium content in certain old stars, etc give us a fairly good date of ~13.7 billion years old for the universe itself.(BTW, the word is sceptical(or skeptical))


You are correct. My major was in Biblical antiquity, not science. Thanks for sharing this information...
 
Quote:
Furthermore, scientists are often pushed either by peer pressure or by financial goals to find 'proof' for things even when they themselves don't entirely agree.

This is why peer review catches these and keeps such bad science from being considered. If a finding isn't repeatable it lacks credibility in the scientific community.


Sometimes. I'm not changing my scepticism on this issue. I took Current issues in Science my senior year and our professor had a lot of evidence to show us that sometimes peer review doesn't catch it. He wasn't a fundamentalist or anything like that either. He was an evolutionist. However, he was also post-modern and honest about things that really go on. Humans are fallen and sinful and this corrupts even our attempts to understand evidence and make scientific theories. I realise this is a religious projection onto the issue and that it is my own relative opinion.
 
Quote:
will be arguing for something different from either creationism or evolution?

Most likely, but since all of the vast amount of evidence we have points toward evolution, then I would put my money on evolution winning out in the public eye.


For now, yes. I would agree. For the future, who's to say? That's one of my biggest points... we don't know what we may discover or what may come to light. I have to take an entirely agnostic position on this...
 
That's what the Jewish people did when they created their own creation stories.

WHAT??! Please establish this! You've just stated that ancient hebrews conducted studies into yahweh or something, with similar intellectual rigor to todays scientists, and that is teetering on the absurd.


No. That is what theory is... looking at whatever evidence we have and trying to answer it the best we can with what we have. Ancient creation myths seem absurd to us only because of our own scientific advancements. If we had been living back then it would have been our own best theories. No, they didn't do research into God (knowledge about God is always subjective, not objective).

They did think intellectually and they did come to the best conclusions given the premodern worldview. For example, virtually every nation in the Mesopotamian area made up a story about a great flood that happened in that area and tried to explain it. They observed that a great flood had occurred and they wanted to explain it, why it happened. They came up with competing theologies as to the role that God or gods played in it. They were as 'scientific' as they could have been for their own time.
 
paxigoth7 said:
No. That is what theory is... looking at whatever evidence we have and trying to answer it the best we can with what we have.

If by theory you mean scientific theory...then no. A theory is testable, and repeatable. God does not apply to these, because he's not testable, or repeatable.

Ancient creation myths seem absurd to us only because of our own scientific advancements. If we had been living back then it would have been our own best theories. No, they didn't do research into God (knowledge about God is always subjective, not objective).

No...it wouldn't have been a theory...it would have been a belief.

They did think intellectually and they did come to the best conclusions given the premodern worldview. For example, virtually every nation in the Mesopotamian area made up a story about a great flood that happened in that area and tried to explain it. They observed that a great flood had occurred and they wanted to explain it, why it happened. They came up with competing theologies as to the role that God or gods played in it. They were as 'scientific' as they could have been for their own time.

Saying "goddidit" is not scientific in the least. It's a belief. Applying angry deities to a situation is not scientific at all.
 
Ah... you think like someone in the modern era... :-) that's ok... premodern people felt differently...
 
Quote:
But it went too far. This neo-gnostic search of 'knowledge' ended up bringing ideas that we really could figure _everything_ out.

I'm not sure what you're annoyed at here, inquiry into areas that used to be the sole province of religions, as in metaphysics, ethics, etc?


No, the actual inquiry into anything doesn't annoy me. I support higher criticism and hypercriticism...

However, some things are more important than other things. Some things are more relevant in life than other things. 'god' is, for you, whatever is the most important/relevant thing in your life. I'm annoyed at the idea that people (by no means not everyone in the field but some) would make scientific study their god and make it the most important thing (whether it takes the form of trying to prove or disprove something like creation science, for example). Like I said, though, that's my view. But the disagrement I may have with someone is not over the particulars of what is or isn't 'proven' but the relevance thereof. For Christians, 'god' is found in Jesus. Thus, for Christians, Jesus is more relevant than anything else. I'm saying all of this to clarify my own position, not to force my position on anyone else.
 
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