Destroying the guilty with the innocent

[LovethroughDove]

.



ZERO, and I mean ZERO scripture support this. Word only, and you stay on track. I can give plenty of scriptures that will extend your life though.

Revelation 12:11 They overcame him (the devil) by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; (as I am doing now) they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

19 Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right. (1 Peter 4:19 NASB)

 

[jasonc]

why is it that some cant seem to get the idea that a few times god order the death of babies or did kill them himself?

isreal was told to kill every man woman and child in some cities. how does a one/month. three month/toddler sin?if so then should we preach to them?

 

[iLOVE]

why is it that some cant seem to get the idea that a few times god order the death of babies or did kill them himself?

isreal was told to kill every man woman and child in some cities. how does a one/month. three month/toddler sin?if so then should we preach to them?

You should post the scriptures with your statement so we can all learn.

 

[jasonc]

You should post the scriptures with your statement so we can all learn.

the peshac.

when I shall Passover the door with the blood on it the destroyer shall not slay the firstborn of that house.

and it came to pass that a great cry came out from the Egyptians as their firstborn male sons were all dead.

exodus 11
exodus 12


lets be reasonable. every day there is a birthday. isreal at that time had one million people. Egypt had more then that. of just isreal if there is 365 days in a year. how many would be born on each day? at least one.

 

[Gary]

There is no scripture that says he does. I would need scripture to believe something.

I'm like that too. :yes


Psalm 39
4 Lord, make me to know mine end, and the measure of my days, what it is: that I may know how frail I am.


This verse seems to indicate that our days are numbered. "What are the number of my days? What is my allotted time?"


Now these next verses indicate that the Lord is able to extend someones life past the appointed time of death.


2 Kings 20
6 And I will add unto thy days fifteen years; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.

1 Kings 3
14 And if thou wilt walk in my ways, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as thy father David did walk, then I will lengthen thy days.

Proverbs 3
1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:
2 For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.


Now if the Lord is able to extend someones life, that means He has control over their life and death.


Like the verse from Psalm, these next verses from Job also indicate our days are numbered.


Job 7
1 Is there not an appointed time to man upon earth? are not his days also like the days of an hireling?

Job 5
26 Thou shalt come to thy grave in a full age, like as a shock of corn cometh in in his season.

Job 14
5 Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;



So then, it is my belief that God does indeed have total control over mans days on this planet. If He can stop a death from occurring, that means He has control over that life. And if He's going to extend an individuals life, He has to know the exact moment of death in order to extend it.

Total control.
.

 

[Brother Mike]

Many Christians including some pastors do not have understanding of scriptures. Until this revelation is revealed by the Holy Spirit we all will utter scriptures without wisdom, understanding, and knowledge. Having said that, Job uttered words about God without wisdom, understanding, and knowledge - too wonderful for his understanding. The bible says, "Through all this Job did not sin nor did he blame God." Job 1:22 NASB

The scripture says it like this, "The purpose of a test is to reveal what is in your heart". 2 Chronicles 32:31 NLT
All Christians will be tested...fans and disciples! If God allows it (pain & suffering) He has a purpose for it. Hebrews 12:25 NIV says, "See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. In other words draw near to Jesus when you are experiencing chaos in your life because He is talking to you. Ebloa is a prime example.

I challenge you to go over the book of Job prayerfully. Best the Lord show you. The common understanding through mans wisdom is that God put Job through a test of some type, so see what Job is made of. That means God gave permission to Satan to murder his children, steal his wealth, and make him sick.

There is a reason Job went through what he did, Job is a great lesson, but it's a lesson Job had no revelation about. You have to have revelation about something for sin to be imputed to you.

And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD. (Another narrative) In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.
(Job 1:21-22)

Job did charge God, but not foolishly. Job honestly believed God was responsible for the trouble. So, much He concluded it profited man nothing to serve God because bad stuff is going to happen anyway. The Lord gives, the Lord takes........ NO, Paul said the gifts and callings are all given free, and not taken back.

The reason we are reminded Job did not sin after making that comment, is because Job did exactly what Satan claimed Job would do. The problem is gutless translators.

Bless (Barak) be the name of the Lord.

But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse (Barak) thee to thy face.
(Job 1:11)

YLT:
The work of his hands Thou hast blessed, and his substance hath spread in the land, and yet, put forth, I pray Thee, Thy hand, and strike against anything that he hath--if not: to Thy face he doth bless Thee!'
(Job 1:11)

Satan never used any Hebrew Word for curse, He used Barak, which means to salute back, to bless back, to acknowledge what was done. It was only translated Cursed in Job because the translators did not know what to do with it. So, they used it to salute back in a non-thankful way.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_bless.html

Read it again, the Lord never gave permission or had anything to do with what happened to Job. IN fact, God said it was for no purpose at all.

Sorry Mike but you're wrong. None of what you have drawn away from the full context of the Whole Word works within the Bible to set your case as true. What I said stands.

That is a lot of the word. The thing is, I have scriptures and far more than those. God does not operate on predestination with man, and does not operate with some magic ball foreknowledge. We do what he said, we get what he said. We don't ignore tons of scriptures to believe something that is not there. God is very specific about what He knows. He knows us according to our ways, not some predestination or foreknowledge.

He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
(Luk 13:6-9)

Notice Jesus did not say, I already know the outcome, go ahead and let the tree live?

And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
(Gen 18:20-21)

How did God find out?

The problem is religion wants to believe something despite what God said. Surely you can't say 20 scriptural evidence of what I am saying can't be true based on what some want to believe with No evidence? I hope that is not the case.

And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
(Gen 22:12)

What scriptures don't you want to believe? I can cover all the used evidence scriptures of some predestination and foreknowledge, I know them all.

Revelation 12:11 They overcame him (the devil) by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; (as I am doing now) they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.

yes, but we need the scripture where God is the one that decides when we die. We should all be convinced enough to give our life for the Word. If we have scripture that tells us we can extend our life, then it can't be God said anywhere he picks our time to die. Not possible.

19 Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right. (1 Peter 4:19 NASB)

I covered this in another thread, what is the subject here? It does not say we suffer because it's the will of God, it says we suffer according to the will.

the whole passage is a group that suffer for their wrong and a group that suffer doing right, the will of God.

I'm like that too. :yes


Psalm 39
4 Lord, make me to know mine end, and the measure of my days, what it is: that I may know how frail I am.
This verse seems to indicate that our days are numbered. "What are the number of my days? What is my allotted time?"
Now these next verses indicate that the Lord is able to extend someones life past the appointed time of death.

Total control.
.

These are all good points Gary, well thought out. The Lord can definitely extend our life.

All the scriptures you used though for longer days are those that obey the Lord. Lot's of scriptures that the wicked get cut off short.

I wisdom:
Pro 3:16 Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour.

Walking in the wisdom of God will lengthen our days.

What man is he that desireth life, and loveth many days, that he may see good? Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile.
(Psa 34:12-13)

Keeping our tongue will make our days longer.

Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
(Pro 18:21)

The power of death and life are in our tongues.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
(Deu 30:19)

Choosing life and blessing prolongs our days.

We have to take everything into account. My statement is that we determine a long life or not. If we can do things that shorten it, then we control that. If we can do things to make it longer then we control that.

Pro 4:10 Hear, O my son, and receive my sayings; and the years of thy life shall be many.

The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.
(Psa 90:10)

God has a 70-80 time frame, use to be 120 so I am not sure why God shortened that. So there is a time to die, and we are definitely appointed a time to die.

Can we shorten our years? yep
Can we lengthen them? Yep
Do we have to die someday if the Lord tarry's his coming? yep.

blessings.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I covered this in another thread, what is the subject here? It does not say we suffer because it's the will of God, it says we suffer according to the will.

the whole passage is a group that suffer for their wrong and a group that suffer doing right, the will of God.

You're saying that it is God's will that we suffer righteously if/when we do suffer, not that it's God's will that we suffer to begin with. But Peter explains earlier in his letter that we share in Christ's purposeful calling to suffer for the ungodly:

"20... But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.
21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps..." (1 Peter 2:20-21 NASB)

You're saying that we don't have the same calling and purpose of suffering for the ungodly that Christ received. That's completely contrary to what Peter says. He says we DO have this same calling and purpose to suffer for the ungodly, and not only that but that we are to walk in it.

In the same way that we are healed by Christ's stripes, so it is that people who abuse us because we are righteous can be pointed to Christ and healed through our forbearance and long suffering . We have all been PURPOSELY called to share in this ministry along with Christ. You're in effect saying, "I won't do that. I don't have to do that, even though that is my calling and purpose in Christ, just as it was for Christ himself, and a calling and purpose Peter says was an example for me to follow in."

 

[th1b.taylor]

Read it again, the Lord never gave permission or had anything to do with what happened to Job. IN fact, God said it was for no purpose at all.

This was not pointed at me but, Mike, you are in need, it seems, of a thorough study of Job, Satan has never been able to do anything without seeking god's permission. Your positioning here is tantamount to equalizing satan, the worm rebel, with the Most Holy God and may that never be.

That is a lot of the word.

No sir, not a lot it only takes about 80 hours to read it through as one would and should, any book. When we look at Mal. 3:6a we find a truth that is ever imperative to understanding anything of God.

I was, early in my study under the tutelage of the Holy Spirit, taught my and it is greatly accepted, first rule of Hermeneutics, "No passage, verse nor grouping of verses can ever be fully understood without the light of all scripture shinning on it."

I'll give any man or woman that the personal, idiomatic, preferences of the forty, more or less, penmen, definitely not authors, of the God Inspired Scriptural Records are found in the writings but we must never, never, forget who the Author is, it's God. (See John 1:1-5)

The thing is, I have scriptures and far more than those. God does not operate on predestination with man, and does not operate with some magic ball foreknowledge. We do what he said, we get what he said. We don't ignore tons of scriptures to believe something that is not there. God is very specific about what He knows. He knows us according to our ways, not some predestination or foreknowledge.

WOW! Mike! Until this statement I have not found serious error that I recall in your teaching and I pray you do not mean this the way it reads.

If you have have given my teaching, even, cursory attention you will know that I am a Baptist of the like of few. I am not an Armenian, few real Baptists believe that bunk, I am not a Five Point Hyper Calvinist nor am I one of the half baked Calvinists. Like my first Pastor I am a Biblicist. That means, if the Bible teaches it, I believe!

I am needing to give you a measure of leeway on the highlighted portion of the quote and I do not believe you mean that to sound the way it does. In the first place you have taken the low road here and tried, as nearly as I can tell to draw me into a stupid argument by changing the subject, mid stream.

But I will try to hold the higher way and address your out of pace comment. Predestination is a fact! It is a grossly misunderstood concept but it is fact, taught by God. And I would not relish standing in front of God trying to explain that magic ball comment.

The Bible says: "For you did form my inward parts: You did knit me together in my mother's womb I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made", Psalm 139 vv.13,14.

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you. Before you were born I sanctified you. I ordained you as a prophet to the nations", Jeremiah 1: 3.

God knew all about us long before we were "formed in the womb". He sanctified us before we were formed in the womb.

This is exactly what the Bible teaches, in Ephesians 1: 3, 4: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places with Christ Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love"

Read more: http://www.freechristianteaching.org/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=104#ixzz3GV14qxHL
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution Non-Commercial No Derivatives

 

[for_his_glory]

There is no scripture that says he does. I would need scripture to believe something. God did say we choose life or death, choose to be cursed or choose to be blessed. He records our choice as record in heaven and earth. Choices are made by words and or actions. Jesus said every Idle word we speak (dormant inactive words that come out of the abundance of our heart) we give an account as those bring forth evil or good.

So, God said we choose. We don't pass the choice over to God if he told us it's our responsibility.

These doctrines of foreknowledge and predestination come from the same spirit that is in the world, man does not like to take responsibility for anything. God's fault, not my fault.

God knows the end from the beginning is not a scripture, but a misquote from Isa, whom God said concerning his word that he will declare the end from what started his counsel will stand. If God speaks something it happens. If God speaks to people or a person then what happens is up to them as we see the promise removed from Eli, Saul, and Israel. Not God's fault, but man not agreeing with God. Hence Peter said though we personally have seen. We have a more sure word of prophecy.

What do you make of these verses as it is God that is speaking.

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Isa 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Ecc 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
Ecc 3:2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
Ecc 3:11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

 

[iLOVE]

I challenge you to go over the book of Job prayerfully. Best the Lord show you. The common understanding through mans wisdom is that God put Job through a test of some type, so see what Job is made of. That means God gave permission to Satan to murder his children, steal his wealth, and make him sick.

There is a reason Job went through what he did, Job is a great lesson, but it's a lesson Job had no revelation about. You have to have revelation about something for sin to be imputed to you.

And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD. (Another narrative) In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.
(Job 1:21-22)

Job did charge God, but not foolishly. Job honestly believed God was responsible for the trouble. So, much He concluded it profited man nothing to serve God because bad stuff is going to happen anyway. The Lord gives, the Lord takes........ NO, Paul said the gifts and callings are all given free, and not taken back.

The reason we are reminded Job did not sin after making that comment, is because Job did exactly what Satan claimed Job would do. The problem is gutless translators.

Bless (Barak) be the name of the Lord.

But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse (Barak) thee to thy face.
(Job 1:11)

YLT:
The work of his hands Thou hast blessed, and his substance hath spread in the land, and yet, put forth, I pray Thee, Thy hand, and strike against anything that he hath--if not: to Thy face he doth bless Thee!'
(Job 1:11)

Satan never used any Hebrew Word for curse, He used Barak, which means to salute back, to bless back, to acknowledge what was done. It was only translated Cursed in Job because the translators did not know what to do with it. So, they used it to salute back in a non-thankful way.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/27_bless.html

Read it again, the Lord never gave permission or had anything to do with what happened to Job. IN fact, God said it was for no purpose at all.



That is a lot of the word. The thing is, I have scriptures and far more than those. God does not operate on predestination with man, and does not operate with some magic ball foreknowledge. We do what he said, we get what he said. We don't ignore tons of scriptures to believe something that is not there. God is very specific about what He knows. He knows us according to our ways, not some predestination or foreknowledge.

He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
(Luk 13:6-9)

Notice Jesus did not say, I already know the outcome, go ahead and let the tree live?

And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
(Gen 18:20-21)

How did God find out?

The problem is religion wants to believe something despite what God said. Surely you can't say 20 scriptural evidence of what I am saying can't be true based on what some want to believe with No evidence? I hope that is not the case.

And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
(Gen 22:12)

What scriptures don't you want to believe? I can cover all the used evidence scriptures of some predestination and foreknowledge, I know them all.



yes, but we need the scripture where God is the one that decides when we die. We should all be convinced enough to give our life for the Word. If we have scripture that tells us we can extend our life, then it can't be God said anywhere he picks our time to die. Not possible.



I covered this in another thread, what is the subject here? It does not say we suffer because it's the will of God, it says we suffer according to the will.

the whole passage is a group that suffer for their wrong and a group that suffer doing right, the will of God.



These are all good points Gary, well thought out. The Lord can definitely extend our life.

All the scriptures you used though for longer days are those that obey the Lord. Lot's of scriptures that the wicked get cut off short.

I wisdom:
Pro 3:16 Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour.

Walking in the wisdom of God will lengthen our days.

What man is he that desireth life, and loveth many days, that he may see good? Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile.
(Psa 34:12-13)

Keeping our tongue will make our days longer.

Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
(Pro 18:21)

The power of death and life are in our tongues.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
(Deu 30:19)

Choosing life and blessing prolongs our days.

We have to take everything into account. My statement is that we determine a long life or not. If we can do things that shorten it, then we control that. If we can do things to make it longer then we control that.

Pro 4:10 Hear, O my son, and receive my sayings; and the years of thy life shall be many.

The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.
(Psa 90:10)

God has a 70-80 time frame, use to be 120 so I am not sure why God shortened that. So there is a time to die, and we are definitely appointed a time to die.

Can we shorten our years? yep
Can we lengthen them? Yep
Do we have to die someday if the Lord tarry's his coming? yep.

blessings.

God doesn't employee Satan to do anything. Satan is self- employed. The scripture says lead us not into temptation not lead us to temptation. Ecclesiastes 10:8 tells us when the hedge is up the serpent can't strike. Job confessed out of his mouth what was in his heart..."What I always feared has happened to me. What I dreaded has come true." Job 3:25 NLT

No one fully knows the "Laws of Heaven" why God allows children who are gifts from Him to suffer extreme violence. The only thing we can do is draw near and Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them.

 

[CenturionForChrist]

I reject the idea that a loving God would will someone to for instance to be raped or murdered. It happens because people are sinners and the world is not perfect. Because we live in it we sometimes become the victim of it, this is why God allows us to govern ourselves and create judicial law (police military courts etc.). The word says the wages of sin is death, this is why such things happen.

 

[th1b.taylor]

There is no scripture that says he does. I would need scripture to believe something. God did say we choose life or death, choose to be cursed or choose to be blessed. He records our choice as record in heaven and earth. Choices are made by words and or actions. Jesus said every Idle word we speak (dormant inactive words that come out of the abundance of our heart) we give an account as those bring forth evil or good.

So, God said we choose. We don't pass the choice over to God if he told us it's our responsibility.

These doctrines of foreknowledge and predestination come from the same spirit that is in the world, man does not like to take responsibility for anything. God's fault, not my fault.

God knows the end from the beginning is not a scripture, but a misquote from Isa, whom God said concerning his word that he will declare the end from what started his counsel will stand. If God speaks something it happens. If God speaks to people or a person then what happens is up to them as we see the promise removed from Eli, Saul, and Israel. Not God's fault, but man not agreeing with God. Hence Peter said though we personally have seen. We have a more sure word of prophecy.

Mike,
You are repeatedly denying the basic truth of God. God is omnipotent and you, really, need a study of God as lead by the references in the Nave's Topical Bible. I own a copy that cost me 25 for a hard back and it is found on line and I have it in all three of my computer Bible Study programs.

Since you attempted to beguile me with injecting the Five Point Hyper Calvinist nonsense by inference and it has become important, now, I'll explain the little known Biblicist's position, it covers this matter.

PREDESTINATION

-General scriptures concerning
Ge 21:12,13; Ex 9:16; 33:19; De 4:37; 7:7,8; 10:15; 32:8;
Jos 11:20; 1Sa 12:22; 1Ki 12:15; 20:42; 2Ki 19:25; 2Ch 6:6;
Job 23:13,14; Ps 33:12; 65:4; 78:67,68,70-72; 105:17-22;
135:4; Pr 16:4; Isa 44:1,2,7; Jer 1:4,5; Mal 1:2,3; Mt
11:25,26; 20:16,23; 22:14; 24:22,40,41; 25:34; 26:24; Mr
13:20,22; 14:21; Lu 4:25-27; 8:10; 10:20; 17:34-36; 18:7;
22:22; Joh 6:37,39,44,45; 15:16,19; 17:2,6,9; 21:23; Ac 1:7;
2:23,39,47; 3:18; 4:28; 13:48; 17:26; 22:14; Ro 1:6;
8:28-30,33; 9:7-33; 11:5,7,8; 1Co 1:26-29; 2:7; Ga 1:15; Eph
1:4,5,9-11; 2:10; 3:11; Col 3:12; 1Th 1:4; 2:12; 2Th 2:13;
2Ti 1:9; Tit 1:1,2; Jas 1:18; 1Pe 1:2,20; 2Pe 1:10; Jude
1:4; Re 13:8

-EXEMPLIFIED
In the destruction of
Eli's sons
1Sa 2:25
The Hivites
Jos 11:20
The Philistines
Jud 14:4
Ahaziah
2Ch 22:7
Amaziah and the idolatrous Jews
2Ch 25:20
In the covenant with Abraham to have posterity
Ge 21:12; Ne 9:7,8
Zerubbabel
Hag 2:23
The apostles
Joh 13:18; 15:19
Jacob
Ro 9:12,13
Rufus
Ro 16:13
Paul
Ga 1:15
See CONTINGENCIES (Naves)

The Calvinist and Hyper Calvinist beliefs can only be supported, as is the case for the Armenian, by denying the light of all scripture to shine upon the proof texts an individual might choose to use. But as I and a few other Whole Bible believers have determined, Predestination never removes another scriptural teaching, Free Choice.

No, we must consider all of scripture to avoid making mistakes and those mistakes, thus, used by Satan, the great liar, to become entrenched heresies. God created this Time/Space continuum for our benefit but that does not limit Him. Scripture teaches us that a thousand of our years are as a day unto God. Time has no meaning to God, not as we know it.

God knows the beginning from the end and He can only do that if He is there! It is recorded several times for our edification, "Where can I hide from you?" We cannot hide from God for where we go to hide, God is there. If we plan a future hiding place, we are to late, God is already there!

There is no limit to God and so it is that before He created the planets He knew that Bill Taylor would grow up to be an Atheist. God also knew that I would convert and serve Him on Jan. 1, 1990... before He created Adam, my earthly father. With this knowledge He recorded my name in the Book of Life before creating the earth.

This is simple and short but you can do the study, if you please.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I reject the idea that a loving God would will someone to for instance to be raped or murdered. It happens because people are sinners and the world is not perfect. Because we live in it we sometimes become the victim of it, this is why God allows us to govern ourselves and create judicial law (police military courts etc.). The word says the wages of sin is death, this is why such things happen.

CFC,
Please don't be arrogant and try to define God like that. I posted a short study from the Nave's for Mike, please study it with him.