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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Destruction of America and rapture
- Thread starter Endtime_Survivors
- Start date
B
Brother Mike
Guest
That's funny.
It's hard for me to think that a Spirit filled Christian can believe such nonsense as the pre-trip Rapture doctrine.
Notice that the same coming by which the Lord gathers His people at the resurrection/rapture, is also the same coming that He destroys the antichrist.
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8
The complete end of the pre-trib rapture nonsense in one simple paragraph.
The coming of the Lord to resurrect and rapture His people is the very same coming of the Lord that destroys the antichrist.
JLB
We have been through this already, pages of it.
Sinthesis
Member
Like it or not, the USA is the vanguard of western civilization, which is itself increasingly governed by Christian principles. In its time, Rome was the vanguard of a world civilization governed by beastly principles. Jesus conquered Rome, and ever since has been progressively destroying and remaking western civilization in His image, so that eventually Christ's doctrine will fill the entire globe. Unfortunately this perspective of Christ's ongoing campaign of conquest is difficult to acquire for His soldiers in the trenches.
smaller
Member
Like it or not, the USA is the vanguard of western civilization, which is itself increasingly governed by Christian principles. In its time, Rome was the vanguard of a world civilization governed by beastly principles. Jesus conquered Rome, and ever since has been progressively destroying and remaking western civilization in His image, so that eventually Christ's doctrine will fill the entire globe. Unfortunately this perspective of Christ's ongoing campaign of conquest is difficult to acquire for His soldiers in the trenches.
Yeah, helmet required for that claim.
There is a more basic conflict involved for every person that scripture describes, and there is no remedy for the conflict other than to try to understand that it's a fact and why it is so:
Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Only God Himself can and will (eventually) resolve this conflict. The conflict itself is in fact Divinely Intentional. Romans 11:32, 1 Cor. 15:42-47.
Philippians 3:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
This is the change we are to represent by belief in Christ, in simple faith. That is the essence of the promise of the Gospel. In the meantime however the conflict is quite real for everyone.
We have and you always say the same thing... which is: "we have been through this", while never reading what is plainly written
Notice that the same coming by which the Lord gathers His people at the resurrection/rapture, is also the same coming that He destroys the antichrist.
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.2 Thessalonians 2:1-8
The coming of the Lord to resurrect and rapture His people is the very same coming of the Lord that destroys the antichrist.
There it is, in black and white: His coming for His Church at the Resurrection/Rapture, destroys the antichrist by the brightness of His coming.
If you want to teach people that the antichrist is destroyed before the tribulation, then that would be an interesting teaching.
Please count me in on that one.
JLB
That's where He is headed when He comes, on the Day of the Lord to gather His people and destroy the wicked.
Here read it for yourself.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.1 Thessalonians 4:17-5:3
The Resurrection/Rapture, the Day of the Lord, and the destruction of the wicked [including the antichrist], are all mentioned right here in 1 Thessalonians.
Case Closed.
JLB
Further context on the Day of the Lord and His coming, whereby His feet shall stand on the mount of Olives.
Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5
B
Brother Mike
Guest
for then they say Peace and Safety, Nothing going on, and BAM, according to you Jesus comes. You skipped the seven angels who sound a trumpet like sound, you skipped the vials and you skipped the seals.
Nobody is thinking peace and safety when Jesus comes to gather for the last battle in rev 19. Nobody.
Skip the events if you like. However.
Case closed .
B
Brother Mike
Guest
We have and you always say the same thing... which is: "we have been through this", while never reading what is plainly written
Notice that the same coming by which the Lord gathers His people at the resurrection/rapture, is also the same coming that He destroys the antichrist.
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.2 Thessalonians 2:1-8
The coming of the Lord to resurrect and rapture His people is the very same coming of the Lord that destroys the antichrist.
There it is, in black and white: His coming for His Church at the Resurrection/Rapture, destroys the antichrist by the brightness of His coming.
If you want to teach people that the antichrist is destroyed before the tribulation, then that would be an interesting teaching.
Please count me in on that one.
JLB
No................. concerning the gathering together of the unto the Lord Jesus, there must be that departure first, then the son of Perdition is revealed.
Falling away unto the Lord Jesus is first. Departure first. Apostasia first. You forgot what a Greek female noun was again
2Th 2:1 Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to him, we ask you
2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
The body of Jesus must be removed first, before the bad guy comes.
I thought you might have overcome this crazy thinking by now. Greek female nouns can not, and will never speak of their relation to something else, they are female nouns that need defined by the Male noun after or before the article.
We depart first, because the Son of perdition can't be revealed until that happens.
Big win for Mike. boooya.
The sad thing is, your the only one here worthy to defend a post trib doctrine. Oh well.
Be blessed My Brother.
Mike.
I'm shocked to hear your Bible says departure whereas my Bible says rebellion.No................. concerning the gathering together of the unto the Lord Jesus, there must be that departure first, then the son of Perdition is revealed.
Falling away unto the Lord Jesus is first. Departure first. Apostasia first. You forgot what a Greek female noun was again
2Th 2:1 Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to him, we ask you
2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction,
The body of Jesus must be removed first, before the bad guy comes.
I thought you might have overcome this crazy thinking by now. Greek female nouns can not, and will never speak of their relation to something else, they are female nouns that need defined by the Male noun after or before the article.
We depart first, because the Son of perdition can't be revealed until that happens.
Big win for Mike. boooya.
The sad thing is, your the only one here worthy to defend a post trib doctrine. Oh well.
Be blessed My Brother.
Mike.
What a difference.
Totally changes the meaning.
So go ahead, tell me your Bible is right and my Bible is wrong.
I'm expecting this.
Endtime_Survivors
Member
Nope, because the word "pornography" is not found in scripture.
Endtime_Survivors
Member
Thanks Reba. Agreed. I'm hoping we can keep the topic to America's role (whether there be one or not) in prophecy and scriptural evidence for or against that suggestion.
I think references to the eagle are particularly relevant because an eagle is significant in Daniel's vision of Beasts and it represents America in modern day. The eagles wings are "plucked" and 3 "horns" are "subdued", thus allowing the Beast to take control. Imagine what would happen to the UN as a political vehicle if America was destroyed by a bear/dragon alliance supported by "10 kings".
The Bear and dragon are also significant animals in prophecy and also just happen to represent major world powers on the UN security counsel who just happen to oppose American dominance. There also just happen to be 10 rotating members on the US security counsel made up of 2nd and 3rd world powers which have historically been oppressed by the rich west. After all, the world's resources are finite. The more one country takes for themselves, the less there will be for others. Imagine every country in the world trying to live like America. It would be physically impossible. There is a strong monetary, as well as political, incentive to get America out of the way.
There's just too much coincidence between what the prophecy describes and what's actually happening in the world around us for this all to be just coincidence.
The greek word pornea,is.
If you are going there,murder isn't in the bible because it's in hebrew or greek,not English. The Greeks had their version of pornagraphy
R
Runner
Guest
Here is a fairly scholarly article on the "departure" issue from a pre-tribulation Rapture fan: https://www.raptureready.com/featured/ice/TheRapturein2Thessalonians2_3.html. He cites H. Wayne House, who is at least a recognized Bible scholar, for the proposition that the "first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either 'departure' or 'departing.' They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608)." He also says that Tim LaHaye agrees, so as far as the Rapture is concerned that's almost like having Lady Gaga and the Kardashians on your side.
B
Brother Mike
Guest
It's not what the bible says, it's the actual Greek Word.
646apostasía (from 868/aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from575/apó, "away from" and 2476/histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previousstanding." Greek Female Noun
It means to depart or leave from a place once stood. There is nothing in the Greek word from root or anything that means to error or rebellion.
Geneva Bible 1587
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,
Most credible translations will translate it
Fall away
Deflection
Departing
Apostasia "Falling away" or to leave from a place stood is a Greek Female noun.
It's in the family of
apostasion To divorce someone, to seperate from someone.
Apostasia was used one other time.
Act 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake (Apostasia) Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
In this case we have the Male noun following and we know they left Moses whom they once stood.
Greek Female nouns do not give the action to themselves or desribe themselves.
Faith is a Greek Female noun, but it can't tell us faith in what, or in who.
Door is a Greek Female noun, but it does not tell us where the door is located or even what door if we know the general location
Wedding is a Greek Female noun, but we don't know who's wedding.
If the word is translated Rebellion, then rebellion from who? We would have to use the Proper Greek Title Son of Perdition that follows after since it's not described in the article first. There would be a rebellion against the son of perdition first.
We know Paul is not talking about the church rebelling. The Lord's church never does that.
Eph_5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Jud_1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
If the Holy Spirit meant rebellion or the english Apostasy, then it would have to be one of the 4 Greek verbs.
parapiptō Fall away, go off the path, to error.
par-ap-ip'-to
From G3844 and G4098; to fall aside, that is, (figuratively) to apostatize: - fall away.
Greek Verb
So, since it's a female noun, there must be a departure from a place once stood by believers at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, then the Son of perdition is revealed to the World whom was kept back until He (Body of Jesus or believers who are anointed) are removed first. Then the Son of perdition will set up in the temple as God and call Himself God.
smaller
Member
Oh no, not another one.
The man of sin has been sitting in the temple of all natural flesh men since Adam.
That "man" is Lucifer. Satan. The temple he sits in is our own sorry hides.
When Jesus returns He will SIT in His temple. That is, OUR BODY. Phil. 3:21
And in order to do so the devil, Satan, and his own must first be revealed and then destroyed.
It doesn't have diddly to do with some brick n mortar job built by man in Israel/Jerusalem where Jesus will "sit" when He returns.
Zechariah 14
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Endtime_Survivors
Member
But pornography isn't, so...
Anyway, it's not my reasoning. I'm trying to give examples in response to the reasoning reba used for the AC thing earlier.
B
Brother Mike
Guest
We are the body of christ, I don't have any devils and we were not given the spirit of fear or anything devil related. I never herd this theory before.
Endtime_Survivors
Member
Dont be picking on me
Spent years under dispensational teaching at least 30 of 'em as an adult..
God had the Scriptures penned the way He wanted then we come along and 'fix' em for Him...
As for fixed, it's not really the words which need fixing, but rather how we interpret them. I think it's like that for all of us. I'm pretty open to alternative interpretations but at least on this issue of the A.C. I think I've got a fairly reasonable explanation as to why it doesn't really matter what title we give to him/it. It's just that the title of "Anti-Christ" (capitals) most accurately encapsulates the spirit of all the other descriptions about him.
If you prefer to refer to him as "little horn" I'd be open to that, but it's a more obscure reference which people are less likely to understand than they would "Anti-Christ".