Did early Christians ever understand grace?

[WIP]

Just a reminder.
10) Discussion of Catholic doctrine is allowed only in the One on One Debate and End Times forums. (ToS 2.2)
RCC content in the End Times forum should relate to End Times beliefs. Do not start new topics elsewhere or sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that may be viewed as ‘Catholic’ in nature.

 

[Eugene]

Today I was hearing by a preacher - salvation is a gift, you dont have to do any thing. Even if you dont read the bible or pray or attend a fellowship still you can make it to heaven. Once you accept Jesus then salvation part is finished and all things done after that are rewards. Even he translates that working out salvation with fear and trembling is nothing but just believing in Christ. Now lets assume that everything he says is true but a question remains in my heart.

Why would early believers have to endure so much persecution? They should have secretly believed
Christ and Escape persecution.

Or is that the early believers didn't understand that their salvation is only by grace?

I read in Rom 6:23 that the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. For the purpose of salvation, exactly what would you add to Jesus’ sacrifice? As to working out our own salvation with fear & trembleing, that is the part of our salvation having to do with learning to overcome the habit and dominion of sin in our lives.

An example of that might best be illustrated by noticing how God had provide Israel with deliverance from Egypt (From the world), but then they were to enter in to and inhabit Canaan.

Exo 3:17 And I have said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt unto the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, unto a land flowing with milk and honey (All their provision needed).

Jos 24:11 And ye went over Jordan, and came unto Jericho: and the men of Jericho fought against you, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Girgashites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; and I delivered them into your hand. Going over Jordan didn’t represent entering heaven, it is the battles against the flesh denying Satan’s influence, and learning to occupy. Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. At this present time we are to grow in grace and truth as a part of becoming full overcomers as we learn to walk in victory through Christ, and that indeed provides reward.

You also ask why early Christians should have to suffer persecution.
2 Tim 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

1 Pet 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

2 Tim 2:12 If we suffer (Endure), we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us.

 

[WIP]

Yup, just as I feared. Now I will make this a warning. Let's stick to the discussion without violating the ToS. Points will be awarded after this.

Thank you.

WIP

 

[veryberry]

Just wanted to know that if I secretly believe in Christ, then will I end up in heaven according to Ephesians 2:8 and if that was so then early Christians should have secretly believed and lived an hostile Christian life without making much noise because it's by Grace we are saved and we have nothing to do but just believe because according to our latest grace preachers Your prayer will not save you then why pray??? Your bible reading will not save you then why bible read??? You worship will not save you then why worship?? your fellowship will not save you then why fellowship?? Can't I just believe in Christ and carry-on my own way till I die. Why should I preach, why should I pray, why I should I attend a fellowship, why should I worship because I'll be me in more trouble doing this because if God thinks that I'm doing all this to impress God then I might lose my salvation.

If that is your choice, then yes, you can believe on Christ and live the way you want and be saved, but you will suffer loss in rewards. Salvation has no merits on us what so ever...The moment you put your trust on Christ's finished work, you are justified and sanctified.

Bible reading will not save you, then why read the bible? God has a purpose that we are to be involved with. Gods adopted us as adult sons and daughter to be about his business, so how are we to be about our Father's business if we don't read the education that has been given to us? How are we to think like our Father, act like our Father, and labour with our Father, if we don't take the time to learn about him and his business?

Prayer will not save you, then why pray? I don't know if you have kids or not, but wouldn't you like your kids to talk to you? You will be going through and education to learn our Father's business and the best place to go when we understand or do not understand is to our Father in prayer. It is our Fathers business and it is only him that can lead us through the sense and sequence of his material.

Worship will not save you, so why worship? God deserves ALL worship. Why would you not want to worship the God who has freely given you all things when you deserve eternal torment for your wicked rebellion?

Fellowship will not save you, then why fellowship? When you think of fellowship, think of how the Body of Christ comes together and works as one unit. There are many offices that only function they way they are to function, when the body comes together(fellowship). Our fellowship here on earth, is kinda like practice of what we will be doing in the heavenly places.

 

[jonahmano]

If that is your choice, then yes, you can believe on Christ and live the way you want and be saved, but you will suffer loss in rewards. Salvation has no merits on us what so ever...The moment you put your trust on Christ's finished work, you are justified and sanctified.

Bible reading will not save you, then why read the bible? God has a purpose that we are to be involved with. Gods adopted us as adult sons and daughter to be about his business, so how are we to be about our Father's business if we don't read the education that has been given to us? How are we to think like our Father, act like our Father, and labour with our Father, if we don't take the time to learn about him and his business?

Prayer will not save you, then why pray? I don't know if you have kids or not, but wouldn't you like your kids to talk to you? You will be going through and education to learn our Father's business and the best place to go when we understand or do not understand is to our Father in prayer. It is our Fathers business and it is only him that can lead us through the sense and sequence of his material.

Worship will not save you, so why worship? God deserves ALL worship. Why would you not want to worship the God who has freely given you all things when you deserve eternal torment for your wicked rebellion?

Fellowship will not save you, then why fellowship? When you think of fellowship, think of how the Body of Christ comes together and works as one unit. There are many offices that only function they way they are to function, when the body comes together(fellowship). Our fellowship here on earth, is kinda like practice of what we will be doing in the heavenly places.

Good evaluation but I'd like to say when it's said it's by grace you are saved then it means that it's by Jesus Christ we are saved. And that grace or unmerited favour is nothing but Christ Jesus becoming a sacrifice for us. Salvation should be understood in totality. Christ wants to present himself a perfect bride and not a bride with some just believing in Christ and doing nothing and some given their everything to Christ. This matter is still debatable. When it's said it's by grace we are saved then it must be understood that it's by grace we established a relationship with God and relationship God is not just believing and going in your own way but it's to be united with God. Revelation specifically speaks about salvation something greater than just believing.

Looking into the totality of the bible we understand that salvation is more than just believing.

 

[veryberry]

Good evaluation but I'd like to say when it's said it's by grace you are saved then it means that it's by Jesus Christ we are saved. And that grace or unmerited favour is nothing but Christ Jesus becoming a sacrifice for us. Salvation should be understood in totality. Christ wants to present himself a perfect bride and not a bride with some just believing in Christ and doing nothing and some given their everything to Christ. This matter is still debatable. When it's said it's by grace we are saved then it must be understood that it's by grace we established a relationship with God and relationship God is not just believing and going in your own way but it's to be united with God. Revelation specifically speaks about salvation something greater than just believing.

Looking into the totality of the bible we understand that salvation is more than just believing.

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that BELIEVETH; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

I sugest that you read Roms chpt 1-5 over and over and over again until it becomes clear how one is justified unto eternal life

I declare unto you the gospel, how that Christ died for our sins, and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day.

 

[Malachi]

Good evaluation but I'd like to say when it's said it's by grace you are saved then it means that it's by Jesus Christ we are saved. And that grace or unmerited favour is nothing but Christ Jesus becoming a sacrifice for us.

While this observation is fundamentally sound, it is not technically accurate. The New Testament generally speaks of grace as "God's grace", and when "God" is mentioned, it is generally God the Father who is in view. So salvation is indeed by God's grace through faith in the Lamb of God -- the Lord Jesus Christ not only dying for us, but shedding His own precious blood for our redemption (1 Peter 1:18-20). The BLOOD OF THE LAMB is an absolute necessity, and it is not interchangeable with "death" (as many suggest). We all must be "washed in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 1:5,6), since "without shedding of blood there is no remission [of sins]" (Hebrews 9:22) .

 

[jonahmano]

While this observation is fundamentally sound, it is not technically accurate. The New Testament generally speaks of grace as "God's grace", and when "God" is mentioned, it is generally God the Father who is in view. So salvation is indeed by God's grace through faith in the Lamb of God -- the Lord Jesus Christ not only dying for us, but shedding His own precious blood for our redemption (1 Peter 1:18-20). The BLOOD OF THE LAMB is an absolute necessity, and it is not interchangeable with "death" (as many suggest). We all must be "washed in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 1:5,6), since "without shedding of blood there is no remission [of sins]" (Hebrews 9:22) .

It's not just shedding the blood but it's also death important. Every animal sacrificed on the altar did die after shedding the blood. When Adam and Eve were naked. Animals were sacrificed to cover them with the cloth of skin, so it's not just about shedding the blood but it's also about the sacrificing of life.

 

[FreeGrace]

It's not just shedding the blood but it's also death important. Every animal sacrificed on the altar did die after shedding the blood. When Adam and Eve were naked. Animals were sacrificed to cover them with the cloth of skin, so it's not just about shedding the blood but it's also about the sacrificing of life.

I believe that the term "blood" refers to Christ's death. Not just bleeding. One more point: It was Christ's spiritual death, not physical death, that atoned for sins and propitiated the Father.

We know this for 2 reasons. First, Jesus said "it is finished" before He died physically. If His physical death was the issue, He spoke too soon. Second, while on the cross, Jesus said "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?" This indicates total separation from the Father, which is spiritual death.

 

[Malachi]

I believe that the term "blood" refers to Christ's death. Not just bleeding. One more point: It was Christ's spiritual death, not physical death, that atoned for sins and propitiated the Father.

Sorry, but the above statement does not correspond to what the Bible teaches and reveals. If blood referred only to death, then there would be no need to sprinkle blood on the Mercy Seat, neither would there be need for Christ to enter into the heavenly sanctuary with His own blood (Hebrews 9:11-28). The word "blood" occurs in this passage ELEVEN TIMES, therefore it matters tremendously to God, since "the life of the flesh [body] is in the blood". Thus is becomes "the Blood of the Covenant" in both the Old and New Covenants.

Also, it is incorrect to state that it was only Christ's spiritual death that atoned for our sins. A careful study of Isaiah chapter 53 will reveal that it was (1) His intense and unimaginable sufferings (physical, emotional, and spiritual) + (2) His physical death + (3) His spiritual death (the offering up of His soul) which were all involved in the work of redemption. Christ - the Lamb of God -- was a fulfillment of ALL the various sacrifices of the OT, as well as the Passover lamb. And it was the BLOOD of the Passover lamb which prevented God's judgment from coming upon the Israelite households (Exodus 12:12,13). It is the blood of Christ applied to your soul that keeps you and me from Hell.

It is sad indeed that Christians today do not fully appreciate or understand the significance of the shedding of Christ's blood for our redemption. But "without the shedding of BLOOD there is no remission" (Heb 9:22).

 

[FreeGrace]

Sorry, but the above statement does not correspond to what the Bible teaches and reveals. If blood referred only to death, then there would be no need to sprinkle blood on the Mercy Seat, neither would there be need for Christ to enter into the heavenly sanctuary with His own blood (Hebrews 9:11-28).

I don't know what you mean by "blood referred only to death". When the Bible speaks of the "Blood of Christ", it is referring to His time on the cross, paying the penalty for mankind's sin. As to your comment about Jesus taking His blood into the heavenly sanctuary, let's look at what the verse actually says.

Heb 9:12 - and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. NASB

Please note that Scripture doesn't say "WITH His own blood" as you have assumed, but "THROUGH His own blood". iow, it was THROUGH His death on the cross that He entered the heavenly sanctuary. There is NO value in His literal physical blood. All value was in His payment for sin on the cross, which is what "blood of Christ" refers to.

Also, it is incorrect to state that it was only Christ's spiritual death that atoned for our sins. A careful study of Isaiah chapter 53 will reveal that it was (1) His intense and unimaginable sufferings (physical, emotional, and spiritual) + (2) His physical death + (3) His spiritual death (the offering up of His soul) which were all involved in the work of redemption.

[
Isaiah described all that He went through, yes. But it was His death that paid the penalty, not the whippings, beatings, etc.

And, again, His physical death was NOT relevant, as I proved, by His own words in John 19:31 in the Greek word "tetelestai", which literally means "paid in full", and translated "it is finished". If His physical death were involved, He spoke too soon.

 

[Malachi]

Please note that Scripture doesn't say "WITH His own blood" as you have assumed

Here's what is written (Heb 9:12) in the Greek Textus Receptus (Stephen's 1550 ed): οὐδὲ δι' αἵματος τράγων καὶ μόσχων διὰ δὲ τοῦ ἰδίου αἵματος εἰσῆλθεν ἐφάπαξ εἰς τὰ ἅγια αἰωνίαν λύτρωσιν εὑράμενος which is literally translated by Berry as "Nor by the blood of goats and calves, BUT BY [WITH] HIS OWN BLOOD entered once for all into the holies eternal redemption having found". Although the word "by" is used for both bloods, it is evident that is means "with", since Hebrews 9:7 says (KJV): "But into the second [holiest place] went the high priest alone once every year, NOT WITHOUT BLOOD, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people". "Not without" means "with". Neither the Hebrew high priest nor Christ could enter through blood as though there was a bloody curtain through which they passed!

There is NO value in His literal physical blood.

Shame on you for making such a statement in the light of Scripture, and for misleading those who may be seeking the truth. The above Scripture gives the lie to your statement.

But it was His death that paid the penalty, not the whippings, beatings, etc.

Shame on you for making this statement also. "For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:...Who his own self bore our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed (1 Pet 2:21-24). Did you notice the bolded words? They give the lie to your statement.

And, again, His physical death was NOT relevant,

Once again, shame on you for misrepresenting Gospel truth. Isaiah 53 says:
7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

 

[FreeGrace]

Here's what is written (Heb 9:12) in the Greek Textus Receptus (Stephen's 1550 ed): οὐδὲ δι' αἵματος τράγων καὶ μόσχων διὰ δὲ τοῦ ἰδίου αἵματος εἰσῆλθεν ἐφάπαξ εἰς τὰ ἅγια αἰωνίαν λύτρωσιν εὑράμενος which is literally translated by Berry as "Nor by the blood of goats and calves, BUT BY [WITH] HIS OWN BLOOD entered once for all into the holies eternal redemption having found". Although the word "by" is used for both bloods, it is evident that is means "with", since Hebrews 9:7 says (KJV): "But into the second [holiest place] went the high priest alone once every year, NOT WITHOUT BLOOD, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people". "Not without" means "with". Neither the Hebrew high priest nor Christ could enter through blood as though there was a bloody curtain through which they passed!

First, let's not literally compare what human priests did with what Christ did. They used animal blood as a type, or to demonstrate a principle. Second, instead of relying on how anyone translates the word in Heb 9:12, let's consider what the actual Greek word means. The word is 'dia', and means "through", and is accompanied by the word 'de', which is a conjunctive participle which may be rendered "but/on the other hand/and/also/now/etc". So, literally, "dia plus de" is "but through". Not "with". This verse does not support your claim that Jesus carried His own blood to heaven. I believe that is RCC doctrine.

I said this:
But it was His death that paid the penalty, not the whippings, beatings, etc.

Shame on you for making such a statement in the light of Scripture, and for misleading those who may be seeking the truth. The above Scripture gives the lie to your statement.

There is nothing in Isa 53 that informs us that He was bearing our sin during any of the pre-cross torture. Yes, He was tortured for us. That was part of the Roman system of execution. But I asked for any verse that tells us that He was bearing our sin any time pre-cross, and Isaiah doesn't say that.

Shame on you for making this statement also. "For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:...Who his own self bore our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed (1 Pet 2:21-24). Did you notice the bolded words? They give the lie to your statement.

The lie would be found in your own statement, and btw, thanks for quoting Scripture that supports my view, that Christ "bore our sins in His own body ON THE TREE". That's WHEN He bore our sins, while on the cross, NOT before He was put on the cross.

The Father didn't forsake Him UNTIL He was on the cross.

So, shame on any view other than the Biblical view.

Once again, shame on you for misrepresenting Gospel truth. Isaiah 53 says:
7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Yet, again, nothing in this chapter tells us that He was bearing our sin before He was put on the cross. And we KNOW that the Father didn't forsake Him UNTIL He was on the cross.

Shame on any view contrary to Scripture.[/QUOTE]