Did God Cause the Fall?

[Benoni]

Let me give you now a Scripture that shows the hand of God in this and the extensive scope of both the departure from, and the returning unto, God. I quote from Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men." You could never read this word "return" here, if you had not first read that man had been "turned" away to destruction. In this passage the word "destruction" has this meaning in the original: a complete collapse, crumbling man to a contrite condition.

Here is the picture: For the magnificent purpose God had in mind He made all the provision necessary before the foundation of the world.
He made provision for a Lamb to be slain (Rev. 13:8).
He made provision for a company of people to be chosen in Christ, to be holy and without blame before Him in love, as a firstfruit of His redemption in the earth (Eph. 1:45,10).
Then He brought into Eden a poisonous serpent, a murderer, a MANSLAYER (Gen. 3: 1).
Having prepared all this HE THEN BROUGHT MAN INTO THE GARDEN. Having brought man into the Garden, GOD PUT HIM INTO THE PATHWAY OF A COMPLETE COLLAPSE. It was God who turned man to destruction, set him on this downward course, sent him into outer darkness, and made him subject to vanity.

God our Father has never once blamed man for the fall, but takes the responsibility for it Himself when He says, "For the creation was subjected to frailty - to futility, condemned to frustration - not because of some intentional fault on its part , BUT BY THE WILL OF HIM WHO SO SUBJECTED IT. YET WITH THE HOPE that creation itself WILL BE SET FREE from its bondage to decay and corruption and gain an entrance into the glorious freedom of God's children" (Rom. 8:20-21, Amplified). Man did not volunteer for this time of travail, but the plan of God included this process, so God turned man into this route, this experience, and it will also be the sovereign work of a sovereign God who shall BRING BACK INTO HIMSELF the whole of His creation.

After turning man to destruction God then says, "RETURN TO ME, children of men." In verse four of Psalm ninety, the writer makes the statement that in God's sight a thousand years is as a day when it is passed. But in verse thirteen the Psalmist exclaims, "Return, O LORD, HOW LONG?" In the beginning of the Psalm the writer is joyful in the knowledge that though the Lord has turned man to destruction, yet God has also given the command to return, and what if it does take a thousand years or more, it is but a day in God's sight. But by the time the writer reaches the position of the thirteenth verse, he begins to cry out, saying, "O Lord, HOW LONG is all this going to take? HOW LONG before our full return to You?" A thousand years had become an unbearably long time. Surely this is the cry from the hearts of men today! This is the crying, groaning, and travailing we find the creation passing through in the eighth chapter of Romans, waiting for the manifestation of the Sons of God.

Romans 8:20 (NLT) Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.

(NLV) 20 Everything that has been made in the world is weak. It is not that the world wanted it to be that way. God allowed it to be that way. Yet there is hope. 21 Everything that has been made in the world will be set free from the power that can destroy. These will become free just as the children of God become free.

(NASB) 20For the creation (A)was subjected to (B)futility, not willingly, but (C)because of Him who subjected it, [a]in hope 21that (D)the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

MSG) 8-21 That's why I don't think there's any comparison between the present hard times and the coming good times. The created world itself can hardly wait for what's coming next. Everything in creation is being more or less held back. God reins it in until both creation and all the creatures are ready and can be released at the same moment into the glorious times ahead. Meanwhile, the joyful anticipation deepens.


(NLV) 20 Everything that has been made in the world is weak. It is not that the world wanted it to be that way. God allowed it to be that way. Yet there is hope. 21 Everything that has been made in the world will be set free from the power that can destroy. These will become free just as the children of God become free.


(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

 

[follower of Christ]

It was inevitable that this error would come up in one of your posts sooner or later.
Hows beloved57 doing anyway ?


Romans 8:20

Romans 8:20 is one of those passages that there is a lot of disagreement upon by those who ARE scholars of scripture and of Greek.
It is absolutely not a good idea to found a whole doctrine upon in order to put the blame of OUR choice to sin on God.

I spent some time looking at it again and the disagreement of scholars is amazing...if men who DO know Greek and spend their whole lives studying Gods word cannot agree on what this tiny verse means exactly (there seems to be some disagreement on how the greek is to even be rendered into english exactly), then its is VERY dangerous to ignore verses like this one;

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them. Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

..that CLEARLY says that GOD is not responsible for OUR sin.

To run to a verse that may not even actually SAY what one wants it to say and then reject something that has NO other intent to but to purposefully convey ONE intent that GOD ISNT making us sin, is fairly dangerous, in my opinion.

As far as I have seen and understood it Romans 8:20 is a SENTENCE upon man...entirely against mans will he was subjected to this sentence that came about because of his DECISION to sin against God.

When man sinned against God did man, of his OWN WILL, WANT to be subjected to this 'futility' ?
That would make us insane as well as sinners.
There is NOTHING in Romans 8:20 that nullifies James 1:13-15, Im afraid. And it is a foolhardy venture to try to make that the case.

Romans 8:20 DOESNT say God makes men sin and is fairly uncertain as to its EXACT intent....James 1:13-15 CLEARLY presents that God does NOT do so.


Here are some words of men who know the greek language, since I dont (and I doubt others here do either).

Rom 8:20
Was subjected (hupetagē). Second aorist passive indicative of hupatassŠ(cf. Rom_8:7).
To vanity (tēi mataiotēti). Dative case. Rare and late word, common in lxx. From mataios, empty, vain. Eph_4:17; 2Pe_2:18.
Not of its own will (ouch hekousa). Common adjective, in N.T. only here and 1Co_9:27. It was due to the effect of man’s sin.
But by reason of him (alla dia ton). Because of God.
In hope that (Ephesians' helpidi hoti). Note the form helpidi rather than the usual elpidi and so Ephesians'. Hoti can be causal “because†instead of declarative “that.â€Â\
Vincent WORD studies

2.0
Cause and effect.

WHEN God CREATED He called creation GOOD....not 'corrupt'.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

The WHOLE creation which WAS GOOD in the beginning now has been affected by Adams transgression...

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
(Romans 8:20-22 KJV)

ALL creation has been subjected to futility and corruption, which WAS NOT said about it in the beginning when it WAS 'good'.

It was not 'corrupted' by God in the beginning as some false doctrines profess.
It happened when Adam chose to sin and thus caused himself and creation to be subjected TO this punishment.
Creation could NOT be 'good' and 'corrupt' at the same time.
The change happened when Adam sinned and God pronounced judgment on man..

.

 

[follower of Christ]

a related issue of 'hyper' predestination...aka the 'god made me do it' fallacy...



Hyper Predestination
"God made me do it"
By Wm Tipton

You've heard the old line that 'the devil made me do it', I’m sure, but we all know that is just silliness, the devil cant 'make' us do anything.
This group I like to call "hyper predestinationists" has been around for a while, but is merely a sub-sect of the faith, thankfully.
Don’t mistake them for five point Calvinists who simply take predestination a bit too far. This particular group has removed all responsibility for their own sin from themselves, and instead of placing it where it might belong, on our sin nature, they put the guilt for OUR sin and disobedience right at Gods feet.

Simply put, this doctrine focuses on Gods sovereignty so greatly as to remove mans responsibility completely for his own sin..."GOD made me do it", so to speak.

What they do is use the fact that God is 'sovereign', a fact that we all acknowledge, to say that God has 'ordained' every act you and I will ever commit. They believe that it was not only Gods 'choice' that Adam sinned and man fell, but that God was in control of the whole thing, meaning that He 'forced' Adam to fall, for all intents and purposes. Now, they wont word it quite as directly as I do.

This group believes, from my understanding, that their spirits 'cannot' sin, thus thier spirits are not accountable for the sins that their flesh commits. If you ask them they will get into long-winded explainations trying to smokescreen what they believe in all of this, but the bottom line is that they believe that 'God made them do it' in regard to sin and disobedience.

What it breaks down to with these is that man has no real 'free will' and is only acting on what God has ordained. Man can do nothing that he isn't being made to by Gods sovereignty, and thus man is not actually guilty of the sin, but God must be as HE would be the one forcing man to commit it. They believe that every act you ever commit, whether good or evil, was set into motion by God Himself, and they will distort whatever scriptures they need to to make this lie seem palatable.

Here are some warning signs to look for, dear brethren.

- God, not man, is the 'source' of sin and evil (because God has supposedly 'ordained' our sin, even our fall) and man has no actual choice or will in the matter. God not only chose for man to fall, but literally is causing YOU to commit every sin you ever have and will. It isn’t our fault that we sin, but God’s.

Only Calvinists are supposedly the 'elect' and only they are 'christian'.

Here is a quote from a forum poster...

“...I am proposing that God purposed and decreed sin and Adams fall ...â€Â

This is the nonsense that these folks push. Instead of God foreknowing that Adam would sin, and therefore working out a plan of salvation for Adam, these folks say GOD is the origin of sin and disobedience. Of course, getting them to say it like that would probably be close to impossible, but it is factual.

And here another:

“God ordained every sin you and I will ever committ. The level of sin you would fall into, if you would be a rapest, a homosexual, a child molestor, or a mureder, God ordained everything, and then blames you for the sin in your life. God is Sovereign over and controls everything and everybody and every place, anything that has the least existence, God created and controls....â€Â

Here is our response to the quote above:

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(Rom 8:29 KJV)

foreknow
G4267
From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
(1Pe 1:1-2 KJV)

foreknowledge
G4268
prog'-no-sis
From G4267; forethought: - foreknowledge.

Those people He FOREKNEW, He PREDESTINATED to be conformed to the image of His Son.
It is a two step proceedure, not one.
God ‘foreknows’ from the foundation of the world, He then predestinates those whom He foreknows to be conformed to the image of His Son. If it were as these folks assert, there is no need in there being the foreknowing step...only predestinating would be mentioned or necessary.

So instead of God foreknowing Adams sin, and then putting a method of salvation into place for those whom He foreknows, hypercalvinists say that GOD is the one who made Adam sin and fall.
One problem with this nonsense, and there are many, is that this means that fully and finally GOD has sinned against Himself thru man. Preposterous.

Heres yet another, more obscene statement by another person of this horrid fallacy;

beloved57:
"God ordains everything, including sin, anyone blaspheming the Holy Ghost, God ordained it, thats simple.. anyone doing anything, God ordained it.."

God’s word also says this;

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them. Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 EMTV)

It seems pretty clear from God’s word that He will not cause anyone to sin or ‘tempt’ with evil. This scripture is very clear that it is WE who sin...who choose to sin...and it is not God who causes us to do so. But of course, expect the hypercalvinist to simply explain this passage away.

This group is quite dangerous in that their views must remove YOUR responsibility for YOUR sin. God would be the one making you sin from eternity past and as such you cannot be held accountable in that as the ‘elect’ you cannot ever go to hell, even if you were to blaspheme His Holy Spirit.
Again, they probably wont admit most of this, but it is only logical based on what they believe.

Currently this writing is just to warn against this heresy so that the brethren might be aware of the danger of this “christian†cult who blames God sovereigness for their own failings and sin.


2.0

This is a comment from a group of 'hyper' predestination types that believe that God ordains and controls EVERY act, thought, breath, etc that every man and woman will ever take part of in their lives.

“God ordained every sin you and I will ever committ. The level of sin you would fall into, if you would be a rapest, a homosexual, a child molestor, or a mureder, God ordained everything, and then blames you for the sin in your life. God is Sovereign over and controls everything and everybody and every place, anything that has the least existence, God created and controls....â€Â

What this also means is that that unforgivable sin we all know about, whether we believe it can be committed by Christians or not isnt the issue, blasphemy of His precious Holy Spirit....would ACTUALLY be GOD doing so THRU man.

God supposedly 'controls' man, meaning his mouth as well as his body and mind, so that we must conclude that, even if they dismiss it somehow, that these heretics are actually claiming that GOD not only rapes children thru man since man doesnt control his own actions and sins, but also BLASPHEMES His own Holy Spirit by ordaining and controlling man to do so.
I actually got one to admit he believes just this..

beloved57:
"God ordains everything, including sin, anyone blaspheming the Holy Ghost, God ordained it, thats simple.. anyone doing anything, God ordained it.."

That particular person lays out very clearly what this error believes

beloved57:
"You dont have a freewill, in fact your a robot, a human robot, your whole life has been scripted for you by God.. "

Supposedly man has no will at all to even commit sin. Apparently we can ONLY do what has been 'scripted' for us, therefore GOD is ultimately the one who causes us to sin....'God made me do it"

unbelievable...

 

[Benoni]

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them. Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

(Jas 1:13-15 ) is speaking of man in his fallin state, Roman 8:20 is speaking of the Beginning of God’s plan for the ages as well and the conclusion of that plan..

Both Jesus and Adam were tempted by the devil, one was ordaining to fall... The other ordained to overcome. Nothing happens out sid eof God's total soverign will.

Look at Job it was God who inquired to Satan; it was God who had a hedge to protect Job. It was God who inquired to Satan what about my servant Job.

God was already pleased with Job, but he had a plan that would make Job even better. Job was a perfect man, but his perfection needed to be tested. Job said, "God knoweth the way that I take, and when He hath tried me I shall come forth as gold. For HE performeth the thing that is appointed for me, and many such things are with Him." Job 23:10 & 14. God has prepared a special kind of testing for each individual. In Job 32.13, Elihu said, "God thrusteth Job down, and not man." We can well add, "And not Satan, either!" God takes the full responsibility for every person's fall. These are parts of His ways. All negative forces are as a dog on a leash. They can only do what they are allowed to do by the Hand that holds the leash. The perplexities, the trials, the testings, the pressures and the failures are all God's responsibility and it will all be worked into our good.

God is sovereign over all things be it Satan or the fall. If man fell, the Ultimate responsibility of the fall rest on the creator not the created. In fact if you look at Romans 8:20 it is God who took the blaime for Himself. I clearly agree with (NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

You said†came about because of his DECISION to sin against God. As well as “When man sinned against God did man, of his OWN WILL, But God’s Word declares “But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who mae itâ€Â

 

[Benoni]

a related issue of 'hyper' predestination...aka the 'god made me do it' fallacy...



Hyper Predestination
"God made me do it"
By Wm Tipton

You've heard the old line that 'the devil made me do it', I’m sure, but we all know that is just silliness, the devil cant 'make' us do anything.
This group I like to call "hyper predestinationists" has been around for a while, but is merely a sub-sect of the faith, thankfully.
Don’t mistake them for five point Calvinists who simply take predestination a bit too far. This particular group has removed all responsibility for their own sin from themselves, and instead of placing it where it might belong, on our sin nature, they put the guilt for OUR sin and disobedience right at Gods feet.

Simply put, this doctrine focuses on Gods sovereignty so greatly as to remove mans responsibility completely for his own sin..."GOD made me do it", so to speak.

What they do is use the fact that God is 'sovereign', a fact that we all acknowledge, to say that God has 'ordained' every act you and I will ever commit. They believe that it was not only Gods 'choice' that Adam sinned and man fell, but that God was in control of the whole thing, meaning that He 'forced' Adam to fall, for all intents and purposes. Now, they wont word it quite as directly as I do.

This group believes, from my understanding, that their spirits 'cannot' sin, thus thier spirits are not accountable for the sins that their flesh commits. If you ask them they will get into long-winded explainations trying to smokescreen what they believe in all of this, but the bottom line is that they believe that 'God made them do it' in regard to sin and disobedience.

What it breaks down to with these is that man has no real 'free will' and is only acting on what God has ordained. Man can do nothing that he isn't being made to by Gods sovereignty, and thus man is not actually guilty of the sin, but God must be as HE would be the one forcing man to commit it. They believe that every act you ever commit, whether good or evil, was set into motion by God Himself, and they will distort whatever scriptures they need to to make this lie seem palatable.

Here are some warning signs to look for, dear brethren.

- God, not man, is the 'source' of sin and evil (because God has supposedly 'ordained' our sin, even our fall) and man has no actual choice or will in the matter. God not only chose for man to fall, but literally is causing YOU to commit every sin you ever have and will. It isn’t our fault that we sin, but God’s.

Only Calvinists are supposedly the 'elect' and only they are 'christian'.

Here is a quote from a forum poster...
[quote:ws74jqe8]“...I am proposing that God purposed and decreed sin and Adams fall ...â€Â

This is the nonsense that these folks push. Instead of God foreknowing that Adam would sin, and therefore working out a plan of salvation for Adam, these folks say GOD is the origin of sin and disobedience. Of course, getting them to say it like that would probably be close to impossible, but it is factual.

And here another:

“God ordained every sin you and I will ever committ. The level of sin you would fall into, if you would be a rapest, a homosexual, a child molestor, or a mureder, God ordained everything, and then blames you for the sin in your life. God is Sovereign over and controls everything and everybody and every place, anything that has the least existence, God created and controls....â€Â

Here is our response to the quote above:

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(Rom 8:29 KJV)

foreknow
G4267
From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
(1Pe 1:1-2 KJV)

foreknowledge
G4268
prog'-no-sis
From G4267; forethought: - foreknowledge.

Those people He FOREKNEW, He PREDESTINATED to be conformed to the image of His Son.
It is a two step proceedure, not one.
God ‘foreknows’ from the foundation of the world, He then predestinates those whom He foreknows to be conformed to the image of His Son. If it were as these folks assert, there is no need in there being the foreknowing step...only predestinating would be mentioned or necessary.

So instead of God foreknowing Adams sin, and then putting a method of salvation into place for those whom He foreknows, hypercalvinists say that GOD is the one who made Adam sin and fall.
One problem with this nonsense, and there are many, is that this means that fully and finally GOD has sinned against Himself thru man. Preposterous.

Heres yet another, more obscene statement by another person of this horrid fallacy;

beloved57:
"God ordains everything, including sin, anyone blaspheming the Holy Ghost, God ordained it, thats simple.. anyone doing anything, God ordained it.."

God’s word also says this;

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them. Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 EMTV)

It seems pretty clear from God’s word that He will not cause anyone to sin or ‘tempt’ with evil. This scripture is very clear that it is WE who sin...who choose to sin...and it is not God who causes us to do so. But of course, expect the hypercalvinist to simply explain this passage away.

This group is quite dangerous in that their views must remove YOUR responsibility for YOUR sin. God would be the one making you sin from eternity past and as such you cannot be held accountable in that as the ‘elect’ you cannot ever go to hell, even if you were to blaspheme His Holy Spirit.
Again, they probably wont admit most of this, but it is only logical based on what they believe.

Currently this writing is just to warn against this heresy so that the brethren might be aware of the danger of this “christian†cult who blames God sovereigness for their own failings and sin.


2.0

This is a comment from a group of 'hyper' predestination types that believe that God ordains and controls EVERY act, thought, breath, etc that every man and woman will ever take part of in their lives.

“God ordained every sin you and I will ever committ. The level of sin you would fall into, if you would be a rapest, a homosexual, a child molestor, or a mureder, God ordained everything, and then blames you for the sin in your life. God is Sovereign over and controls everything and everybody and every place, anything that has the least existence, God created and controls....â€Â

What this also means is that that unforgivable sin we all know about, whether we believe it can be committed by Christians or not isnt the issue, blasphemy of His precious Holy Spirit....would ACTUALLY be GOD doing so THRU man.

God supposedly 'controls' man, meaning his mouth as well as his body and mind, so that we must conclude that, even if they dismiss it somehow, that these heretics are actually claiming that GOD not only rapes children thru man since man doesnt control his own actions and sins, but also BLASPHEMES His own Holy Spirit by ordaining and controlling man to do so.
I actually got one to admit he believes just this..

beloved57:
"God ordains everything, including sin, anyone blaspheming the Holy Ghost, God ordained it, thats simple.. anyone doing anything, God ordained it.."

That particular person lays out very clearly what this error believes

beloved57:
"You dont have a freewill, in fact your a robot, a human robot, your whole life has been scripted for you by God.. "

Supposedly man has no will at all to even commit sin. Apparently we can ONLY do what has been 'scripted' for us, therefore GOD is ultimately the one who causes us to sin....'God made me do it"

unbelievable...[/quote:ws74jqe8]

First of all what a bunch of HOGWASH..
Man does have a freewill and is responsible for ever sin he commits; God will punish/prune the wicked. Man does not have a freewill or choice to save himself.

 

[Benoni]

Psalm 90
1Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.
2Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
3Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.

(YLT) 3Thou turnest man unto a bruised thing, And sayest, Turn back, ye sons of men

 

[follower of Christ]

(Jas 1:13-15 ) is speaking of man in his fallin state, Roman 8:20 is speaking of the Beginning of God’s plan for the ages as well and the conclusion of that plan..

James PROVES that WE make our own decisions to sin, not God causing us to do so.
Romans 8:20 is a JUDGMENT against us FOR sinning. In NO way does it mean that GOD caused man to choose to sin...sorry.

 

[follower of Christ]

First of all what a bunch of HOGWASH..

Apparently that is the best you could come up with

Man does have a freewill and is responsible for ever sin he commits; God will punish/prune the wicked. Man does not have a freewill or choice to save himself.

God draws, man REACTS to that drawing. Man DOES play a part in his salvation...

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
(Philippians 2:12 KJV)

We DO play a part in salvation, Im afraid.

 

[follower of Christ]

God is sovereign over all things be it Satan or the fall. If man fell, the Ultimate responsibility of the fall rest on the creator not the created.

What nonsense.
So you DO push this 'god made me do it' error, then.
The ULTIMATE responsibility for mans CHOICE to commit sin is on MAN..just as James proves.

In fact if you look at Romans 8:20 it is God who took the blaime for Himself.

No, friend.
What is being put on God there is SUBJECTING sinful man to futility...READ it again.
What man is having put upon him 'unwillingly' is the futility itself...and that came about BECAUSE man CHOSE to sin and thus creation fell as a whole

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
(Romans 8:20 KJV)

You are very clearly distorting ONE confusing verse to push your fallacy that contradicts OTHER CLEAR scriptures such as the James passage.

I clearly agree with (NIRV) Romans 8: 20

Hardly.

The created world was bound to fail. but that was not the result of its own choice.

Sorry but that ISNT what it actually SAYS.
It says that we were subjected to futility agaisnt our will. NO one would WILLINGLY go along with that anymore than Adam would WILLINGLY want to be cast from the garden to spend his life toiling even for food.
Man sinned and Romans 8 is about the PUNISHMENT for that choice to sin...

You said†came about because of his DECISION to sin against God. As well as “When man sinned against God did man, of his OWN WILL, But God’s Word declares “But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made itâ€Â

Sorry but it wasnt Gods desire for His creation to spit in His face.
He knew it would happen, and provided a way of salvation BECAUSE of sin...that doesnt mean that He WANTED man OR Lucifer to defy Him.

 

[follower of Christ]

Cause and effect.
WHEN God CREATED He called creation GOOD....not 'corrupt'.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

The WHOLE creation which WAS GOOD in the beginning now has been affected by Adams transgression...

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
(Romans 8:20-22 KJV)

ALL creation has been subjected to futility and corruption, which WAS NOT said about it in the beginning when it WAS 'good'.

It was not 'corrupted' by God in the beginning as some false doctrines profess.
It happened when Adam chose to sin and thus caused himself and creation to be subjected TO this punishment.
Creation could NOT be 'good' and 'corrupt' at the same time.
The change happened when Adam sinned and God pronounced judgment on man..

.

 

[Benoni]

Sure it was good; but just like Job God wants it better. God wants overcoming son; not puppets on a string. If Adam did not fall then all he would of ever been is a puppet on a string. That why God lowered man from a pure spiritual being created on the sixth day (it was good), then he formed man on the seventh day from the dust of the earth and made him a living soul. Show me where Adam had a choice or freewill; seeing I have shown you contrary? No one has a chose when it comes to salvation or exerting their will over God’s will. How did little Adam have a choice over the complete Devine will of God (show me?) Show me freewill pertaining to Adam’s choice? It is not in scripture.

I showed you in Romans; and you have shown me nothing but your own preconceived bias (no scripture); God’s Word is not as important to you as your bias; that is obvious.

Let me give you now a Scripture that shows the hand of God in this and the extensive scope of both the departure from, and the returning unto, God. I quote from Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men." You could never read this word "return" here, if you had not first read that man had been "turned" away to destruction. In this passage the word "destruction" has this meaning in the original: a complete collapse, crumbling man to a contrite condition.

Here is the picture: For the magnificent purpose God had in mind He made all the provision necessary before the foundation of the world. He made provision for a Lamb to be slain (Rev. 13:8). He made provision for a company of people to be chosen in Christ, to be holy and without blame before Him in love, as a firstfruit of His redemption in the earth (Eph. 1:45,10). Then He brought into Eden a poisonous serpent, a murderer, a MANSLAYER (Gen. 3: 1). Having prepared all this HE THEN BROUGHT MAN INTO THE GARDEN. Having brought man into the Garden, GOD PUT HIM INTO THE PATHWAY OF A COMPLETE COLLAPSE. It was God who turned man to destruction, set him on this downward course, sent him into outer darkness, and made him subject to vanity.

God our Father has never once blamed man for the fall, but takes the responsibility for it Himself when He says, "For the creation was subjected to frailty - to futility, condemned to frustration - not because of some intentional fault on its part , BUT BY THE WILL OF HIM WHO SO SUBJECTED IT. YET WITH THE HOPE that creation itself WILL BE SET FREE from its bondage to decay and corruption and gain an entrance into the glorious freedom of God's children" (Rom. 8:20-21, Amplified). Man did not volunteer for this time of travail, but the plan of God included this process, so God turned man into this route, this experience, and it will also be the sovereign work of a sovereign God who shall BRING BACK INTO HIMSELF the whole of His creation.

Cause and effect.
WHEN God CREATED He called creation GOOD....not 'corrupt'.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

The WHOLE creation which WAS GOOD in the beginning now has been affected by Adams transgression...
[quote:22qhp7u5]For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
(Romans 8:20-22 KJV)

ALL creation has been subjected to futility and corruption, which WAS NOT said about it in the beginning when it WAS 'good'.

It was not 'corrupted' by God in the beginning as some false doctrines profess.
It happened when Adam chose to sin and thus caused himself and creation to be subjected TO this punishment.
Creation could NOT be 'good' and 'corrupt' at the same time.
The change happened when Adam sinned and God pronounced judgment on man..

.[/quote:22qhp7u5]

 

[Benoni]

By the way I appreciate your debating skills you are not a spiritual coward; keep it up.

 

[follower of Christ]

Sure it was good; but just like Job God wants it better.

Thats a nice dodge.
God called creation 'good' in the beginning..not 'corrupt'.
Adam wasnt set up by God as you seem to believe.
Adam chose to sin and so creation was subjected because of that choice.

Show me where Adam had a choice or freewill; seeing I have shown you contrary?

you havent shown me squat except your distortions of a passage that doesnt say what you claim it does.

No one has a chose when it comes to salvation or exerting their will over God’s will.

God allowed Adam to make the choice...as He does with ALL of us.

How did little Adam have a choice over the complete Devine will of God (show me?)

Because God gave Adam free will to CHOOSE, just as He gave Lucifer, and God ALLOWED Adam the freedom TO choose.

Show me freewill pertaining to Adam’s choice? It is not in scripture.

Please
INSTRUCTION by its very nature PRESUMES the ability to CHOOSE.
Without freewill choice is impossible.
Adam had the freedom to CHOOSE to sin or not.

I showed you in Romans; and you have shown me nothing but your own preconceived bias (no scripture); God’s Word is not as important to you as your bias; that is obvious.

No, you presented your perversion of one confusing verse in Romans that not even the best scholars can agree as to its exact intent.
You found a weak verse that you could manipulate into something you want to believe...ie GOD is the source of your choice to sin, thus YOU arent really responsible.
Ive seen this nonsense before..
ARe you the poster 'beloved57' ?

God our Father has never once blamed man for the fall,

What a preposterous statement.
Read Genesis 3, friend...Adam was ACCUSED and JUDGED because of his choice to sin.

but takes the responsibility for it Himself when He says, "For the creation was subjected to frailty - to futility, condemned to frustration - not because of some intentional fault on its part , BUT BY THE WILL OF HIM WHO SO SUBJECTED IT.

Nope. That nonsense is just your own perversion of a verse that no one has been able to decide what the exact intent is.

Like many other false teachers youve created an entire doctrine on one pathetically misunderstood and misrepresented verse.

 

[follower of Christ]

By the way I appreciate your debating skills you are not a spiritual coward; keep it up.

Im glad to see that this is just a game to you.

 

[Benoni]

Thats a nice dodge.
God called creation 'good' in the beginning..not 'corrupt'.
Adam wasnt set up by God as you seem to believe.
Adam chose to sin and so creation was subjected because of that choice.

How clearer can you get:


(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

 

[Benoni]

God allowed Adam to make the choice...as He does with ALL of us.

The religious word freewill; the reason I call it religious word because the word freewill is not in the scripture.

Sure I am the first to admit we have a freewill to sin, to buy a car, get a hair cut. But we did not choose our parents, our country we were born in or or color of skin; nor can we choose to believe in God.

Oh sure you can find the word Freewill in the OT when it comes to the Hebrew Freewill offering; BUT that feast has nothing to do with basic salvation.

It is not a matter of freewill; (we are saved by grace not freewill) but first God has to quicken us....free will is a non scriptural word. God call/calls/draws/drags people which is totally contrary to the religious man made doctrine from Rome. God draws us or if you dig a little harder He drags us; there is NO FREE WILL when you are being drawn or dragged in fact it totally to the contrary.


John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws
(drag Greek) him, and I will raise him up at the last day

1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o); drag

Romans 9: 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over. 18 So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills. 19 You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will? 20 But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and Why have you made me thus? 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?

 

[Benoni]

No, you presented your perversion of one confusing verse in Romans that not even the best scholars can agree as to its exact intent.
You found a weak verse that you could manipulate into something you want to believe...ie GOD is the source of your choice to sin, thus YOU arent really responsible.
Ive seen this nonsense before..

You can spin or assume this anyway you want to, ALL you are giving me is your bias opinion and not one verse to back up your false doctrine. Call it weak; it is God's Word which is 10,000 times more valuable then this empty bias opinion of yours you are so fond of. Show me where God's Word says, not your opinion that Adam had a choice that contradict this verse I quoted you? Show me one verse that we have a choice for salvation seeing I presented you totally to the contrary.

 

[Benoni]

Read Genesis 3, friend...Adam was ACCUSED and JUDGED because of his choice to sin.

Amen for Chapter 3 in Genesis. Without a sinner there would never be a reason for a savior; this was God's plan the curse not little Adam.

God had a savior long before He had a sinner for the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.
1 Peter 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

God took the blaime no matter how much you want to blaime little Adam


Romans 8:20 (NLT) Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.

(NLV) 20 Everything that has been made in the world is weak. It is not that the world wanted it to be that way. God allowed it to be that way. Yet there is hope. 21 Everything that has been made in the world will be set free from the power that can destroy. These will become free just as the children of God become free.

(NASB) 20For the creation (A)was subjected to (B)futility, not willingly, but (C)because of Him who subjected it, [a]in hope 21that (D)the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.


(NLV) 20 Everything that has been made in the world is weak. It is not that the world wanted it to be that way. God allowed it to be that way. Yet there is hope. 21 Everything that has been made in the world will be set free from the power that can destroy. These will become free just as the children of God become free.


(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

How many versions do I need to post to show you it was not Adam's choce it was God.

 

[Benoni]

Im glad to see that this is just a game to you.

No this is not a game; you have a heart for God I can see this; but you are blinded by your doctrines of damnations. I do appriciate your skill and passion for the truth as you see it. So many of God's people are so luke warm and wisswashie. You are NOT a spiritual coward.

 

[Benoni]

I will be out of town for a few days starting Friday morning.