Did God Cause the Fall?

[follower of Christ]

Thats a nice dodge.
God called creation 'good' in the beginning..not 'corrupt'.
Adam wasnt set up by God as you seem to believe.
Adam chose to sin and so creation was subjected because of that choice.

How clearer can you get:

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

Apparently clearer than this perverted version youre using is.
I think you need to find another UNbiased bible translation, friend.

Rom 8:20

(ASV) For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope

(EMTV) For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but on account of Him who subjected it in hope;

(ISV) because the creation was subjected to frustration, though not by its own choice. The one who subjected it did so in the hope

(KJV) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

(LITV) For the creation was not willingly subjected to vanity, but through Him subjecting it, on hope;

(MKJV) For the creation was not willingly subjected to vanity, but because of Him who subjected it on hope

(YLT) for to vanity was the creation made subject--not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it --in hope,

The ONLY thing shown in that verse, friend, is that the creation was not willingly subjected.
Again, Adam CERTAINLY did not want to WILLINGLY be cast out of the garden even tho he had sinned, nor does creation WANT to be in its present condition.
Nothing in this verse shows anything that you claim.

As I said, youve ripped ONE verse out of its context and twisted it to suit your fallacy.
This isnt the way true students of scripture operate.

 

[follower of Christ]

The religious word freewill; the reason I call it religious word because the word freewill is not in the scripture.

Whew.
Its a wonder that some learn anything with this sort of illogic ruling them.
The WORD 'freewill' doesnt have to BE in the text anymore than 'Trinity' has to.
The CONCEPT of freewill is PROVEN in EVERY single instruction in the bible.
The moment INSTRUCTION is given the FREEWILL to CHOOSE is implied by that instruction.
That you cannot seem to grasp this fact is astounding to say the least...tho it explains a lot about the other points that your doctrine seems to botch horribley.

Sure I am the first to admit we have a freewill to sin, to buy a car, get a hair cut. But we did not choose our parents, our country we were born in or or color of skin; nor can we choose to believe in God.

Lame...very lame.
So some things ARENT ours to choose.
That has NOTHING to do with the things we CAN decide for ourselves...such as committing sin...which is THE issue that got us and creation where they are presently.
Who my mother and father is and the color of my skin didnt cause man to fall. The DECISION to commit sin did.

Romans 9: 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over. 18 So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills. 19 You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will? 20 But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and Why have you made me thus? 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?

Pharoah is ONE man and ONE case where Gods absolutely used His sovereignty to cause His will to be done.
That has NOTHING to do with the billions of others who have existed thru history.
This is just one more instance of your taking a verse entirely out of context.
Romans 9 ISNT about individual predestination.
Romans 9 is about what has happened to Israel.
When you figure that out then the issue with pharoah become meaningless as far as individual predestination is concerned.

 

[Benoni]

When are you going to start backing this garbage with God's Word. You keep attacking what I say but never back your claims with God's Word. I post God's Word and you spin it? How about spinning it with God's word seeing you think you are so right.

 

[follower of Christ]

Amen for Chapter 3 in Genesis. Without a sinner there would never be a reason for a savior; this was God's plan the curse not little Adam.

Gods plan came about BECAUSE He foresaw Adams choice leading him to sin.

God had a savior long before He had a sinner for the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

see above...

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

see above...

God took the blaime no matter how much you want to blaime little Adam

I think its 'blame' first of all.
And secondly, no God didnt.
Only by perverting the intent...ADDING TO Romans 8:20, do you even come to this absurd conclusion.

Romans 8:20 (NLT) Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.

see above...

(NLV) 20 Everything that has been made in the world is weak. It is not that the world wanted it to be that way. God allowed it to be that way. Yet there is hope. 21 Everything that has been made in the world will be set free from the power that can destroy. These will become free just as the children of God become free.

And there you go.
The world didnt WANT for things to go sour like they did...but God ALLOWED it because man has CHOSEN to follow the path of sin.
Its astounding that in your view that even if Adam HAD obeyed God that seemingly God would have punished him and creation anyway.
What a pathetic spiteful god that must be.

How many versions do I need to post to show you it was not Adam's choce it was God.

It doesnt SAY that GOD subjected Adam, first of all....YOU add that to suit your whims.
Men like John Gill say that SATAN was the one who subjected Adam....so there is MUCH disagreement about precisely what this passage is trying to show....one more reason why you have a lot of freedom to try to distort it as you do.

Secondly, What wasnt Adams choice was to be SUBJECTED to vanity. And this subjection is a RESULT of Adams sin....part of things no longer being GOOD as they WERE when God created..

 

[follower of Christ]

Again for the readers if no one else can understand.....


Cause and effect.
WHEN God CREATED He called creation GOOD....not 'corrupt'.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

The WHOLE creation which WAS GOOD in the beginning now has been affected by Adams transgression...

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
(Romans 8:20-22 KJV)

ALL creation has been subjected to futility and corruption, which WAS NOT said about it in the beginning when it WAS 'good'.

It was not 'corrupted' by God in the beginning as some false doctrines profess.
It happened when Adam chose to sin and thus caused himself and creation to be subjected TO this punishment.
Creation could NOT be 'good' and 'corrupt' at the same time.
The change happened when Adam sinned and God pronounced judgment on man..

.

 

[Benoni]

Amen for Chapter 3 in Genesis. Without a sinner there would never be a reason for a savior; this was God's plan the curse not little Adam.

Gods plan came about BECAUSE He foresaw Adams choice leading him to sin.

God had a savior long before He had a sinner for the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

see above...
[quote:259xwteq]Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

see above...

God took the blaime no matter how much you want to blaime little Adam

I think its 'blame' first of all.
And secondly, no God didnt.
Only by perverting the intent...ADDING TO Romans 8:20, do you even come to this absurd conclusion.

Romans 8:20 (NLT) Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.

see above...

(NLV) 20 Everything that has been made in the world is weak. It is not that the world wanted it to be that way. God allowed it to be that way. Yet there is hope. 21 Everything that has been made in the world will be set free from the power that can destroy. These will become free just as the children of God become free.

And there you go.
The world didnt WANT for things to go sour like they did...but God ALLOWED it because man has CHOSEN to follow the path of sin.
Its astounding that in your view that even if Adam HAD obeyed God that seemingly God would have punished him and creation anyway.
What a pathetic spiteful god that must be.

How many versions do I need to post to show you it was not Adam's choce it was God.

It doesnt SAY that GOD subjected Adam, first of all....YOU add that to suit your whims.
Men like John Gill say that SATAN was the one who subjected Adam....so there is MUCH disagreement about precisely what this passage is trying to show....one more reason why you have a lot of freedom to try to distort it as you do.

Secondly, What wasnt Adams choice was to be SUBJECTED to vanity. And this subjection is a RESULT of Adams sin....part of things no longer being GOOD as they WERE when God created..[/quote:259xwteq]
Spin not one verse just opinion???

 

[follower of Christ]

When are you going to start backing this garbage with God's Word.

I have....and with Romans 8:20 by showing what it DOESNT say that YOU claim it does.
It DOESNT say that GOD subjected and if anything the NEXT verse would make it seem like GOD is the one FREEING creation.
If anyone had it subjected to futility it would be Satan, not God who frees men from slavery.
God allowed this subjection because of mans CHOICE to sin.
Its VERY characteristic of God to turn men over to sin when they want it.

You keep attacking what I say but never back your claims with God's Word. I post God's Word and you spin it? How about spinning it with God's word seeing you think you are so right.

You posted your distortion of Gods word, yes....

 

[follower of Christ]

Spin not one verse just opinion???

Coming from someone whose whole doctrine hinges on one misunderstood and misrepresented verse this would tend to seem a bit meaningless.

 

[Benoni]

Again for the readers if no one else can understand.....


Cause and effect.
WHEN God CREATED He called creation GOOD....not 'corrupt'.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

The WHOLE creation which WAS GOOD in the beginning now has been affected by Adams transgression...
[quote:nqrbd3bq]For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
(Romans 8:20-22 KJV)

ALL creation has been subjected to futility and corruption, which WAS NOT said about it in the beginning when it WAS 'good'.

It was not 'corrupted' by God in the beginning as some false doctrines profess.
It happened when Adam chose to sin and thus caused himself and creation to be subjected TO this punishment.
Creation could NOT be 'good' and 'corrupt' at the same time.
The change happened when Adam sinned and God pronounced judgment on man..

.[/quote:nqrbd3bq]

More spin not one verse. Where is your verse that Adam had a choice? Where is your verse that we have a choice or freewill?

 

[Benoni]

When are you going to start backing this garbage with God's Word.

I have....and with Romans 8:20 by showing what it DOESNT say that YOU claim it does.
It DOESNT say that GOD subjected and if anything the NEXT verse would make it seem like GOD is the one FREEING creation.
If anyone had it subjected to futility it would be Satan, not God who frees men from slavery.

You keep attacking what I say but never back your claims with God's Word. I post God's Word and you spin it? How about spinning it with God's word seeing you think you are so right.

You posted your distortion of Gods word, yes....

You have given your opioion. I gave you a verse of God Word; my verse holds up 10,000 of your spining opinion.

 

[follower of Christ]

More spin not one verse. Where is your verse that Adam had a choice? Where is your verse that we have a choice or freewill?

God told Adam not to eat of a certain tree.
Adam CHOSE to ignore that instruction.
Its astounding that some need to be spoonfed this greatly, brother.

Instruction PRESUMES the ability to CHOOSE to obey or disobey...ie FREE WILL>
Is it THAT complex a concept ?

 

[follower of Christ]

You have given your opioion. I gave you a verse of God Word; my verse holds up 10,000 of your spining opinion.

You mean that verse that doesnt say what you claim it says ?
Romans 8:20 is the EFFECT of mans CHOICE to sin.

Again

Cause and effect.
WHEN God CREATED He called creation GOOD....not 'corrupt'.
[quote:3nqben2i]Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

The WHOLE creation which WAS GOOD in the beginning now has been affected by Adams transgression...

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
(Romans 8:20-22 KJV)

ALL creation has been subjected to futility and corruption, which WAS NOT said about it in the beginning when it WAS 'good'.

It was not 'corrupted' by God in the beginning as some false doctrines profess.
It happened when Adam chose to sin and thus caused himself and creation to be subjected TO this punishment.
Creation could NOT be 'good' and 'corrupt' at the same time.
The change happened when Adam sinned and God pronounced judgment on man..

.[/quote:3nqben2i]

 

[Benoni]

More spin not one verse. Where is your verse that Adam had a choice? Where is your verse that we have a choice or freewill?

God told Adam not to eat of a certain tree.
Adam CHOSE to ignore that instruction.
Its astounding that some need to be spoonfed this greatly, brother.

Instruction PRESUMES the ability to CHOOSE to obey or disobey.
Is it THAT complex a concept ?

Nonsense. I give you Romans 8 and you give me your opinion based on your logic; sorry this holds no water; this is totally contrary to God's Word no matter how you spin it.

Yes so what, he little Adam ate of a tree, yes he disobeded God (BUT HE HAD NO CHOICE) Adam ate of the tree but according to God's Word not your opinion, "But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it" What do you base this false assumption on?

You argue this is weak. but at least it is God's Word not your opinion.

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

 

[Benoni]

You have given your opioion. I gave you a verse of God Word; my verse holds up 10,000 of your spining opinion.

You mean that verse that doesnt say what you claim it says ?
Romans 8:20 is the EFFECT of mans CHOICE to sin.

Again

Cause and effect.
WHEN God CREATED He called creation GOOD....not 'corrupt'.
[quote:384itgqp]Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

The WHOLE creation which WAS GOOD in the beginning now has been affected by Adams transgression...
[quote:384itgqp]For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
(Romans 8:20-22 KJV)

ALL creation has been subjected to futility and corruption, which WAS NOT said about it in the beginning when it WAS 'good'.

It was not 'corrupted' by God in the beginning as some false doctrines profess.
It happened when Adam chose to sin and thus caused himself and creation to be subjected TO this punishment.
Creation could NOT be 'good' and 'corrupt' at the same time.
The change happened when Adam sinned and God pronounced judgment on man..

.[/quote:384itgqp][/quote:384itgqp]

It is God's Word... All I get is spin from you. Come on Bible Scholar I am begging you to show me God's Word not this spin, spin spin.

 

[Benoni]

I really want to see some verses on freewill, Adam having a freewill. I mean your doctrines of damnations depend on these verse where are they?

 

[follower of Christ]

Nonsense. I give you Romans 8 and you give me your opinion based on your logic; sorry this holds no water; this is totally contrary to God's Word no matter how you spin it.

All you gave me was a terribly misunderstood verse that you twisted into saying something it DOESNT say.
PROVE to me that creation was subjected BEFORE Adams sin...
You CANT and the passage doesnt SAY that it was.

Genesis, however, says that God called His creation GOOD before the fall.
Hardly sound like it was 'corrupt' as Romans shows there in that passage.

Yes so what, he little Adam ate of a tree, yes he disobeded God (BUT HE HAD NO CHOICE) Adam ate of the tree but according to God's Word not your opinion, "But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it" What do you base this false assumption on?

Sorry but I see nothing in Genesis or elsewhere that SAYS 'God MADE Adam sin'.

You argue this is weak. but at least it is God's Word not your opinion.

Only your distortion of His word...

 

[follower of Christ]

I really want to see some verses on freewill, Adam having a freewill. I mean your doctrines of damnations depend on these verse where are they?

Instruction is ALL thru the bible, friend.
I realize this may be a bit too deep but again INSTRUCTION PRESUMES the ABILITY to DECIDE to obey or disobey...FREE WILL.

 

[follower of Christ]

It is God's Word... All I get is spin from you. Come on Bible Scholar I am begging you to show me God's Word not this spin, spin spin.

Again

Cause and effect.
WHEN God CREATED He called creation GOOD....not 'corrupt'.
[quote:i7dmp4gf]Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

The WHOLE creation which WAS GOOD in the beginning now has been affected by Adams transgression...

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
(Romans 8:20-22 KJV)

ALL creation has been subjected to futility and corruption, which WAS NOT said about it in the beginning when it WAS 'good'.

It was not 'corrupted' by God in the beginning as some false doctrines profess.
It happened when Adam chose to sin and thus caused himself and creation to be subjected TO this punishment.
Creation could NOT be 'good' and 'corrupt' at the same time.
The change happened when Adam sinned and God pronounced judgment on man..

.[/quote:i7dmp4gf]

 

[Benoni]

Really. I think you just lost this debate.

It is God's Word... All I get is spin from you. Come on Bible Scholar I am begging you to show me God's Word not this spin, spin spin.

 

[Bubba]

Follower... wrote:
“Pharoah is ONE man and ONE case where Gods absolutely used His sovereignty to cause His will to be done.
That has NOTHING to do with the billions of others who have existed thru history.
This is just one more instance of your taking a verse entirely out of context.
Romans 9 ISNT about individual predestination.
Romans 9 is about what has happened to Israel.
When you figure that out then the issue with pharoah become meaningless as far as individual predestination is concerned.â€Â

Very specific individuals are spoken of in the beginning of Romans 9; one who is the true seed of Israel, the other not, as stated in verses 11 through 14, though both came from the same earthly father and mother:
“for they being not yet born, neither having done anything good or evil, that the purpose of God, according to choice, might remain; not of works, but of Him who is calling,) it was said to her --
`The greater shall serve the less;' according as it hath been written, `Jacob I did love, and Esau I did hate.'
What, then, shall we say? unrighteousness [is] with God? let it not be!â€Â

Paul already assume that their would be people as yourself who would object to this sovereign choice of God, thus verses 15 through 23:
“for to Moses He saith, `I will do kindness to whom I do kindness, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion;'
so, then -- not of him who is willing, nor of him who is running, but of God who is doing kindness:
for the Writing saith to Pharaoh -- `For this very thing I did raise thee up, that I might shew in thee My power, and that My name might be declared in all the land;'
so, then, to whom He willeth, He doth kindness, and to whom He willeth, He doth harden.
Thou wilt say, then, to me, `Why yet doth He find fault? for His counsel who hath resisted?'
nay, but, O man, who art thou that art answering again to God? shall the thing formed say to Him who did form [it], Why me didst thou make thus?
hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour?
And if God, willing to shew the wrath and to make known His power, did endure, in much long suffering, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction,
and that He might make known the riches of His glory on vessels of kindness, that He before prepared for glory, whom also He did call -- us –“

Yet, the “coup de grace†is the 24th verse that "blows out of the water"this notion that God is only speaking about the nation of Israel:
“...not only out of Jews, but also ou of nationsâ€Â
Grace, Bubba