Did God Cause the Fall?

[follower of Christ]

OK my dear little Pelagian friend,

no, I am a follower of Jesus Christ who simply believes what His word says.
If someone else agrees with what Ive concluded in MY studies, that isnt my problem.
I am a believer....nothing more, nothing less.

let me clarify....

Id rather you stick to the TOPIC instead of running on with irrelevance...if you dont mind.

However, I know most non-Calvinists do not know the difference between Calvinists like me, and Hyper-Calvinist.

...or care.

I read the rest of your post, but recognize that that you are failing to grasp some basic concepts, things like regeneration, the old man, baptism with Christ, etc.

Please.
Every false teacher out there uses this same garbage line. Be original...come up with your own material.

You do not understand why verse 13 is an exhortation to believers, and why this is different then the slavery to sin of the unregenerate. To actually get you to look at a text and understand these concepts seems too much work, or more like an impossible task.

The ENTIRE bible is written TO followers of God. So...you know...get a clue...I have.

Also, I see obvious dangers in any reply to you for this reason...

Oh brother...having a revelation, are we ?

I think your extreme passion comes from equivocating your own views with the views of Paul.

I can read...and after over 7000 hours of bible study in this decade alone, I think Ive got a pretty good handle on things ;)

Once you make that equivocation, anyone questioning your thoughts on the text is questioning Paul.

You mean once we figure out what is being said overall we then refuse to be tossed about by every wind of doctrine...dontcha ? ;)

Im not about to be drawn into your Calvinistic error, friend. You can hang that one up. Ive already been down that path years ago and found out what a fallacy it is.

I suspect that this is what benoni was talking about when he mentioned your tradition being so thick.

Tradition presumes that Ive been taught by someone outside of scripture.
Apparently you dont know me very well.
I gave up on being taught two decades ago when I saw that 99% of people in the church are like you and benoni....insisting I conform to your error and pretend I dont see what I see in Gods word.

A person who does not recognize that he has a tradition is usually the one most deeply steeped in his tradition.

Please.
Try this child psychology on benoni or someone else with whom it may work.
You know NOTHING about my life, my walk or my study.

The person who recognizes that he has a tradition and then constantly checks his tradition against the Scriptures is in the best position.

Scriptures are the ONLY measure of sound doctrine. Tradition is meaningless as it can be entirely tainted and corrupt.


We done here because you need to get back on topic and off my person...

 

[follower of Christ]

Why would I loose face I am quoting God's Word not my opinion. THERE IS NOTHING THAT WILL HAPPEN OUTSIDE OF GODS WILL; He is not a little god.

His 'will' INCLUDES that which He 'permits'....even tho He does NOT condone it.

When a man rapes a child God does NOT condone it..OR ordain it. He has 'permitted' it to happen, nothing more. And that man will pay a terrible price for his crime on that day.

Ill ask you again
DOES GOD ORDAIN IT WHEN A MAN RAPES A CHILD ?
Yes or No ?

And again we know the reason why you cant answer with a yes or no...
*IF* you had any real conviction about your doctrine you wouldnt need to hesitate for a second. The answer to that question is obvious (from your doctrinal position) and should be EASY to answer....but then you know whats going to happen here when you do, dont you? ;)

 

[Benoni]

Amen; man will pay a terrible price in the Lake of Fire; but NOT forever.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Permits, condones, odains how ever you want to sin it God is God of all things

Why should I give any straight answer to you who spins and assumes everything you say and rejects the very word of God you claim to follow.

Why would I loose face I am quoting God's Word not my opinion. THERE IS NOTHING THAT WILL HAPPEN OUTSIDE OF GODS WILL; He is not a little god.

His 'will' INCLUDES that which He 'permits'....even tho He does NOT condone it.

When a man rapes a child God does NOT condone it..OR ordain it. He has 'permitted' it to happen, nothing more. And that man will pay a terrible price for his crime on that day.

Ill ask you again
DOES GOD ORDAIN IT WHEN A MAN RAPES A CHILD ?
Yes or No ?

And again we know the reason why you cant answer with a yes or no...
*IF* you had any real conviction about your doctrine you wouldnt need to hesitate for a second. The answer to that question is obvious (from your doctrinal position) and should be EASY to answer....but then you know whats going to happen here when you do, dont you? ;)

 

[Benoni]

who simply believes what His word says.
.

:biglol :biglol

 

[follower of Christ]

Amen; man will pay a terrible price in the Lake of Fire; but NOT forever.

Oh brother...youre one of THOSE....

yes, benoni...forever....


Eternal hell vs eternal life

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article

To show that 'Hell' is a REAL place whose contents will finally be put into this eternal 'lake of fire' and that that place is 'perpetual'.
We do not teach about torment because we want to get even or revenge but only because we want to warn everyone we can about the truth and save them from going to that terrible place. Don't let false teachings cause you to not take this issue VERY seriously.

Supporting Evidence

1.0
Two eternal destinies

"And when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then will He sit upon His glorious throne.
All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on His left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' "
Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you did it to Me.' "
Then He will also say to those on the left, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' "Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and we did not minister to You?' "
Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, neither did you do it to Me.' "
And these shall go away into eternal punishment,
but the righteous into eternal life.
(Mat 25:31-46 EMTV)

eternal
G166
αἰÎνιοÂ
aiÃ…Ânios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).


G2851
κÌλαÃιÂ
kolasis
kol'-as-is
From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment.

No eternal punishment = No eternal life.
From that passage we see two distinct paths, one of which each of us will take depending on whether we are His child or not. It is also clear that the one path leads into the 'fire prepared for the devil and his angels', showing clearly that humans will at some point be put into the same place as Satan himself and the angels that decided to rebel against God with him.
Some use the argument that it doesnt SAY that people will burn forever, but it also doesnt specifically that they wont. Given the evidence as a whole, it seems much more likely that the people put in the lake of fire will face the same consequence that Satan and his angels will who are also there.

2.0
Resurrection to life or death

Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(1Co 15:12-22 KJV)

So yes....ALL will be resurrected.
And what more is said about this resurrection ?

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(Joh 5)

ALL will be made alive..resurrected...some to eternal life, some to eternal condemnation.

2.5
The resurrection body

Now this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor can corruption inherit incorruption.
(1Co 15:50 EMTV)

But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what sort of body do they come?" Fool, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that will be, but a bare grain--perhaps wheat or some other grains. But God gives to it a body just as He desired, and to each of the seeds its own body.
All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is a different kind of flesh for men, and another flesh for beasts, another for fish, and another for birds. And there are celestial bodies, and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
So also is the resurrection of the dead.
The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
(1Co 15:35-44 EMTV)

These who reign with Christ during the millennial reign quite apparently DO have their resurrection bodies since death has no power over them and they live thru the millenium with Christ.
Scripture shows that the rest were resurrected afterward and judgment taking place.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:4-15 KJV)

3.0
Torment
And here again, these PEOPLE who take the mark.
Notice the word is not 'kolasis' which is an argument used by some.

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
(Rev 14:9-10 KJV)


The sameG846 shall(G2532) drinkG4095 ofG1537 theG3588 wineG3631 of theG3588 wrathG2372 of God,G2316 which is poured outG2767 without mixtureG194 intoG1722 theG3588 cupG4221 of hisG848 indignation;G3709 andG2532 he shall be tormentedG928 withG1722 fireG4442 andG2532 brimstoneG2303 in the presenceG1799 of theG3588 holyG40 angels,G32 andG2532 in the presenceG1799 of theG3588 Lamb:G721
(Rev 14:10 KJV+)

G928
βαÃανίζÉ
basanizÃ…Â
bas-an-id'-zo
From G931; to torture: - pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.

Again, context of the whole SHOWS torment....

For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
(Luk 16:28 KJV)


Luk 16:28 ForG1063 I haveG2192 fiveG4002 brethren;G80 thatG3704 he may testifyG1263 unto them,G846 lestG3363 theyG846 alsoG2532 comeG2064 intoG1519 thisG5126 placeG5117 of torment.G931

G931
βάÃανοÂ
basanos
bas'-an-os
Perhaps remotely from the same as G939 (through the notion of going to the bottom); a touch stone, that is, (by analogy) torture: - torment.

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(Rev 14:11 KJV)

torment
G929
βαÃανιÃμÃŒÂ
basanismos
bas-an-is-mos'
From G928; torture: - torment.

And here we have the rich man in hell asking for water to cool his tongue.

and longing to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. And even the dogs came and would lick his sores. And it came to pass that the beggar died, and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom.

The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham from afar, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am suffering in this flame.'
(Luk 16:21-24 EMTV)

SUFFERING
G3600
ὀδÃ…νάÉ
odunaÃ…Â
od-oo-nah'-o
From G3601; to grieve: - sorrow, torment.

The words are clear that the rich man is suffering because of the 'flame' and wants to be cooled.
G5395
ÆλÌξ
phlox
flox
From a primary ÆλέγÉ phlegÃ…Â (to “flash†or “flameâ€Â); a blaze: - flame (-ing).

G2711
καÄαÈÃÂÇÉ
katapsuchÃ…Â
kat-ap-soo'-kho
From G2596 and G5594; to cool down (off), that is, refresh: - cool.

Sounds like a guy thats pretty hot, no ?
Hell and death have not yet been cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.

4.0
Duration

We'll look at the words used to describe duration of 'eternal' and see how these words are used elsewhere to determine what the context shows.
Here is one of those words, aionios.

G166
αἰÎνιοÂ
aiÃ…Ânios
Thayer Definition:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

G166
αἰÎνιοÂ
aiÃ…Ânios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Here we have PEOPLE who will burn forever who take the mark of the beast

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(Rev 14:11 KJV)

All who believe will live 'eternally' with Him.

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal (g166)life.
(Joh 3:15 KJV)

And I give unto them eternal (g166)life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
(Joh 10:28 KJV)

Here's TWO DIFFERENT words entirely to make the point.

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal(g166) life:
(Rom 2:7 KJV)

immortality
G861
ἀÆθαÃÂÃία
aphtharsia
af-thar-see'-ah
From G862; incorruptibility; generally unending existence; (figuratively) genuineness: - immortality, incorruption, sincerity.

Looks like 'eternal' (g166) there is simply in AGREEMENT with the idea
Heres one...

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal (g166) Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
(Heb 9:14 KJV)

We know the Spirit of God is 'eternal' supporting that g166 means precisely that.
Next we see that the glory of God is 'eternal'. If g166 means anything less than 'eternal' we would have to say that Gods glory is temporal.

But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal(g166) glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
(1Pe 5:10 KJV)

Here we see that the gospel is 'eternal'.

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting (g166)gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
(Rev 14:6 KJV)

And the Lords kingdom is also 'eternal' (g166)

For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting (g166)kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
(2Pe 1:11 KJV)

And His covenant, also 'eternal'.

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting (G166)covenant,
(Heb 13:20 KJV)

We know God is 'eternal'...

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting (g166) God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
(Rom 16:26 KJV)

Hebrews 9:12 shows that He has SECURED 'eternal redemption' for us.

Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
(Heb 9:12 KJV)

the CONTEXT of 'eternal life' is just THAT...ETERNAL LIFE

And I give unto them eternal (g166) life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
(Joh 10:28 KJV)

Gods word shows that that life is 'eternal' in the same way HE is by using the SAME greek word to describe it...aionios.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting (g166) God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
(Rom 16:26 KJV)

5.0
Who will and who wont be saved...

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and you believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the heart one believes resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.
(Rom 10:9-10 EMTV)

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(Joh 3:18 KJV)

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(Mat 7:21-23 KJV)

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:14-15 KJV)

But the cowardly, and unbelieving, and sinners, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and drug users, and idolaters, and all who are false shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
(Rev 21:8 EMTV)

6.0
Old Testament Evidence

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
some to everlasting life, and
some to shame and everlasting contempt.
(Dan 12:2 KJV)

H5769
עלנ/ עול×Â
‛ôlâm
BDB Definition:
1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
1a) ancient time, long time (of past)
1b) (of future)
1b1) for ever, always
1b2) continuous existence, perpetual
1b3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
(Isa 66:23-24 KJV)

Kolazo versus Kolasis

Internet source:
"The Greek word translated "punishment" in Matthew 25:46 means to curb, check, or restrain. The root idea is to put or place a person is a separated from God state and restrain him or her there forever. The word does not mean torture. Eternal torture is another gospel, false doctrine.

READERS, see this for yourself.
Internet source is using another word this word is DERIVED from, but it IS NOT the same exact word as the one he keeps claiming as explained below

Here is the actual word;

AndG2532 theseG3778 shall go awayG565 intoG1519 everlastingG166 punishment:G2851 butG1161 theG3588 righteousG1342 intoG1519 lifeG2222 eternal.G166
(Mat 25:46 KJV+)

This is the meaning. Notice that NEITHER scholar uses curb, check, or restrain as the Internet source falsely claims above.
Strong Definition:
G2851
κÌλαÃιÂ
kolasis
kol'-as-is
From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment.


Thayer Definition:
G2851
κÌλαÃιÂ
kolasis
1) correction, punishment, penalty

What the Internet source is doing is trying to mislead by claiming that this word that has its OWN meaning is exactly the same as the word it is derived from, which is this word
Notice that BOTH scholars agree about the intent of the word being curtail or curb.

Thayer Definition:
G2849
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
1) to lop or prune, as trees and wings
2) to curb, check, restrain
3) to chastise, correct, punishment
4) to cause to be punished

Strongs Definition:
G2849
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
kol-ad'-zo
From κÌλο kolos (dwarf); properly to curtail, that is, (figuratively) to chastise (or reserve for infliction): - punish.

The first word kolasis appears here in the NT;

G2851
κÌλαÃιÂ
kolasis
Total KJV Occurrences: 2
punishment, 1
Mat_25:46
torment, 1
1Jo_4:18

The second word Kolazo appears here in the NT;

G2849
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
Total KJV Occurrences: 2
punish, 1
Act_4:21
punished, 1
2Pe_2:9

Kolazo means 'curb, check, restrain'.
The word USED ....kolasis'....means PUNISHMENT / TORMENT
Not even Thayers shows them as meaning the SAME thing

G2851
κÌλαÃιÂ
kolasis
Thayer Definition:
1) correction, punishment, penalty


Strong Definition:
G2851
κÌλαÃιÂ
kolasis
kol'-as-is
From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment.

versus

G2849
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
Thayer Definition:
1) to lop or prune, as trees and wings
2) to curb, check, restrain
3) to chastise, correct, punishment
4) to cause to be punished


Strongs Definition:
G2849
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
kol-ad'-zo
From κÌλο kolos (dwarf); properly to curtail, that is, (figuratively) to chastise (or reserve for infliction): - punish.

What is clear is that Kolasis is MUCH narrower in intent than the root word Kolazo.

And EVEN IF Kolasis DID mean the same thing as Kolazo, the word Kolazo DOES MEAN 'punish' and in no way nullifies 'torment' in eternal flames...it actual would confirm 'confinement' AND 'punishment' !

G2849
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
Thayer Definition:
1) to lop or prune, as trees and wings
2) to curb, check, restrain
3) to chastise, correct, punishment
4) to cause to be punished


Strongs Definition:
G2849
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
kol-ad'-zo
From κÌλο kolos (dwarf); properly to curtail, that is, (figuratively) to chastise (or reserve for infliction): - punish.

Internet source:
"Similarly does the verb form of the word "kolasis" refer to torment? Nope. In 2 Peter 2:9 the idea is sinners will be kept in Hades until judgment, then they will be tossed into the lake of fire. So again the idea is rejection and separation. And finally, Acts 4:21 makes my case overwhelmingly. They let them go, finding no basis by which they could "kolasis in verb form" them. They let them go rather than "curb, check or restrain" them.

Actually the word in 2 Peter 2:9 isnt kolasis(G2851) but is kolazo(G2849) instead.
They are related, but they are not the same exact word.
Acts 4:21 isnt kolasis(G2851) either, but is also kolazo(G2849).

Its is apparent that kolasis(G2851) is FROM kolazo(G2849), but this doesnt make it the same exact word or the same exact intent.

kolasis(G2851)

Mat 25:46 AndG2532 theseG3778 shall go awayG565 intoG1519 everlastingG166 punishment:G2851 butG1161 theG3588 righteousG1342 intoG1519 lifeG2222 eternal.G166

There isG2076 noG3756 fearG5401 inG1722 love;G26 butG235 perfectG5046 loveG26 castethG906 outG1854 fear:G5401 becauseG3754 fearG5401 hathG2192 torment.G2851 (G1161) He that fearethG5399 is notG3756 made perfectG5048 inG1722 love.G26
(1Jn 4:18 KJV+)

G2851
Strongs
κÌλαÃιÂ
kolasis
kol'-as-is
From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment.


G2851
κÌλαÃιÂ
kolasis
Thayer Definition:
1) correction, punishment, penalty

VERSUS...

kolazo(G2849)

SoG1161 when theyG3588 had further threatenedG4324 them, they let them go,G630 G846 findingG2147 nothingG3367 howG4459 they might punishG2849 them,G846 becauseG1223 of theG3588 people:G2992 forG3754 allG3956 men glorifiedG1392 GodG2316 forG1909 that which was done.G1096
(Act 4:21 KJV+)

The LordG2962 knowethG1492 how to deliverG4506 the godlyG2152 out ofG1537 temptations,G3986 andG1161 to reserveG5083 the unjustG94 untoG1519 the dayG2250 of judgmentG2920 to be punished:G2849
(2Pe 2:9 )

G2849
Strongs
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
kol-ad'-zo
From κÌλο kolos (dwarf); properly to curtail, that is, (figuratively) to chastise (or reserve for infliction): - punish.


G2849
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
Thayer Definition:
1) to lop or prune, as trees and wings
2) to curb, check, restrain
3) to chastise, correct, punishment
4) to cause to be punished

Internet source seems to be correct about kolazÃ…Â and the intent there...but that isnt the same word that is in the end of Matthew.
Additionally the scholars have determined NOT to use 'curb, check or restrain' there in 2 Peter, so why is Internet sources choice of renderings more accurate than theBased on Matthew 25 and its use of kolasis which doesnt mean 'curb' , its easy enough to discern that the intent of 2 Peter is probably 'punish'...

And again EVEN IF Kolasis DID mean the same thing as Kolazo, the word Kolazo DOES MEAN 'punish' and in no way nullifies 'torment' in eternal flames...it actual would confirm 'confinement' AND 'punishment' !

G2849
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
Thayer Definition:
1) to lop or prune, as trees and wings
2) to curb, check, restrain
3) to chastise, correct, punishment
4) to cause to be punished


Strongs Definition:
G2849
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
kol-ad'-zo
From κÌλο kolos (dwarf); properly to curtail, that is, (figuratively) to chastise (or reserve for infliction): - punish.

 

[follower of Christ]

Permits, condones, odains how ever you want to sin it God is God of all things

Guess your 'god' cant make up his mind what he wants...

Why should I give any straight answer to you who spins and assumes everything you say and rejects the very word of God you claim to follow.

You shouldn't.
And you shouldn't because no direct response you give is going to do anything but expose you here to the readers of this thread.
Even in your failure to answer you have exposed your lack of conviction for your own views.
There is no way for you to succeed here, I'm afraid.

 

[Benoni]

I am not going to waist my time with spiritual things; you cannot even see the literal.

Amen; man will pay a terrible price in the Lake of Fire; but NOT forever.

Oh brother...youre one of THOSE....

yes, benoni...forever....


Eternal hell vs eternal life

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article

To show that 'Hell' is a REAL place whose contents will finally be put into this eternal 'lake of fire' and that that place is 'perpetual'.
We do not teach about torment because we want to get even or revenge but only because we want to warn everyone we can about the truth and save them from going to that terrible place. Don't let false teachings cause you to not take this issue VERY seriously.

Supporting Evidence

1.0
Two eternal destinies

"And when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then will He sit upon His glorious throne.
All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on His left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' "
Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you did it to Me.' "
Then He will also say to those on the left, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' "Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and we did not minister to You?' "
Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, neither did you do it to Me.' "
And these shall go away into eternal punishment,
but the righteous into eternal life.
(Mat 25:31-46 EMTV)

eternal
G166
αἰÎνιοÂ
aiÃ…Ânios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).


G2851
κÌλαÃιÂ
kolasis
kol'-as-is
From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment.

No eternal punishment = No eternal life.
From that passage we see two distinct paths, one of which each of us will take depending on whether we are His child or not. It is also clear that the one path leads into the 'fire prepared for the devil and his angels', showing clearly that humans will at some point be put into the same place as Satan himself and the angels that decided to rebel against God with him.
Some use the argument that it doesnt SAY that people will burn forever, but it also doesnt specifically that they wont. Given the evidence as a whole, it seems much more likely that the people put in the lake of fire will face the same consequence that Satan and his angels will who are also there.

2.0
Resurrection to life or death
[quote:134vhpcu]Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(1Co 15:12-22 KJV)

So yes....ALL will be resurrected.
And what more is said about this resurrection ?

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(Joh 5)

ALL will be made alive..resurrected...some to eternal life, some to eternal condemnation.

2.5
The resurrection body

Now this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor can corruption inherit incorruption.
(1Co 15:50 EMTV)

But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what sort of body do they come?" Fool, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. And what you sow, you do not sow that body that will be, but a bare grain--perhaps wheat or some other grains. But God gives to it a body just as He desired, and to each of the seeds its own body.
All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is a different kind of flesh for men, and another flesh for beasts, another for fish, and another for birds. And there are celestial bodies, and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
So also is the resurrection of the dead.
The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
(1Co 15:35-44 EMTV)

These who reign with Christ during the millennial reign quite apparently DO have their resurrection bodies since death has no power over them and they live thru the millenium with Christ.
Scripture shows that the rest were resurrected afterward and judgment taking place.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:4-15 KJV)

3.0
Torment
And here again, these PEOPLE who take the mark.
Notice the word is not 'kolasis' which is an argument used by some.

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
(Rev 14:9-10 KJV)


The sameG846 shall(G2532) drinkG4095 ofG1537 theG3588 wineG3631 of theG3588 wrathG2372 of God,G2316 which is poured outG2767 without mixtureG194 intoG1722 theG3588 cupG4221 of hisG848 indignation;G3709 andG2532 he shall be tormentedG928 withG1722 fireG4442 andG2532 brimstoneG2303 in the presenceG1799 of theG3588 holyG40 angels,G32 andG2532 in the presenceG1799 of theG3588 Lamb:G721
(Rev 14:10 KJV+)

G928
βαÃανίζÉ
basanizÃ…Â
bas-an-id'-zo
From G931; to torture: - pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.

Again, context of the whole SHOWS torment....

For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
(Luk 16:28 KJV)


Luk 16:28 ForG1063 I haveG2192 fiveG4002 brethren;G80 thatG3704 he may testifyG1263 unto them,G846 lestG3363 theyG846 alsoG2532 comeG2064 intoG1519 thisG5126 placeG5117 of torment.G931

G931
βάÃανοÂ
basanos
bas'-an-os
Perhaps remotely from the same as G939 (through the notion of going to the bottom); a touch stone, that is, (by analogy) torture: - torment.

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(Rev 14:11 KJV)

torment
G929
βαÃανιÃμÃŒÂ
basanismos
bas-an-is-mos'
From G928; torture: - torment.

And here we have the rich man in hell asking for water to cool his tongue.

and longing to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. And even the dogs came and would lick his sores. And it came to pass that the beggar died, and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom.

The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham from afar, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am suffering in this flame.'
(Luk 16:21-24 EMTV)

SUFFERING
G3600
ὀδÃ…νάÉ
odunaÃ…Â
od-oo-nah'-o
From G3601; to grieve: - sorrow, torment.

The words are clear that the rich man is suffering because of the 'flame' and wants to be cooled.
G5395
ÆλÌξ
phlox
flox
From a primary ÆλέγÉ phlegÃ…Â (to “flash†or “flameâ€Â); a blaze: - flame (-ing).

G2711
καÄαÈÃÂÇÉ
katapsuchÃ…Â
kat-ap-soo'-kho
From G2596 and G5594; to cool down (off), that is, refresh: - cool.

Sounds like a guy thats pretty hot, no ?
Hell and death have not yet been cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.

4.0
Duration

We'll look at the words used to describe duration of 'eternal' and see how these words are used elsewhere to determine what the context shows.
Here is one of those words, aionios.

G166
αἰÎνιοÂ
aiÃ…Ânios
Thayer Definition:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

G166
αἰÎνιοÂ
aiÃ…Ânios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Here we have PEOPLE who will burn forever who take the mark of the beast

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(Rev 14:11 KJV)

All who believe will live 'eternally' with Him.

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal (g166)life.
(Joh 3:15 KJV)

And I give unto them eternal (g166)life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
(Joh 10:28 KJV)

Here's TWO DIFFERENT words entirely to make the point.

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal(g166) life:
(Rom 2:7 KJV)

immortality
G861
ἀÆθαÃÂÃία
aphtharsia
af-thar-see'-ah
From G862; incorruptibility; generally unending existence; (figuratively) genuineness: - immortality, incorruption, sincerity.

Looks like 'eternal' (g166) there is simply in AGREEMENT with the idea
Heres one...

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal (g166) Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
(Heb 9:14 KJV)

We know the Spirit of God is 'eternal' supporting that g166 means precisely that.
Next we see that the glory of God is 'eternal'. If g166 means anything less than 'eternal' we would have to say that Gods glory is temporal.

But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal(g166) glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
(1Pe 5:10 KJV)

Here we see that the gospel is 'eternal'.

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting (g166)gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
(Rev 14:6 KJV)

And the Lords kingdom is also 'eternal' (g166)

For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting (g166)kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
(2Pe 1:11 KJV)

And His covenant, also 'eternal'.

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting (G166)covenant,
(Heb 13:20 KJV)

We know God is 'eternal'...

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting (g166) God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
(Rom 16:26 KJV)

Hebrews 9:12 shows that He has SECURED 'eternal redemption' for us.

Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
(Heb 9:12 KJV)

the CONTEXT of 'eternal life' is just THAT...ETERNAL LIFE

And I give unto them eternal (g166) life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
(Joh 10:28 KJV)

Gods word shows that that life is 'eternal' in the same way HE is by using the SAME greek word to describe it...aionios.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting (g166) God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
(Rom 16:26 KJV)

5.0
Who will and who wont be saved...

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and you believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the heart one believes resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.
(Rom 10:9-10 EMTV)

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(Joh 3:18 KJV)

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(Mat 7:21-23 KJV)

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
(Rev 20:14-15 KJV)

But the cowardly, and unbelieving, and sinners, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and drug users, and idolaters, and all who are false shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
(Rev 21:8 EMTV)

6.0
Old Testament Evidence

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
some to everlasting life, and
some to shame and everlasting contempt.
(Dan 12:2 KJV)

H5769
עלנ/ עול×Â
‛ôlâm
BDB Definition:
1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
1a) ancient time, long time (of past)
1b) (of future)
1b1) for ever, always
1b2) continuous existence, perpetual
1b3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
(Isa 66:23-24 KJV)

Kolazo versus Kolasis

Internet source:
"The Greek word translated "punishment" in Matthew 25:46 means to curb, check, or restrain. The root idea is to put or place a person is a separated from God state and restrain him or her there forever. The word does not mean torture. Eternal torture is another gospel, false doctrine.

READERS, see this for yourself.
Internet source is using another word this word is DERIVED from, but it IS NOT the same exact word as the one he keeps claiming as explained below

Here is the actual word;

AndG2532 theseG3778 shall go awayG565 intoG1519 everlastingG166 punishment:G2851 butG1161 theG3588 righteousG1342 intoG1519 lifeG2222 eternal.G166
(Mat 25:46 KJV+)

This is the meaning. Notice that NEITHER scholar uses curb, check, or restrain as the Internet source falsely claims above.
Strong Definition:
G2851
κÌλαÃιÂ
kolasis
kol'-as-is
From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment.


Thayer Definition:
G2851
κÌλαÃιÂ
kolasis
1) correction, punishment, penalty

What the Internet source is doing is trying to mislead by claiming that this word that has its OWN meaning is exactly the same as the word it is derived from, which is this word
Notice that BOTH scholars agree about the intent of the word being curtail or curb.

Thayer Definition:
G2849
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
1) to lop or prune, as trees and wings
2) to curb, check, restrain
3) to chastise, correct, punishment
4) to cause to be punished

Strongs Definition:
G2849
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
kol-ad'-zo
From κÌλο kolos (dwarf); properly to curtail, that is, (figuratively) to chastise (or reserve for infliction): - punish.

The first word kolasis appears here in the NT;

G2851
κÌλαÃιÂ
kolasis
Total KJV Occurrences: 2
punishment, 1
Mat_25:46
torment, 1
1Jo_4:18

The second word Kolazo appears here in the NT;

G2849
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
Total KJV Occurrences: 2
punish, 1
Act_4:21
punished, 1
2Pe_2:9

Kolazo means 'curb, check, restrain'.
The word USED ....kolasis'....means PUNISHMENT / TORMENT
Not even Thayers shows them as meaning the SAME thing

G2851
κÌλαÃιÂ
kolasis
Thayer Definition:
1) correction, punishment, penalty


Strong Definition:
G2851
κÌλαÃιÂ
kolasis
kol'-as-is
From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment.

versus

G2849
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
Thayer Definition:
1) to lop or prune, as trees and wings
2) to curb, check, restrain
3) to chastise, correct, punishment
4) to cause to be punished


Strongs Definition:
G2849
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
kol-ad'-zo
From κÌλο kolos (dwarf); properly to curtail, that is, (figuratively) to chastise (or reserve for infliction): - punish.

What is clear is that Kolasis is MUCH narrower in intent than the root word Kolazo.

And EVEN IF Kolasis DID mean the same thing as Kolazo, the word Kolazo DOES MEAN 'punish' and in no way nullifies 'torment' in eternal flames...it actual would confirm 'confinement' AND 'punishment' !

G2849
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
Thayer Definition:
1) to lop or prune, as trees and wings
2) to curb, check, restrain
3) to chastise, correct, punishment
4) to cause to be punished


Strongs Definition:
G2849
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
kol-ad'-zo
From κÌλο kolos (dwarf); properly to curtail, that is, (figuratively) to chastise (or reserve for infliction): - punish.

Internet source:
"Similarly does the verb form of the word "kolasis" refer to torment? Nope. In 2 Peter 2:9 the idea is sinners will be kept in Hades until judgment, then they will be tossed into the lake of fire. So again the idea is rejection and separation. And finally, Acts 4:21 makes my case overwhelmingly. They let them go, finding no basis by which they could "kolasis in verb form" them. They let them go rather than "curb, check or restrain" them.

Actually the word in 2 Peter 2:9 isnt kolasis(G2851) but is kolazo(G2849) instead.
They are related, but they are not the same exact word.
Acts 4:21 isnt kolasis(G2851) either, but is also kolazo(G2849).

Its is apparent that kolasis(G2851) is FROM kolazo(G2849), but this doesnt make it the same exact word or the same exact intent.

kolasis(G2851)

Mat 25:46 AndG2532 theseG3778 shall go awayG565 intoG1519 everlastingG166 punishment:G2851 butG1161 theG3588 righteousG1342 intoG1519 lifeG2222 eternal.G166

There isG2076 noG3756 fearG5401 inG1722 love;G26 butG235 perfectG5046 loveG26 castethG906 outG1854 fear:G5401 becauseG3754 fearG5401 hathG2192 torment.G2851 (G1161) He that fearethG5399 is notG3756 made perfectG5048 inG1722 love.G26
(1Jn 4:18 KJV+)

G2851
Strongs
κÌλαÃιÂ
kolasis
kol'-as-is
From G2849; penal infliction: - punishment, torment.


G2851
κÌλαÃιÂ
kolasis
Thayer Definition:
1) correction, punishment, penalty

VERSUS...

kolazo(G2849)

SoG1161 when theyG3588 had further threatenedG4324 them, they let them go,G630 G846 findingG2147 nothingG3367 howG4459 they might punishG2849 them,G846 becauseG1223 of theG3588 people:G2992 forG3754 allG3956 men glorifiedG1392 GodG2316 forG1909 that which was done.G1096
(Act 4:21 KJV+)

The LordG2962 knowethG1492 how to deliverG4506 the godlyG2152 out ofG1537 temptations,G3986 andG1161 to reserveG5083 the unjustG94 untoG1519 the dayG2250 of judgmentG2920 to be punished:G2849
(2Pe 2:9 )

G2849
Strongs
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
kol-ad'-zo
From κÌλο kolos (dwarf); properly to curtail, that is, (figuratively) to chastise (or reserve for infliction): - punish.


G2849
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
Thayer Definition:
1) to lop or prune, as trees and wings
2) to curb, check, restrain
3) to chastise, correct, punishment
4) to cause to be punished

Internet source seems to be correct about kolazÃ…Â and the intent there...but that isnt the same word that is in the end of Matthew.
Additionally the scholars have determined NOT to use 'curb, check or restrain' there in 2 Peter, so why is Internet sources choice of renderings more accurate than theirs?

Based on Ma25 and its use of kolasis which doesnt mean 'curb' , its easy enough to discern that the intent of 2 Peter is probably 'punish'...

And again EVEN IF Kolasis DID mean the same thing as Kolazo, the word Kolazo DOES MEAN 'punish' and in no way nullifies 'torment' in eternal flames...it actual would confirm 'confinement' AND 'punishment' !

G2849
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
Thayer Definition:
1) to lop or prune, as trees and wings
2) to curb, check, restrain
3) to chastise, correct, punishment
4) to cause to be punished


Strongs Definition:
G2849
κολάζÉ
kolazÃ…Â
kol-ad'-zo
From κÌλο kolos (dwarf); properly to curtail, that is, (figuratively) to chastise (or reserve for infliction): - punish.

[/quote:134vhpcu]

 

[Benoni]

Like I said you cannot not even see literal things

Permits, condones, odains how ever you want to sin it God is God of all things

Guess your 'god' cant make up his mind what he wants...

Why should I give any straight answer to you who spins and assumes everything you say and rejects the very word of God you claim to follow.

You shouldn't.
And you shouldn't because no direct response you give is going to do anything but expose you here to the readers of this thread.
Even in your failure to answer you have exposed your lack of conviction for your own views.
There is no way for you to succeed here, I'm afraid.

 

[follower of Christ]

I am not going to waist my time

Good choice.
Oh wait, YOU didnt make that choice, did you ?
Thats right, your god is here 'ordaining' your words and mine and thus arguing vainly with himself

 

[Benoni]

You are right it is a good choice but my choice here has nothing to do with my salvation let alone anyone’s salvation and as I have ready showed you using God Word, choice has nothing to do with anyone’s salvation.

Of course as you have already demonstrated God’s Word is only useful when it agrees with your view; that is the reason I do not want to waste my time with you.

Let us get this straight there is a big difference between who we believe and who I believe in. The Jesus I believe in is God; He is a savior who has a plan to save all man kind, there is nothing subordinated under Him for He is the Lord of lords; King of kings. The devil is but a tool in His all powerful and all knowing universe and no evil or good is out of touch of his complete and absolute authority. There is no such thing as “God allowed itâ€Â, God does not allow anything He does or He doesn’t according to His will not Satan or Adam. With that authority my God is a just God and savior who will punish/prune chastise all men not because He is a monster but because He will not be satisfied until every knee will bow When? When every heart is made willing! There is no connotation or undertone here of God forcing these to just mouth words. Instead there is the implication that it is done in a heartfelt, even worshipful attitude. They have been made willing; every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

Now lets look at your god who has lost control in the garden, poor little Adam had to choose to obey god and upset the apple cart so your god had to figure out a plan B, because plan A failed terribly. Satan has more power and authority because god made him an arch angel so Satan took all the power from god, BUT maybe god can save a few if he is really lucky.

Besides Satan has control over billions and billions of god’s creation and god is helpless to save them for they all have a freewill or choice. Your god has the will to condemn billions because he has the will torture them forever and ever; but does not have the will to save them.

Then poor Jesus died and even that was not good enough because the vast majority of Adam’s race never choose to serve god. In other words Adam sin is far more powerful then the blood of jesus.

I am not going to waist my time

Good choice.
Oh wait, YOU didnt make that choice, did you ?
Thats right, your god is here 'ordaining' your words and mine and thus arguing vainly with himself

 

[Relic]

I am not going to waist my time

Good choice.
Oh wait, YOU didnt make that choice, did you ?
Thats right, your god is here 'ordaining' your words and mine and thus arguing vainly with himself

"no choice"

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Wow Benoni, Answer the question with a yes or a no and stop beating around the bush with evasive replies and accusations. And saying that you don't need to answer the question because of some lame excuse you come up with. Fess up and answer the question. YES OR, NO. That simple.

The question does have relevance to the OP and will prove that your blaming God, for the fall rather than on what behavior man chooses to act upon, is all wrong.


So, answer the question.

DOES GOD ORDAIN IT WHEN A MAN RAPES A CHILD ?
Yes or No ?


The answer is NO. God does not ordain the raping of a child!


I was raped as a child and I KNOW THAT GOD DOES NOT ORDAIN ANYONE TO DO SUCH A HORRIBLE THING TO ANY CHILD! If that were true I would be a person who hates God for "making / forcing" that person do that to me! GOD DID NOT MAKE or FORCE THAT PERSON DO THAT TO ME! Just because God permits something to happen does not mean that HE APPROVES OF IT OR ORDAINS any person to behave so horribly! The person chooses to do the horrible thing! God knew he would do that and I'm sure that God whispered into his conscience that it was wrong to do what he was thinking to act upon. BUT that person CHOSE to IGNORE the correction the guidance of Righteousness! God give us freedom to choose what behavior to act upon or ignore. And just because God is the potter and we are the clay doesn't mean he didn't give his creation any freedom to think for themselves or to give themselves over to someone else’s will, IF we choose to do so.
God gives us choices to do with our will as we choose, to choose what spirit or SPIRIT to abide by. He gives us a choice as to whether we will to obey him or ignore him. WE are the one’s who turn our backs of God. God does not forsake us. Christ died for our salvation. But we must be willing to accept the baptism of Holy Spirit to come and live in us through us, and be willing participants in following the guidance of Holy Spirit unto salvation. WE are told to not grieve Holy Spirit. When we grieve Holy Spirit that means we have missed the mark..... we didn’t follow His guidance, we “CHOSE†to ignore Him. Sin is a choice. We have choices. Adam and Eve chose to IGNORE the truth OF HOLY GOD. They created their own fall.

Why should I give any straight answer to you who spins and assumes everything you say and rejects the very word of God you claim to follow.

You shouldn't.
And you shouldn't because no direct response you give is going to do anything but expose you here to the readers of this thread.
Even in your failure to answer you have exposed your lack of conviction for your own views.
There is no way for you to succeed here, I'm afraid.

follower of Christ, I’m sure I’m not the only one who agrees with you on this!


HOW MANY PEOPLE HERE THINK GOD ORDAINS MEN TO RAPE CHILDREN? I would hope that NONE would think so! God does not force anyone to commit sin. THEY choose to do the sin on their own. God intervenes through the prayers of the saints. He also calls people but not all people will choose to follow Him. And just because in the end of all matters all will bow to God and proclaim Him as LORD.... doesn't mean that all who do so will thereafter choose to follow HIM.... Even the devil knows GOD.... The devil still chooses to pervert the HOLINESS OF THE LORD GOD.


People who think that Satan-Lucifer and ALL demon spirits will finally at some point in time be repentant and saved..... are mistaken. Universalism is a cult following and a false religion.

.

 

[Relic]

Then poor Jesus died and even that was not good enough because the vast majority of Adam’s race never choose to serve god. In other words Adam sin is far more powerful then the blood of jesus.

:crazy You are making that one up buddy! No where in the bible does it even suggest that!

Whose to say that the "'vast majority" will not choose to serve God? You? What is the "vast majority", according to you? No Adams sin is NOT far mor powerful than the blood of Jesus. Jesus died for the sins of the world but that doesn't mean that ALL will be saved by the blood of Jesus. Jesus didn't die in vain... He knows those who are His. Can you say baaaaa? The lost are not the "vast majority" . The vast majority are not the unrepentant whoremongers, liars, theives, murderers.


.

 

[Rick W]

Then poor Jesus died and even that was not good enough because the vast majority of Adam’s race never choose to serve god. In other words Adam sin is far more powerful then the blood of jesus.

Universal Reconciliation is not supported by this site.

This thread has outlived it's usefulness. And that's about enough of "your god" from both sides.