Did God Cause the Fall?

[follower of Christ]

Really. I think you just lost this debate.

;)
What else would you think ?

 

[Benoni]

Follower... wrote:
“Pharoah is ONE man and ONE case where Gods absolutely used His sovereignty to cause His will to be done.
That has NOTHING to do with the billions of others who have existed thru history.
This is just one more instance of your taking a verse entirely out of context.
Romans 9 ISNT about individual predestination.
Romans 9 is about what has happened to Israel.
When you figure that out then the issue with pharoah become meaningless as far as individual predestination is concerned.â€Â

Very specific individuals are spoken of in the beginning of Romans 9; one who is the true seed of Israel, the other not, as stated in verses 11 through 14, though both came from the same earthly father and mother:
“for they being not yet born, neither having done anything good or evil, that the purpose of God, according to choice, might remain; not of works, but of Him who is calling,) it was said to her --
`The greater shall serve the less;' according as it hath been written, `Jacob I did love, and Esau I did hate.'
What, then, shall we say? unrighteousness [is] with God? let it not be!â€Â
Paul already assume that their would be people as yourself who would object to this sovereign choice of God, thus verses 15 through 23:
“for to Moses He saith, `I will do kindness to whom I do kindness, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion;'
so, then -- not of him who is willing, nor of him who is running, but of God who is doing kindness:
for the Writing saith to Pharaoh -- `For this very thing I did raise thee up, that I might shew in thee My power, and that My name might be declared in all the land;'
so, then, to whom He willeth, He doth kindness, and to whom He willeth, He doth harden.
Thou wilt say, then, to me, `Why yet doth He find fault? for His counsel who hath resisted?'
nay, but, O man, who art thou that art answering again to God? shall the thing formed say to Him who did form [it], Why me didst thou make thus?
hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour?
And if God, willing to shew the wrath and to make known His power, did endure, in much long suffering, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction,
and that He might make known the riches of His glory on vessels of kindness, that He before prepared for glory, whom also He did call -- us –“
Yet, the “coup de grace†is the 24th verse that blows this God is only speaking about the nation of Israel:
“...not only out of Jews, but also out of nationsâ€Â
Grace, Bubba

1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come. example


Example: NT:5178 a : Strong’s: tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture)

What ever... maybe you can help your friend here find some good solid Bible verse that declares Adam had a choice when he ate the forbidden fruit. Also while you are at it how about some verse that declares man has a freewill or choice for salvation?

 

[Benoni]

Really. I think you just lost this debate.

;)
What else would you think ?

Your the one playing games because you have no scriptural backing of your false doctrine.

You spin holds no water, it means NOTHING......

 

[Bubba]

Benoni wrote;
"What ever... maybe you can help your friend here find some good solid Bible verse that declares Adam had a choice when he ate the forbidden fruit. Also while you are at it how about some verse that declares man has a freewill or choice for salvation?"

There are none! Bubba

 

[Benoni]

Benoni wrote;
"What ever... maybe you can help your friend here find some good solid Bible verse that declares Adam had a choice when he ate the forbidden fruit. Also while you are at it how about some verse that declares man has a freewill or choice for salvation?"

There are none! Bubba

Praise God for an honest man

 

[follower of Christ]

Follower... wrote:
“Pharoah is ONE man and ONE case where Gods absolutely used His sovereignty to cause His will to be done.
That has NOTHING to do with the billions of others who have existed thru history.
This is just one more instance of your taking a verse entirely out of context.
Romans 9 ISNT about individual predestination.
Romans 9 is about what has happened to Israel.
When you figure that out then the issue with pharoah become meaningless as far as individual predestination is concerned.â€Â

Very specific individuals are spoken of in the beginning of Romans 9; one who is the true seed of Israel, the other not, as stated in verses 11 through 14, though both came from the same earthly father and mother:
“for they being not yet born, neither having done anything good or evil, that the purpose of God, according to choice, might remain; not of works, but of Him who is calling,) it was said to her --
`The greater shall serve the less;' according as it hath been written, `Jacob I did love, and Esau I did hate.'
What, then, shall we say? unrighteousness [is] with God? let it not be!â€Â

'keep reading...the truth will sink in eventually that Romans 9 ISNT about individual predestination, nor does it teach that God predestines in the way that some fallacies claim. ;)

Paul already assume that their would be people as yourself who would object to this sovereign choice of God, thus verses 15 through 23:

Paul assumed that false teachers would run amok..so thank goodness he forewarned us to watch for them

“for to Moses He saith, `I will do kindness to whom I do kindness, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion;'
so, then -- not of him who is willing, nor of him who is running, but of God who is doing kindness:
for the Writing saith to Pharaoh -- `For this very thing I did raise thee up, that I might shew in thee My power, and that My name might be declared in all the land;'
so, then, to whom He willeth, He doth kindness, and to whom He willeth, He doth harden.
Thou wilt say, then, to me, `Why yet doth He find fault? for His counsel who hath resisted?'
nay, but, O man, who art thou that art answering again to God? shall the thing formed say to Him who did form [it], Why me didst thou make thus?
hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour?
And if God, willing to shew the wrath and to make known His power, did endure, in much long suffering, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction,
and that He might make known the riches of His glory on vessels of kindness, that He before prepared for glory, whom also He did call -- us –“

Yup...a passage about Israel and what has happened to her

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises....

....Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel...

....Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

(Romans 9)

Romans 9 is NOT about individual predestination, folks.
It is explaining Israels condition and how she got there.

Yet, the “coup de grace†is the 24th verse that blows this God is only speaking about the nation of Israel:
“...not only out of Jews, but also out of nationsâ€Â
Grace, Bubba

oh please.
You REALLY need to READ your supposed evidence BEFORE you post it and make yourself look silly.
In NO way does that statement nullify that this chapter is ABOUT what has transpired with the NATION of Israel

 

[follower of Christ]

1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come. example

uh....yeah

What ever... maybe you can help your friend here find some good solid Bible verse that declares Adam had a choice when he ate the forbidden fruit. Also while you are at it how about some verse that declares man has a freewill or choice for salvation?

Instruction presumes the ability to choose.
Getting it yet ?

 

[follower of Christ]

Your the one playing games because you have no scriptural backing of your false doctrine.

You spin holds no water, it means NOTHING......

We've proven what needs to be proven...that you are MISrepresenting Roman 8:20 entirely.

 

[follower of Christ]

Benoni wrote;
"What ever... maybe you can help your friend here find some good solid Bible verse that declares Adam had a choice when he ate the forbidden fruit. Also while you are at it how about some verse that declares man has a freewill or choice for salvation?"

There are none! Bubba

I have no free will.
"god" is making me argue this issue with you folks so why are you getting upset with me ?

:yes

 

[follower of Christ]

Benoni wrote;
"What ever... maybe you can help your friend here find some good solid Bible verse that declares Adam had a choice when he ate the forbidden fruit. Also while you are at it how about some verse that declares man has a freewill or choice for salvation?"

There are none! Bubba

Praise God for an honest man

Birds of a feather

 

[Benoni]

1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come. example

uh....yeah

What ever... maybe you can help your friend here find some good solid Bible verse that declares Adam had a choice when he ate the forbidden fruit. Also while you are at it how about some verse that declares man has a freewill or choice for salvation?

Instruction presumes the ability to choose.
Getting it yet ?

Don't try to skip out on the fact you cannot back your doctrines of damnations with God's Word. Freewill, choice??????????????????????????????????//

 

[Benoni]

Benoni wrote;
"What ever... maybe you can help your friend here find some good solid Bible verse that declares Adam had a choice when he ate the forbidden fruit. Also while you are at it how about some verse that declares man has a freewill or choice for salvation?"

There are none! Bubba

Praise God for an honest man

Birds of a feather

 

[follower of Christ]

Don't try to skip out on the fact you cannot back your doctrines of damnations with God's Word. Freewill, choice??????????????????????????????????//

Please.
When you can show us that Romans 8:20 is about a PRE-fall condition give me a ring.
GODS WORD called everything GOOD in the beginning AFTER Adam was created....not 'corrupt' as Romans 8:20-22 shows....

Cause and effect.
WHEN God CREATED He called creation GOOD....not 'corrupt'.
[quote:5h37894x]Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

The WHOLE creation which WAS GOOD in the beginning now has been affected by Adams transgression...

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
(Romans 8:20-22 KJV)

ALL creation has been subjected to futility and corruption, which WAS NOT said about it in the beginning when it WAS 'good'.

It was not 'corrupted' by God in the beginning as some false doctrines profess.
It happened when Adam chose to sin and thus caused himself and creation to be subjected TO this punishment.
Creation could NOT be 'good' and 'corrupt' at the same time.
The change happened when Adam sinned and God pronounced judgment on man..

.[/quote:5h37894x]

 

[Benoni]

Don't try to skip out on the fact you cannot back your doctrines of damnations with God's Word. Freewill, choice??????????????????????????????????//

Please.
When you can show us that Romans 8:20 is about a PRE-fall condition give me a ring.
GODS WORD called everything GOOD in the beginning AFTER Adam was created....not 'corrupt' as Romans 8:20-22 shows....

Cause and effect.
WHEN God CREATED He called creation GOOD....not 'corrupt'.
[quote:1z0dzl8e]Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

The WHOLE creation which WAS GOOD in the beginning now has been affected by Adams transgression...
[quote:1z0dzl8e]For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
(Romans 8:20-22 KJV)

ALL creation has been subjected to futility and corruption, which WAS NOT said about it in the beginning when it WAS 'good'.

It was not 'corrupted' by God in the beginning as some false doctrines profess.
It happened when Adam chose to sin and thus caused himself and creation to be subjected TO this punishment.
Creation could NOT be 'good' and 'corrupt' at the same time.
The change happened when Adam sinned and God pronounced judgment on man..

.[/quote:1z0dzl8e][/quote:1z0dzl8e]

I do not need to show you a thing; God's Word has already showed you but your religion is your god.

Give me a ring when you be a overcomer.

 

[Bubba]

Follower wrote:
“You REALLY need to READ your supposed evidence BEFORE you post it and make yourself look silly.
In NO way does that statement nullify that this chapter is ABOUT what has transpired with the NATION of Israelâ€Â

Does not verse 24 make a distinction between two groups of people (Jews and Gentiles) after Paul spoke of vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath? Thus God sovereign choice of the true Israel.
Galatians 6:15-16;
“for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation;
16and as many as by this rule do walk -- peace upon them, and kindness, and on the Israel of God!â€Â
Bubba

 

[follower of Christ]

I do not need to show you a thing; God's Word has already showed you but your religion is your god.

Youre right. You havent shown us anything and Gods actual word shows that you are adding to it.
You have failed to PROVE that this 'subjection' existed PRIOR to Adams choice to sin.
And there is NO reason for us to believe that God was 'corrupting' creation BEFORE sin...especially when GOD called ALL things GOOD at that point.

 

[follower of Christ]

Follower wrote:
“You REALLY need to READ your supposed evidence BEFORE you post it and make yourself look silly.
In NO way does that statement nullify that this chapter is ABOUT what has transpired with the NATION of Israelâ€Â

Does not verse 24 make a distinction between two groups of people (Jews and Gentiles) after Paul spoke of vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath? Thus God sovereign choice of the true Israel.
Galatians 6:15-16;
“for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation;
16and as many as by this rule do walk -- peace upon them, and kindness, and on the Israel of God!â€Â
Bubba

One thing verse 24 DOESNT do is negate the CONTEXT of Romans 9 and that its not about INDIVIDUAL predestination but about the nation of Israel as Ive already proven.

 

[Bubba]

Romans 11:32ff:
“For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34"Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"[j]
35"Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"[k]
36For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.â€Â

Follower...,
Romans 11 speaks to God sovereignly giving the ethnic Jew a “spirit of stupor†, eyes that cannot see and ears that cannot hear, that the Gentiles would be grafted in. Each of us Jew and Gentile alike are dead in our sins, until the Spirit of God illuminates us and causes us to see and hear the saving message of Christ (Eph. 2:1-7). The interesting aspect of the end of Romans chapter 11 is, all of us until regeneration are men “bound in disobedienceâ€Â, just like Adam was predestined to fall, and thus our fallen state as his children in every age since. Yet, in God’s timing we have “that He may have mercy on them onâ€Â. That is a loving Father speaking.
Bubba

 

[Bubba]

Follower...,
Who are "the vessels of wrath and the vessels of mercy" in the beginning of Romans 11? Is God's sovereign chioce now towards the Gentiles for an age? After reading Romans 11, does Romans 9:24 take on a new meaning in regards to "not only the Jews, but also the gentiles", to you?
Bubba

 

[follower of Christ]

Follower...,
Who are "the vessels of wrath and the vessels of mercy" in the beginning of Romans 11? Is God's sovereign chioce now towards the Gentiles for an age? After reading Romans 11, does Romans 9:24 take on a new meaning in regards to "not only the Jews, but also the gentiles", to you?
Bubba

Im not about to be led down some rabbit trail to your ill concieved predestination nonsense.
Romans 9, as I have shown already, is ABOUT what has transpired with Israel.
That it mentions the gentiles DOESNT negate that fact.