Benoni said:
Wow you almost have it right here; you just need to prove your opionion with God's Word or it is just wood hay and stubble.
Certainly...
You said" That does not mean that He caused Adam to sin". This is what you cannot prove and seeing Romans 8:20 and Ps 90 refutes this; you can never prove this point that God did not cause the fall seeing God Word says HE CAUSED THE FALL.
Complete tripe nonsense.
NEITHER of those passages show that they applied to Adam WHILE Adam had not yet sinned and was STILL in fellowship with God.
It must be horrible to worship a 'god' who is supposedly 'for' you and yet working AGAINST you in the same breath...
Unless you can show this in scripture there is no truth in your statement. This is scriptural fact no matter how much you want to spin or voice your bias opinion.
Until you can PROVE that your out of context verses mentioned applied PRIOR to Adams fall, then Im afraid you are just grinding gears...and moderation should honestly consider shutting this worthless thread down, quite frankly.
You said" Yes God is soverign and so HIS sovereign determined will prevails"; attually it will prevail nothing can stop it to include the will of little bitty Adam.. It was God who cause the fall and it is God who took blaime for it.
No, God didnt take the blame for mans fall...that is YOUR addition to the text.
Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. <period, end of sentence)
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. <period, end of sentence)
You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men. <period, end of sentence)
Not a thing to do with Adam...
(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have
Romans 8:20 - A judgment on sinful man
Wm Tipton
Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
To show that this subjection of futility is an EFFECT, not a CAUSE, of mans condition and choice to sin.
Supporting Evidence
Romans 8:20 is one of those passages that there is a lot of disagreement upon by those who ARE scholars of scripture and of Greek.
It is absolutely not a good idea to found a whole doctrine upon in order to put the blame of OUR choice to sin on God.
I spent some time looking at it again and the disagreement of scholars is amazing...if men who DO know Greek and spend their whole lives studying Gods word cannot agree on what this tiny verse means exactly (there seems to be some disagreement on how the greek is to even be rendered into english exactly), then its is VERY dangerous to ignore verses like this one;
Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them. Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )
..that CLEARLY says that GOD is not responsible for OUR sin.
To run to a verse that may not even actually SAY what one wants it to say and then reject something that has NO other intent to but to purposefully convey ONE intent that GOD ISNT making us sin, is fairly dangerous, in my opinion.
As far as I have seen and understood it Romans 8:20 is a SENTENCE upon man...entirely against mans will he was subjected to this sentence that came about because of his DECISION to sin against God.
When man sinned against God did man, of his OWN WILL, WANT to be subjected to this 'futility' ?
That would make us insane as well as sinners.
There is NOTHING in Romans 8:20 that nullifies James 1:13-15, Im afraid. And it is a foolhardy venture to try to make that the case.
Romans 8:20 DOESNT say God makes men sin and is fairly uncertain as to its EXACT intent....James 1:13-15 CLEARLY presents that God does NOT do so.
Here are some words of men who know the greek language, since I dont (and I doubt others here do either).
Rom 8:20
Was subjected (hupetagē). Second aorist passive indicative of hupatassŠ(cf. Rom_8:7).
To vanity (tēi mataiotēti). Dative case. Rare and late word, common in lxx. From mataios, empty, vain. Eph_4:17; 2Pe_2:18.
Not of its own will (ouch hekousa). Common adjective, in N.T. only here and 1Co_9:27. It was due to the effect of man’s sin.
But by reason of him (alla dia ton). Because of God.
In hope that (Ephesians' helpidi hoti). Note the form helpidi rather than the usual elpidi and so Ephesians'. Hoti can be causal “because†instead of declarative “that.â€Â\
Vincent WORD studies
2.0
Cause and effect.
WHEN God CREATED He called creation GOOD....not 'corrupt'.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.
The WHOLE creation which WAS GOOD in the beginning now has been affected by Adams transgression...
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
(Romans 8:20-22 KJV)
[/quote]
ALL creation has been subjected to futility and corruption, which WAS NOT said about it in the beginning when it WAS 'good'.
It was not 'corrupted' by God in the beginning as some false doctrines profess.
It happened when Adam chose to sin and thus caused himself and creation to be subjected TO this punishment.
Creation could NOT be 'good' and 'corrupt' at the same time.
The change happened when Adam sinned and God pronounced judgment on man..
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