Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[smaller]

The Bible says quite different. It says that man received the knowledge of good and evil from eating of the tree with that name.

That was the completion of the cycle of sin, which sin cycle is first thought, then word, and finally deed, certifying that the flesh dies because of sin.

It was ONLY after they ate from that tree did the Lord God say this:
Gen. 3:
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil

Sin is evil. Evil always begins and comes first from within. Adam was no exception, nor was Eve. Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Matt. 5:28. Nor were they "internally" just them. Satan is involved, internally, with every sin and evil. Mark 4:15, 1 John 3:8

Your position only sees Adam. Scripture does not see that way.

There is no verse in Genesis or any other book from the Bible that says that the breath of God included the "knowledge of good and evil".

The Divine Cadence of God exists in Every Word He Speaks. For good and life. Against evil and death.

All things however are set before us by our Maker.

Therefore, there is no support from Scripture regarding your claims.

1 Corinthians 1:29
That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Not Adam's. Not Eve's. Not mine. Not yours.

 

[smaller]

If the knowledge of evil came into Adam at the breathing in of life by God, why would God have to tell him later on not to do evil??? Wouldn't he have that knowledge???

If you've followed the dialog, you'd factor what happened. Mark 4:15. From that point of insight into the dust/body, Adam is not the only player. The "law" was laid upon Adam because the lawless one had entered his dust ball.

And why did God wait until He'd covered fallen Adam with a skin garment to say that Adam has come to know evil???

The flesh of Adam, that formed dust, was granted access by the tempter. God made both the temporal image AND the intruder to do what they do.

Most wallow and wail that the sin that dwells in the flesh is only them. It's not. Paul denied that the sin dwelling in his flesh was him. Romans 7:17 & 20. And likewise, if it was for Paul, truthfully, "NO MORE I" then it was also so for Adam. But the natural man can not come into or receive this sight, unless God allows them to see. Even though it is written, PLAIN AS THE DAY.

 

[smaller]

Whatever case you are trying to make, it in no way supports your claim that 'When Gods Breath of life was breathed into the dust body of Adam, that "knowledge of evil" came with His Breath', so there is nothing for me to respond to.

I'd thank you to respond in kind, with scripture counters, not mere and typical assertions.

Scripture steps it out.

Ultimately there is no escaping the conclusion that The Creator created all things. And that by rights of reason, includes the power evil and the dust clay in which God has allowed that working to run it's course.

John 1:3, Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11

Upon completion these powers, made by God, will be permanently put away. Just as they were made to do what they do, PREDESTINED, they were likewise PREDESTINED to be destroyed.

Ephesians 6:
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Have a look at Paul's wrestling match. It was never about "him" and the "other people."

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Anyone can look at another man's evil. That is the sight of the blind and the hypocrite. It takes much more wrestling to look at our own.

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The Bible says quite different. It says that man received the knowledge of good and evil from eating of the tree with that name."

That was the completion of the cycle of sin, which sin cycle is first thought, then word, and finally deed, certifying that the flesh dies because of sin.

Please read the passage again and notice the tenses. And the Lord God didn't say that Adam and the woman had become like them UNTIL they ate of the tree. So, your position is not supported by Scripture.

Sin is evil. Evil always begins and comes first from within. Adam was no exception, nor was Eve.

Adam and the woman did NOT have the "knowledge of good and evil" UNTIL they ate of the tree. Read your Bible.

Nor were they "internally" just them. Satan is involved, internally, with every sin and evil.

They were NOT Satan possessed, as your claim suggests. Satan deceived the woman, and the woman enticed Adam. They chose to eat of the fruit.

Your position only sees Adam. Scripture does not see that way.

In fact, it absolutely does see it that way. This is what Paul said about it:
1 Tim 2:13-14
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

1 Cor 15:22-23
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

So, why would Paul say that "in Adam all die" if Adam isn't the one accountable? Why didn't Paul include Satan in the garden?

The Divine Cadence of God exists in Every Word He Speaks.

Here we go again. More non-sensical words. Please define what this "divine cadence of God" is.

 

[FreeGrace]

I'd thank you to respond in kind, with scripture counters, not mere and typical assertions.
Scripture steps it out.

In fact, it is your position that has no Scripture, and is mere assertions.

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Notice WHEN this messenger of Satan was given to Paul? It seems your position is that this "messenger of Satan" is in everyone's flesh, including Adam's. Which is not supported by Scripture. Paul was given this thorn in the flesh because of what he saw in the 3rd heavens.

 

[Jim Parker]

the Lord God didn't say that Adam and the woman had become like them UNTIL they ate of the tree.

A&E were created like God so they were already "like us" before they ate.

Gen 1:26-27 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

A&E became "like one of us," ONLY in the aspect of "knowing good and evil" (Gen 3::22) to which knowledge God had forbidden them to access.

As Dietrich Bonhoeffer put it, (paraphrasing) Adam and Ever were not created to know good and evil; they were created to know God.

mazel tov

iakov the fool

 

[FreeGrace]

A&E were created like God so they were already "like us" before they ate.

Being created "in our image" refers to their being created body, soul, and spirit. It's called trichotomy. They weren't said to be "like" us" until AFTER they ate of the tree. It's all rather clear in the text.

Gen 1:26-27 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Nothing here about knowledge of good and evil. Just trichotomy.

A&E became "like one of us," ONLY in the aspect of "knowing good and evil" (Gen 3::22) to which knowledge God had forbidden them to access.

That was my point.

 

[Jim Parker]

Being created "in our image" refers to their being created body, soul, and spirit. It's called trichotomy. They weren't said to be "like" us" until AFTER they ate of the tree. It's all rather clear in the text.

Gen 1:26-27 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...

That was my point.

If you think that was your point then you did not understand what I said.

 

[Free]

I'd thank you to respond in kind, with scripture counters, not mere and typical assertions.

You are the one making unsupported assertions and because of that, I have nothing to respond to. I can't counter something that isn't mentioned in Scripture in the first place.

Scripture steps it out.

Ultimately there is no escaping the conclusion that The Creator created all things. And that by rights of reason, includes the power evil and the dust clay in which God has allowed that working to run it's course.

John 1:3, Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11

Upon completion these powers, made by God, will be permanently put away. Just as they were made to do what they do, PREDESTINED, they were likewise PREDESTINED to be destroyed.

Ephesians 6:
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Have a look at Paul's wrestling match. It was never about "him" and the "other people."

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Anyone can look at another man's evil. That is the sight of the blind and the hypocrite. It takes much more wrestling to look at our own.

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

You have provided verses that merely show evil exists and can exert influence on us in mysterious ways. No one denies that but that doesn't answer what I have now asked several times from you: Where are the verses that show 'When Gods Breath of life was breathed into the dust body of Adam, that "knowledge of evil" came with His Breath'?

 

[Northman]

“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.

16 “By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.
Ezekiel 28:14-16


Lucifer was not created evil.


JLB

This reaches too much for me. Im not sure what it has to do though with the question though. I did answer yours then you answered mine with more questions and no answer. :wink

The underlining of things wont help, I read it all. Plainly the Word says that the devil was a murderer from the beginning and always hated the truth. And it says that, it doesnt make you have to try and bring other parts of the Word together to get an explanation. It doesnt say there was a turning point. It says from the beginning. To accept what you posted as a descriptor of the devil reaches too far, especially when earlier in the exact same book the holy mountain is placed on earth(20:40). Later, nations are described as trees in the garden of God(31:3). Citing that a certain tree was the envy of all others, in that garden. Wasnt that version of "perfect" used to describe Job and Noah as well? Fluid prophecies about and against nations and then "WHOOP" wrench in the middle of them? Right after God says "Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, thus says the Lord God:" ?

 

[JLB]

The underlining of things wont help, I read it all. Plainly the Word says that the devil was a murderer from the beginning and always hated the truth. And it says that, it doesnt make you have to try and bring other parts of the Word together to get an explanation. It doesnt say there was a turning point. It says from the beginning. To accept what you posted as a descriptor of the devil reaches too far, especially when earlier in the exact same book the holy mountain is placed on earth(20:40). Later, nations are described as trees in the garden of God(31:3). Citing that a certain tree was the envy of all others, in that garden. Wasnt that version of "perfect" used to describe Job and Noah as well? Fluid prophecies about and against nations and then "WHOOP" wrench in the middle of them? Right after God says "Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, thus says the Lord God:" ?

Satan was a murderer.

We agree.

However, that is not the argument, so there's no use trying to make it one.

We agree that Satan was a murderer.

The discussion that I am referring to is the account of the creation of Lucifer.

Do you believe God created Lucifer to be a murderer?

“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
Ezekiel 28:14-15

Do you believe Lucifer was created as evil?



JLB

 

[Northman]

Satan was a murderer.

We agree.

However, that is not the argument, so there's no use trying to make it one.

We agree that Satan was a murderer.

The discussion that I am referring to is the account of the creation of Lucifer.

Do you believe God created Lucifer to be a murderer?

“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
Ezekiel 28:14-15

Do you believe Lucifer was created as evil?



JLB

You present those verses as describing Satan, Im saying I have to follow what a man says to come up with the same conclusion. If you wont answer questions when I do you the honour of answering yours then we can probably just cease.

 

[Northman]

The same Word of Life to us causes the DEVIL to be hardened and enraged against every Word of God "in us."

Very much experienced in the here and now practical. The times something new on the list of God's dislikes is learned and then the stirring came, only to be followed by "Oh please God forgive me". Eventually it turned to "Holy smokes what was that?". What is said about it now? No more I.

 

[JLB]

You present those verses as describing Satan, Im saying I have to follow what a man says to come up with the same conclusion. If you wont answer questions when I do you the honour of answering yours then we can probably just cease.

What question did you ask that I did not answer?

Please post it.



JLB

 

[smaller]

Very much experienced in the here and now practical. The times something new on the list of God's dislikes is learned and then the stirring came, only to be followed by "Oh please God forgive me". Eventually it turned to "Holy smokes what was that?". What is said about it now? No more I.

Brilliant deduction!

Psalm 144:1
Blessed be the Lord my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:

Luke 11:20
But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

Cast out also encompasses the term "bringing forth." That would be "to view."

A believer can rifle through false presentations of scripture very quickly when the bearer of such tidings has little to no account of the spiritual adversaries in their claims, particularly so if they have no personal witness of the matters. It is a hard thing to put the truths of Mark 4:15, Romans 3:9, Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:17-21, Gal. 5:17 and particularly 2 Cor. 12:7 in our own mouths. I'd dare say impossible without the Light of God upon ourselves, leading to the enemies. Without the above, the person making claims has not yet been shown and are speaking in and from the darkness, not bearing rule over same.

Psalm 18:28
For thou wilt light my candle: the Lord my God will enlighten my darkness.

People who claim they don't have have issues of same are not speaking and can NOT speak in the Light of His Words. Not that I think they're not saved. That's not the point. Not "all" of what they (don't think they) are is saved.

Once seen, you'll never see scriptures or mankind or even God the same way again. All of us walk with two shoes, one called Loved, the other called hated.

Revelation 2:16
Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

 

[smaller]

This reaches too much for me. Im not sure what it has to do though with the question though. I did answer yours then you answered mine with more questions and no answer. :wink

The underlining of things wont help, I read it all. Plainly the Word says that the devil was a murderer from the beginning and always hated the truth. And it says that, it doesnt make you have to try and bring other parts of the Word together to get an explanation. It doesnt say there was a turning point. It says from the beginning. To accept what you posted as a descriptor of the devil reaches too far, especially when earlier in the exact same book the holy mountain is placed on earth(20:40). Later, nations are described as trees in the garden of God(31:3). Citing that a certain tree was the envy of all others, in that garden. Wasnt that version of "perfect" used to describe Job and Noah as well? Fluid prophecies about and against nations and then "WHOOP" wrench in the middle of them? Right after God says "Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, thus says the Lord God:" ?

Brother, I see The Lord has LIT a candle in YOU. Whew. You are blessed!

Nailed it in the above. That's what happens when we walk Hand in hand with The Truth.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Brilliant deduction!

Psalm 144:1
Blessed be the Lord my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight:

Luke 11:20
But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

Cast out also encompasses the term "bringing forth." That would be "to view."

A believer can rifle through false presentations of scripture very quickly when the bearer of such tidings has little to no account of the spiritual adversaries in their claims, particularly so if they have no personal witness of the matters. It is a hard thing to put the truths of Mark 4:15, Romans 3:9, Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:17-21, Gal. 5:17 and particularly 2 Cor. 12:7 in our own mouths. I'd dare say impossible without the Light of God upon ourselves, leading to the enemies. Without the above, the person making claims has not yet been shown and are speaking in and from the darkness, not bearing rule over same.

Psalm 18:28
For thou wilt light my candle: the Lord my God will enlighten my darkness.

People who claim they don't have have issues of same are not speaking and can NOT speak in the Light of His Words. Not that I think they're not saved. That's not the point. Not "all" of what they (don't think they) are is saved.

Once seen, you'll never see scriptures or mankind or even God the same way again. All of us walk with two shoes, one called Loved, the other called hated.

Revelation 2:16
Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Now, if only we could convince them. The morning after I was saved I noted, clearly, that nothing looked the same in my eyes. The evil I walked away from appeared ever more evil and the world around more beautiful. And there was the presence of God with me.

 

[smaller]

You are the one making unsupported assertions

Now just STOP right there. I have provided, scripture point by point of what I see.

If you have "specific" scriptural counter point, then give it. The assertion routine isn't appropriate.

and because of that, I have nothing to respond to. I can't counter something that isn't mentioned in Scripture in the first place.

Every time you and I go down this road, you dead end the road with the above assertion. And the dead end comes from your end when I trot out the enemies of the Gospel to view. Which your positions have nearly zero accounting of.

I rest my case on the reality of Mark 4:15.

If you don't want to address the reality of Mark 4:15, fine. Then move on and let's not bother.

 

[smaller]

Now, if only we could convince them. The morning after I was saved I noted, clearly, that nothing looked the same in my eyes. The evil I walked away from appeared ever more evil and the world around more beautiful. And there was the presence of God with me.

I know that LOVE!

Jude 1:21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

What I have learned in this Bill, over a lifetime of faith, is to see our spiritual adversaries, RATHER than denigrating other believers or even other people, on the damnation side of the ledgers. It has helped me greatly to stay in His Love, and fulfill the dictates of Romans 13:8-10, personally.

As it pertains to the subject matter herein, I do very much believe that God predestined to 'create' enemies against His children. To have us "wrestle" with them. And will put them away in the end, in the LoF. That wrestling match transpires in our own sorry hides. Eph. 6:11-12, Gal. 5:17.

 

[Free]

The underlining of things wont help, I read it all. Plainly the Word says that the devil was a murderer from the beginning and always hated the truth. And it says that, it doesnt make you have to try and bring other parts of the Word together to get an explanation. It doesnt say there was a turning point. It says from the beginning.

Are you saying that God created the devil as an evil being?