Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[smaller]

In fact, it is your position that has no Scripture, and is mere assertions.

As it pertains to "evil" coming into the dust body of Adam, I accept Jesus' conclusion of what happened and still happens, from Mark 4:15. That also happened with Adam, immediately, when God Spoke to that dust. You can throw all the assertion claims at it you please. I'll apply Mark 4:15 to the menu of facts.

Notice WHEN this messenger of Satan was given to Paul?

Well, you actually figured out that Paul, as he stated, DID have "a messenger of Satan" in his flesh? Bravo for you if you "accept that is a fact." It is a fact.

Now, how much do you want to keep blowing the trumpet of eternal security with only ONE LIP?

It seems your position is that this "messenger of Satan" is in everyone's flesh, including Adam's.

There is no question to me whatsoever that our flesh has spiritually adverse workings therein. No question about it. And yes, sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:8. So it's pointless to have "any" doctrine or understandings without "all the facts."

Which is not supported by Scripture. Paul was given this thorn in the flesh because of what he saw in the 3rd heavens.

What is not supported by scripture are claims by anyone that voids the "adversarial components."

 

[Free]

Now just STOP right there. I have provided, scripture point by point of what I see.

If you have "specific" scriptural counter point, then give it. The assertion routine isn't appropriate.

You have not provided a single verse which is evidence for your claim that 'When Gods Breath of life was breathed into the dust body of Adam, that "knowledge of evil" came with His Breath'.

Every time you and I go down this road, you dead end the road with the above assertion. And the dead end comes from your end when I trot out the enemies of the Gospel to view. Which your positions have nearly zero accounting of.

I rest my case on the reality of Mark 4:15.

If you don't want to address the reality of Mark 4:15, fine. Then move on and let's not bother.

Of course I don't want to address Mark4:15, because it has absolutely nothing to do with what I have been asking you.

 

[smaller]

Are you saying that God created the devil as an evil being?

Ask Jesus. John 8:44

And yes, God created all things, all powers, including the power of evil which is what the devil has and does. John 1:1-3, Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11, Isa. 45:7, Isa. 54:16 and many many more.

Most of the people who "don't" believe God created all things have an isolated God view in their position, of Him, retracted from creation, not involved whatsoever, sitting on a light cloud out there in the universe somewhere totally oblivious to what happens here on earth. I don't accept any of these types of views.

 

[smaller]

You have not provided a single verse which is evidence for your claim that 'When Gods Breath of life was breathed into the dust body of Adam, that "knowledge of evil" came with His Breath'.

I'll cite it again, in case you missed it. Mark 4:15 happened immediately to the dust of Adam. Was Adam the same as the dust he was placed into? Never.

Adam was, as scriptures say, Gods own son. Luke 3:38

I've also cited several times now, the specific planting conditions of Adam's natural body as defined by Paul in 1 Cor. 15:42-46, showing a first natural man, Adam in a condition of dishonor, corruption, weakness and eventually death of that natural body. Those were his body conditions from the moment Gods Speaking came upon that body.

And I elaborated from there, HOW we know this was so, by Gods putting the first LAW upon Adam, which law is for/against lawless sinners. IF the flesh did not contain indwelling sin/evil present then there would have been NO LAW laid upon him. 1 Tim. 1:9. This takes some understanding to get to. It's not for novices who have no understanding of LAW. Which Law, from my recollections, your positions toss aside. So I doubt your positions have much understanding of law, seeing you probably spent a lot of time ignoring.

 

[smaller]

Of course I don't want to address Mark4:15, because it has absolutely nothing to do with what I have been asking you.

That's why I pinpointed exactly where you and I part company on how we see things.

 

[Free]

Ask Jesus. John 8:44.

I would rather Northman answer for himself but since I suspect he believes as you do, I will say that there is certainly more than one way of understanding what is meant by "beginning". It almost certainly doesn't mean "since he began to exist," but more likely "since causing the fall of man" or, less likely, "since causing Cain to kill Abel".

 

[Free]

I'll cite it again, in case you missed it. Mark 4:15 happened immediately to the dust of Adam. Was Adam the same as the dust he was placed into? Never.

Adam was, as scriptures say, Gods own son. Luke 3:38

I've also cited several times now, the specific planting conditions of Adam's natural body as defined by Paul in 1 Cor. 15:42-46, showing a first natural man, Adam in a condition of dishonor, corruption, weakness and eventually death of that natural body. Those were his body conditions from the moment Gods Speaking came upon that body.

And I elaborated from there, HOW we know this was so, by Gods putting the first LAW upon Adam, which law is for/against lawless sinners. IF the flesh did not contain indwelling sin/evil present then there would have been NO LAW laid upon him. 1 Tim. 1:9. This takes some understanding to get to. It's not for novices who have no understanding of LAW. Which Law, from my recollections, your positions toss aside. So I doubt your positions have much understanding of law, seeing you probably spent a lot of time ignoring.

And none of that supports your claim. I'm not going to bother addressing things that have nothing to do with what I have asked, namely, evidence for your claim that 'When Gods Breath of life was breathed into the dust body of Adam, that "knowledge of evil" came with His Breath'. Nothing you have given shows that to be the case.

 

[smaller]

And none of that supports your claim. I'm not going to bother addressing things that have nothing to do with what I have asked, namely, evidence for your claim that 'When Gods Breath of life was breathed into the dust body of Adam, that "knowledge of evil" came with His Breath'. Nothing you have given shows that to be the case.

Of course you see it that way, when your positions completely refuse to see Mark 4:15 as a reality. So rather than seeing that fact, that reality, your position claims nothing in it's stead.

Jesus: Matt. 4:4
Jesus: Luke 4:4
Jesus: Mark 4:15

 

[Free]

Of course you see it that way, when your positions completely refuse to see Mark 4:15 as a reality. So rather than seeing that fact, that reality, your position claims nothing in it's stead.

Jesus: Matt. 4:4
Jesus: Luke 4:4
Jesus: Mark 4:15

I have said nothing about Mark 4:15 because it has absolutely nothing do with the claim you made and my asking for evidence.

I'm done with our discussion. It clearly is going nowhere because you cannot, or refuse to, provide evidence for your claims.

 

[smaller]

I would rather Northman answer for himself but since I suspect he believes as you do,

Northman is running the same path and timeline I've already walked, many years ago.

Here is what happened to Northman. It is no work of mine.

Matthew 13:26
But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

Since he can point to his own "tares," because he sees them, it is evidence of the blade, coming up out of the earth, his body. I recognize that he sees. And agree with his sight, as to what he discovered for himself, by testing the reality of scriptures.

I will say that there is certainly more than one way of understanding what is meant by "beginning".

There is the reality of First Cause in play in these "beginnings." Since God created 'all things,' even as we are supposed to claim, from the Nicene Creed, which I certainly claim as a standard, then it follows that God Own Hands can not reasonably be retracted from 'any' thing, power, visible or invisible matter within His Own creation.

Seems simple enough to me. And well documented by scriptures such as John 1:1-3, Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11, Isa. 45:7, Prov. 16:4 and many many others.

It almost certainly doesn't mean "since he began to exist," but more likely "since causing the fall of man" or, less likely, "since causing Cain to kill Abel".

God "created" light and darkness in the first chapter of the Bible. And divided them. That created light and darkness is not the "same" as He Is, Who Is above 'all things' in His creation.

So, yes, the darkness, the night, was made that way by God, from the very beginning. Gen. 1:5. Seeing these in the strict literal sense will yield only partial sight. There are spiritual components to both the light and the darkness, to be observed. For some anyway.

Psalm 78:14
In the daytime also he led them with a cloud, and all the night with a light of fire.

There is no question to me that God created all things. God also created Satan, the wicked one, the power of spiritual darkness. That darkness is forced, compelled by Own Gods Words, to move against the Light and the Life of His Word. Mark 4:15.

Satan did not create himself, or create his own wickedness. He was, as Jesus said, a murderer from the beginning. And made to be that way. John 8:44.

I understand this does not fit the mold of understandings for those who engage multiple creators.

 

[smaller]

I have said nothing about Mark 4:15 because it has absolutely nothing do with the claim you made and my asking for evidence.

Tell me why you do not think that applies to Adam? Jesus said man will live by Every Word of God. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4. Therefore every Word that Jesus Spoke, applies also to Adam, inclusive of Mark 4:15.

I'm done with our discussion. It clearly is going nowhere because you cannot, or refuse to, provide evidence for your claims.

I will admit I am not fond of any positions that do not apply "every Word" of God to man, as Jesus dictates. And your positions do not accept Jesus' dictate, obviously.

 

[JLB]

If you have "specific" scriptural counter point, then give it. The assertion routine isn't appropriate.

Still waiting for you to point out where in the account of the creation man, where it says Adam was created with evil in him.

God said he was created as good.



Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Genesis 1:31

Here is the account of creation, and the description of what God created:

Line upon line, can be examined to see if there is any reference to sin or evil being present within the dust of the earth, or within Adam on the Day he was created by God.


Here is Genesis 1:26-31.

Please point out which verse or sentence teaches us there was evil or sin created by God within Adam.

If you can not, then please repent for calling what God made as very good... evil.

• 26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

• 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

• 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

• 29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food.

• 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so.

• 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Why would God call something that He created very good... as evil?

Answer: He wouldn't and He didn't.

Who would call what God created as good... evil?





JLB

 

[JLB]

Of course you see it that way, when your positions completely refuse to see Mark 4:15 as a reality. So rather than seeing that fact, that reality, your position claims nothing in it's stead.

Jesus: Matt. 4:4
Jesus: Luke 4:4
Jesus: Mark 4:15

All of these scriptures pertain to what happened after Adam sinned.

He has repeatedly asked you to provide scriptures of the account of creation, BEFORE ADAM SINNED, that show he was created with sin or evil in his flesh, or within him.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Still waiting for you to point out where in the account of the creation man, where it says Adam was created with evil in him.

Your position still doesn't understand that Adam, Gods son, Luke 3:38, was not the same as the dust ball he was put in. When your position arrives at that fact first, we might move on to more profitable engagements.

God said he was created as good.

See above. Rinse and repeat til we understand that the flesh is and remains factually "against" and "contrary to" the Spirit. And vice versa. Gal. 5:17

 

[smaller]

All of these scriptures pertain to what happened after Adam sinned.

So says you. Jesus told us what happens in Mark 4:15. I accept this happened immediately when God Spoke into that formed dust. You don't. So, there is the isolation. My position doesn't provide that isolation from Adam's creation. Your position does. Hence, your position can not stand under Jesus' Dictates of Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, applying "every Word" to Adam.

He has repeatedly asked you to provide scriptures of the account of creation, BEFORE ADAM SINNED,

Your positions see sin only as an external matter of action. Scripture doesn't. Again, a simple difference. Evil is present "within" us. It is not a matter of external actions only. External actions PROVE the internal reality of evil present. But lack of external actions do not DISPROVE the internal reality of evil present. Do your positions understand this? No. Your positions are fleshly, external observations only. They do not look INSIDE, which takes spiritual "insight."

I have already delineated in this thread, that the internal reality of "evil present" was already upon Adam, when the FIRST LAW with PENALTY came to him. 1 Tim. 1:9 (and other scriptures) proves sin indwelt the flesh of Adam, and that evil was present with him. God gives LAW to "lawless sinners." And does so precisely to PROVOKE it, to show itself. Romans 3:19, Romans 7:13, 1 Cor 15:56.

 

[Free]

God "created" light and darkness in the first chapter of the Bible. And divided them. That created light and darkness is not the "same" as He Is, Who Is above 'all things' in His creation.

If God created darkness, then he would not have needed to create light. The Bible does not say that God created darkness but it does say he created light and separated it from the darkness. Darkness is the absence of light, as evil is the absence of good.

Satan did not create himself, or create his own wickedness. He was, as Jesus said, a murderer from the beginning. And made to be that way. John 8:44.

But you're wrong about the meaning of "beginning".

I understand this does not fit the mold of understandings for those who engage multiple creators.

There is no one here who believes in multiple creators. Do not purposely misrepresent others' positions.

 

[Free]

Tell me why you do not think that applies to Adam? Jesus said man will live by Every Word of God. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4. Therefore every Word that Jesus Spoke, applies also to Adam, inclusive of Mark 4:15.

You apparently are completely unaware of context, for one. But for another, as I have stated numerous times, it has absolutely nothing to do with your claim and the evidence for which I have asked.

I will admit I am not fond of any positions that do not apply "every Word" of God to man, as Jesus dictates. And your positions do not accept Jesus' dictate, obviously.

Again, you are purposely misrepresenting my position. Knock it off.

 

[smaller]

If God created darkness, then he would not have needed to create light.

In HIS Far Superior to "all things" Seat, there is no difference, one to the other. They are both His servants.

Psalm 139:12
Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

The Bible does not say that God created darkness

Oh please, let's not go there. No thing, no power, no condition, exists apart from being created by our Creator. Without creation, there is only God Himself. There was not God and "darkness."

but it does say he created light and separated it from the darkness. Darkness is the absence of light, as evil is the absence of good.

That is your positions claim. That there was GOD, and that there was darkness, BOTH Eternal. Or equating ONE with the other. Take your pick.

I utterly reject such notions.

Read:

Colossians 1:17
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

So, no, there was not "GOD" side by side with anything.

 

[smaller]

You apparently are completely unaware of context, for one.

I don't accept any contextual arguments that eradicate a single Word of God. Which is how contextual arguments are always deployed. If context seeks to eliminate Word, it's an invalid posture. Matt. 4:4 and Luke 4:4 applies every Word of God to man. Any other slants can't run that litmus test.

But for another, as I have stated numerous times, it has absolutely nothing to do with your claim and the evidence for which I have asked.

You keep making that assertion, but you have not postured any scripture with it. It is a mere declaration.

Again, you are purposely misrepresenting my position. Knock it off.

Bring the goods of scripture with you in your positional argument. Then we'll compare. No need to get huffy.

 

[FreeGrace]

As it pertains to "evil" coming into the dust body of Adam, I accept Jesus' conclusion of what happened and still happens, from Mark 4:15.

There is absolutely zero biblical support for your opinion. The devil didn't show up until after the woman was formed from Adam. And the devil did NOT "come into the dust body of Adam". That is tantamount to demon possession.

That also happened with Adam, immediately, when God Spoke to that dust. You can throw all the assertion claims at it you please. I'll apply Mark 4:15 to the menu of facts.

Such an "application" of Mark 4:15 is totally fallacious regarding Adam and the woman. There is no basis for it. Nor have you shown any.

Well, you actually figured out that Paul, as he stated, DID have "a messenger of Satan" in his flesh? Bravo for you if you "accept that is a fact." It is a fact.

Actually, Paul referred to a thorn in the flesh. I'm sure most people can relate to that. Paul certainly wasn't demon possessed, as your position seems to insinuate. But it's real difficulty to actually figure out what your position is, since your word choices leave a whole lot to be desired.

Now, how much do you want to keep blowing the trumpet of eternal security with only ONE LIP?

Once again we see an example of non-sensical sentences that mean nothing. Eternal security is proven from irrefutable logic.

If A = B, and B = C, then A = C.

Now, let's put that to Scripture.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
A = eternal life
B = gift of God

Rom 11:29-30 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
B = God's gifts
C = irrevocable

So, A = C, or eternal life is irrevocable.

Now, to prove that this logic is flawed, one must prove either:
1. eternal life is NOT a gift of God, or
2. God's gifts are NOT irrevocable.

I'd call it "mission impossible".

There is no question to me whatsoever that our flesh has spiritually adverse workings therein.

Please define or at least explain what "spiritually adverse workings" mean.

What is not supported by scripture are claims by anyone that voids the "adversarial components."

I think most believers understand that the devil is our adversary. Is that all your point?