Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[smaller]

That doesn't provide evidence for your claim: "When Gods Breath of life was breathed into the dust body of Adam, that "knowledge of evil" came with His Breath."

Please provide proof from Scripture.

The knowledge of "good and evil" arrives from The Breath of God. It is BUILT IN, right into our own conscience. As any of us could and will at some point, attest to.

Gen. 3:
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

 

[Free]

The knowledge of "good and evil" arrives from The Breath of God. It is BUILT IN, right into our own conscience. As any of us could and will at some point, attest to.

Gen. 3:
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

You make the claim but have not provided proof. Where does the Bible say that 'When Gods Breath of life was breathed into the dust body of Adam, that "knowledge of evil" came with His Breath'?

 

[JLB]

So, the serpent was PERFECT in the Garden? Is this your claim? Where do we see that exactly? The very first time the serpent is trotted out to see, in Gen. 3:1, we see the serpent, openly, as both made by God and 'subtil.' Shrewd. Deceiving. Tempting. Lying.

Very good you say? Perfect you claim? Show me. I'm from Missouri on this subject.

More of your deceitful misrepresenting of what has been posted.

You willfully ignore the account of creation, because of your error. The spirit of error seems to be at work in your post's.

Lucifer was created as perfect in his ways, until iniquity was found in his heart.

“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.Ezekiel 28:14-15


Show us from this account of Lucifer's creation where he was created as evil by God.


JLB

 

[smaller]

You make the claim but have not provided proof. Where does the Bible say that 'When Gods Breath of life was breathed into the dust body of Adam, that "knowledge of evil" came with His Breath'?

We've already done this exercise Free.

God delivered the law, "DO NOT EAT," to Adam. Who is the "law" for?

1 Timothy 1:
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Had the dust that Adam was placed into, not ALREADY been in the above state, in the flesh, NO LAW was warranted.

Who gives their innocent supposedly "sinless" son a death threat?

That death was PRE-Ordained, by God, for that dust flesh from day 1.

 

[JLB]

So, the serpent was PERFECT in the Garden? Is this your claim? Where do we see that exactly? The very first time the serpent is trotted out to see, in Gen. 3:1, we see the serpent, openly, as both made by God and 'subtil.' Shrewd. Deceiving. Tempting. Lying.

Very good you say? Perfect you claim? Show me. I'm from Missouri on this subject.

Lucifer chose of his free will, to desire to exalt himself to be as God.

Lucifer became the Enemy

Because he said in his heart...

“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
Foryou have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
Isaiah 14:12-15

Show us from this account of Lucifer's creation where he was created as evil by God.

Until you can show us from this account of the creation of Lucifer, whereby he was created less than perfect, you are in error.

 

[Free]

We've already done this exercise Free.

God delivered the law, "DO NOT EAT," to Adam. Who is the "law" for?

1 Timothy 1:
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Had the dust that Adam was placed into, not ALREADY been in the above state, in the flesh, NO LAW was warranted.

Who gives their innocent supposedly "sinless" son a death threat?

That death was PRE-Ordained, by God, for that dust flesh from day 1.

You are avoiding providing proof, why is that? Why make such a claim about God and the creation of man if you cannot back it up?

 

[smaller]

More of your deceitful misrepresenting of what has been posted.

You willfully ignore the account of creation, because of your error. The spirit of error seems to be at work in your post's.

I'm still waiting for the Perfect Serpent to show up JLB. Find him yet?

The first look at the serpent in creation in the Gen. account openly yields the facts that the serpent was "made" by God, and that it was subtil, tempting, deceiving, lying. Gen. 3:1.

Now, go find me A PERFECT SERPENT prior. You only have Gen. 1 & 2 to locate same.

Lucifer was created as perfect in his ways, until iniquity was found in his heart.

And you find this WHERE in Gen. 1 or 2? Are you going to create a PRE-CREATION account on your own from PRIOR to Gen. 1:1 to find that Perfect Being?

 

[JLB]

Are you ready to make your confession, that the SERPENT was "very good?"

Genesis 3
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Very good you say? Coaxing, granted. Because your position demands that conclusion. I see no credible way to make the SERPENT very good. In fact we are warned adequately NOT to do this:

Isaiah 5:20
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Does the serpent have the power of darkness? Let's look!

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Yes, the serpent was "given" that power, by The Creator of "all powers."

Very good you say?

John 19:11
Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Interesting, no?

Yes Lucifer was created as perfect... until iniquity was found in his heart.

Lucifer was also created as good and perfect in his ways, until iniquity was found in his heart.

“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.Ezekiel 28:14-15


Show us from this account of Lucifer's creation where he was created as evil by God.


Lucifer chose of his free will, to desire to exalt himself to be as God.

Lucifer became Satan; The Enemy. The Serpent.


Claiming that God created an evil being is false.

God created Lucifer, an angel who was perfect in his ways, until iniquity was found in his heart, in which he was cast from heaven to become God's enemy; Satan.


Until you stop denying God's word, you will remain in error and open yourself to continue to be under the spirit of error who promotes false doctrine among the brethren.



JLB

 

[smaller]

You are avoiding providing proof, why is that? Why make such a claim about God and the creation of man if you cannot back it up?

The proof of Gods Law stares us both in the face. 1 Tim. 1:9.

This was THE LAW that was put upon Adam:

Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Law is meant to make sin utterly sinful, which IT DID. Romans 7:13. Law is meant to "empower" sin, which IT DID. 1 Cor. 15:56.

The evidence of lawlessness transpired before either Eve or Adam "ate" because it was already present in their own flesh. Marked out, clear as can be.

Were indwelling sin not already present in that dust ball of Adam, it wouldn't have went down the way it did.

 

[smaller]

Yes Lucifer was created as perfect... until iniquity was found in his heart.

Show me Perfect Lucifer in Gen. 1 or 2. Because we both know exactly what the serpent is by the time we get to Gen. 3:1.

Lucifer was also created as good and perfect in his ways, until iniquity was found in his heart.

Fine. Prove it from Gen. 1 or 2. That's all the further you should have to look to locate PERFECT LUCIFER unless you are making up your own pre-creation narrative.

The very first exposure we have to the serpent, in Gen. 3:1, is obviously the condition of the serpent, unless you can prove otherwise.

So, please locate Perfect Lucifer in Gen. 1 or 2.

 

[Free]

The proof of Gods Law stares us both in the face. 1 Tim. 1:9.

This was THE LAW that was put upon Adam:

Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Law is meant to make sin utterly sinful, which IT DID. Romans 7:13. Law is meant to "empower" sin, which IT DID. 1 Cor. 15:56.

The evidence of lawlessness transpired before either Eve or Adam "ate" because it was already present in their own flesh. Marked out, clear as can be.

Were indwelling sin not already present in that dust ball of Adam, it wouldn't have went down the way it did.

You are still avoiding. You made a very specific claim that 'When Gods Breath of life was breathed into the dust body of Adam, that "knowledge of evil" came with His Breath.' Such a specific, and rather serious, claim needs to have a verse or verses which either clearly state such or very strongly imply such. So far you have not given anything which even remotely suggests that your claim is biblically based. It is mere conjecture.

 

[smaller]

You are still avoiding. You made a very specific claim that 'When Gods Breath of life was breathed into the dust body of Adam, that "knowledge of evil" came with His Breath.'

IF you want to claim a difference between Gods Breath and His Own Word, you are welcome to try to make that division.

We know for no uncertain fact that no such divisions exist between Gods Breath and His Own Word.

Romans 4:15
Because the law worketh wrath

Such a specific, and rather serious, claim needs to have a verse or verses which either clearly state such or very strongly imply such. So far you have not given anything which even remotely suggests that your claim is biblically based. It is mere conjecture.

There are far more serious theological implications trying to divide Gods Expressions in ANY FORM, from His Own Word, as you should well know.

 

[Free]

IF you want to claim a difference between Gods Breath and His Own Word, you are welcome to try to make that division.

We know for no uncertain fact that no such divisions exist between Gods Breath and His Own Word.

Romans 4:15
Because the law worketh wrath



There are far more serious theological implications trying to divide Gods Expressions in ANY FORM, from His Own Word, as you should well know.

I have in no way whatsoever even implied there is "a difference between God's Breath and His Own Word," as that is not what my discussion with you is about. My concern is that you are making a serious claim that cannot be backed up by Scripture. You are making the Bible say something it does not.

One more time: please provide evidence that 'When Gods Breath of life was breathed into the dust body of Adam, that "knowledge of evil" came with His Breath'.

 

[smaller]

Let's peel back the curtains, and see WHY that first LAW was delivered.

Galatians 3:19
Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

What transgressions could have POSSIBLY have transpired with Adam, prior to that LAW being delivered?

Let's ask the Mediator in Chief what happened there in the creation account, from the time the FIRST WORDS of God were spoken to the man, Adam:

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

There was the "transgression." This is WHY the law came. Because the transgression had already transpired.

Now, the exculpatory evidence for Adam, seeing what transpired from Mark 4:15. We KNOW the transgression happened, HOW it happened, or there'd have been NO LAW. Because the law was ADDED because of the transgression.

Did the natural people understand the LAW?

Nope. The first law was only spoken to Adam. Eve had not yet been removed from within Adam. How then would Eve known what the LAW was, if it was not recounted to her from Adam?

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Did Eve understand the Word not? Assuredly so:

Genesis 3:3
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

We can make a conclusion about this. A LIE and or a deception was already present with Eve. God did NOT say what Eve claimed was said. IF we observe what THE CHIEF THIEF does, then the reason this happened becomes clear. The law had to be "recounted" to Eve from Adam. IF Mark 4:15 happened, the Adam was in fact blinded to understanding, added to the command, and did not recount it accurately to Eve. There is the evidence of thievery, of blinding to the natural man by THE CHIEF THIEF who had "entered" Adam's dust ball the instant God Spoke His First Word to Adam.

Secondly, we know that Eve already had LUSTS in her own heart:

Jesus tells us that "evil" comes from within:

Matthew 15:
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts

Mark 7:
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts

Were these present within Eve as well?

Genesis 3:6
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

The above is a DIRECT OVERLAY to the writings of John the Apostle, to a T, right here:

1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Lust of the flesh: the woman saw that the tree was good for food
Lust of the eyes: pleasant to the eyes
Pride of life: desired to make one wise

LUST, LUST, PRIDE. All preconditions of Eve. Alone in that blindness? Unlikely. Let's see who is involved with lusts:

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The deceiver was where? The math is abundantly clear. In the DUST. Drawn INTO it the instant God Spoke His First Words to Adam.

The transgression went down exactly as Jesus said it did. And it started with Adam.

The law served to throw GAS on the FIRE.

IF we see Adam and Eve as "stand alone free will entities" we will not see clearly, this fact of SIN:

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Follow the Marks of The Son. He'll show anyone who is honest.

 

[smaller]

I have in no way whatsoever even implied there is "a difference between God's Breath and His Own Word," as that is not what my discussion with you is about.

Well, it certainly appeared to be the way you were headed. The LAW worketh wrath. So does Gods Breath.

My concern is that you are making a serious claim that cannot be backed up by Scripture. You are making the Bible say something it does not.

The law is for the lawless and for sinners. Your position says that sin did not dwell in the flesh of Adam? Why then the law? IT was "added" because of transgressions. What your position doesn't and won't see, is that the transgression had already transpired, prior to that law being added. Via Jesus' Disclosure in Mark 4:15.

One more time: please provide evidence that 'When Gods Breath of life was breathed into the dust body of Adam, that "knowledge of evil" came with His Breath'.

Your position, I'm sure, has a picture of Gods blowing on that dust. Here is how God blew upon the dust:

He first, created the image:

Gen. 1
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Then came THIS BREATH of LIFE:

Genesis 1:28
And God blessed them, and God said

Genesis 5:2
Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

And with that BREATH, came this FACT, immediately:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

To see only Adam is to be blind to what happened.

 

[Free]

Well, it certainly appeared to be the way you were headed. The LAW worketh wrath. So does Gods Breath.



The law is for the lawless and for sinners. Your position says that sin did not dwell in the flesh of Adam? Why then the law? IT was "added" because of transgressions. What your position doesn't and won't see, is that the transgression had already transpired, prior to that law being added. Via Jesus' Disclosure in Mark 4:15.


Your position, I'm sure, has a picture of Gods blowing on that dust. Here is how God blew upon the dust:

He first, created the image:

Gen. 1
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Then came THIS BREATH of LIFE:

Genesis 1:28
And God blessed them, and God said

Genesis 5:2
Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

And with that BREATH, came this FACT, immediately:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

To see only Adam is to be blind to what happened.

So it looks like it will remain your unsupported opinion. You ought to be careful about having such serious opinions that have no Scriptural support. That is all.

 

[smaller]

So it looks like it will remain your unsupported opinion. You ought to be careful about having such serious opinions that have no Scriptural support. That is all.

You are welcome to respond in kind, with scriptures. I have laid out the scriptural case of what happened to the DUST BALL of Adam. Mark 4:15.

And yes, this was THE PLAN of God Himself. Nothing happens in His creation, without His Own Hands upon it. God made a "natural man" and from that man is made a SECOND MAN.

1 Cor. 15:
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

There is a last Adam, Gods own son, Luke 3:38, who was "made" PART of the Body of Christ.

So I might employ some caution before tossing the first man under the bus. Or his dust ball wife. Because ALL who believe, by faith in Christ, through His Own Mercy and Grace, are taking the exact same path.

 

[Free]

You are welcome to respond in kind, with scriptures. I have laid out the scriptural case of what happened to the DUST BALL of Adam. Mark 4:15.

And yes, this was THE PLAN of God Himself. Nothing happens in His creation, without His Own Hands upon it. God made a "natural man" and from that man is made a SECOND MAN.

1 Cor. 15:
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

There is a last Adam, Gods own son, Luke 3:38, who was "made" PART of the Body of Christ.

So I might employ some caution before tossing the first man under the bus. Or his dust ball wife. Because ALL who believe, by faith in Christ, through His Own Mercy and Grace, are taking the exact same path.

Whatever case you are trying to make, it in no way supports your claim that 'When Gods Breath of life was breathed into the dust body of Adam, that "knowledge of evil" came with His Breath', so there is nothing for me to respond to.

 

[FreeGrace]

The knowledge of "good and evil" arrives from The Breath of God. It is BUILT IN, right into our own conscience. As any of us could and will at some point, attest to.

The Bible says quite different. It says that man received the knowledge of good and evil from eating of the tree with that name.

Gen 2:15-17
15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

It was ONLY after they ate from that tree did the Lord God say this:
Gen. 3:
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil

There is no verse in Genesis or any other book from the Bible that says that the breath of God included the "knowledge of good and evil".

Therefore, there is no support from Scripture regarding your claims.

 

[chessman]

If the knowledge of evil came into Adam at the breathing in of life by God, why would God have to tell him later on not to do evil??? Wouldn't he have that knowledge???

And why did God wait until He'd covered fallen Adam with a skin garment to say that Adam has come to know evil???

Genesis 3:21-22a (LEB) And Yahweh God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skin, and he clothed them. And Yahweh God said, “Look—the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil. ​