Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[smaller]

That's your invention. God did not create Adam with sinful flesh.

In 1 Cor. 15:42-47 Paul addresses, DIRECTLY, how Adam was made. Romans 8:20 tells us that the "creation" was made subject to "vanity." Unless you want to carve out Adam from "creation" which could be novel.

Romans 11:32 is just fine for the same sight:

Romans 11:
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

I doubt very much that turning up the volume will make any difference, but it does make it so crystal clear.

 

[JLB]

In 1 Cor. 15:42-47 Paul addresses, DIRECTLY, how Adam was made.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 1 Corinthians 15:42-47


The earth nor Adam had sin, as it was created by God, as good.

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:26-31


No mention of sin in the account of creation.

Sin came after Adam ate of the tree.

Every scripture you have mentioned is about after the account of creation.

Unless you can show from this account in creation here in Genesis 1, where God created anything with evil and sin, then your doctrine is false.

God did not create anything evil.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Romans 11:32 is just fine for the same sight:

Romans 11:
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. Romans 11:32


God has blinded Israel, until all the fullness of the Gentiles come in.


What does this have to do with Adam being created?


Nothing.



JLB

 

[smaller]

The earth nor Adam had sin, as it was created by God, as good.

Romans 8:
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

No exemptions in sight. Not for Adam or any man, beast or thing.

No mention of sin in the account of creation.

You seem to have inadvertently "exempted" Gods LAW from the matrix. That LAW was "do not eat." Who is the LAW for? 1 Tim. 1:9. Lawless sinners.

What is the purpose of the LAW?

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Exempting Adams flesh are we?

Sin came after Adam ate of the tree.

Sin came precisely how Jesus said it came. Mark 4:15.

Every scripture you have mentioned is about after the account of creation.

Been very specific on many counts. 1 Cor. 15:42-46 is the best, imho, showing exactly how Adam was made, "as it is written."

Unless you can show from this account in creation here in Genesis 1, where God created anything with evil and sin, then your doctrine is false.

So is your position faulted when you try to examine it solely on the basis of those few scriptures when we have an entire Bible to explain what transpired. Particularly Jesus Own Words and the scriptures of Paul, explaining how Adam was made.

God did not create anything_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ evil.

I left a little _ _ _ space in the above so you could fill in all the other creators and so your position is a little more pronounced.

 

[smaller]

God has blinded Israel, until all the fullness of the Gentiles come in.

I could have sworn it said "everyone."

What does this have to do with Adam being created?

I suppose when we rewrite Romans 11:32 NIV we can request your alteration?

 

[OzSpen]

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 1 Corinthians 15:42-47


The earth nor Adam had sin, as it was created by God, as good.

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:26-31

No mention of sin in the account of creation.

Sin came after Adam ate of the tree.

Every scripture you have mentioned is about after the account of creation.

Unless you can show from this account in creation here in Genesis 1, where God created anything with evil and sin, then your doctrine is false.

God did not create anything evil.

JLB

Well summarised JLB.

Edited by staff
Oz

 

[smaller]

Edited quote that was removed.

It is not easy setting aside a lifetime of presumptuous religious stories and suppositions. But it is very easy when fixing our eyes on God, above all things.

Deuteronomy 28:
47 Because thou servedst not the Lord thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all things;
48 Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the Lord shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.

 

[smaller]

It's a very hard thing for believers, to come to understand, as Paul did, that evil is present with us, and the sin that does assuredly dwell in our own flesh is "no more I." Romans 7:17-21.

It is even more difficult to perceive in these events, that it was God Himself who made us this way, precisely to prepare the bed of His Mercy in Christ.

Is evil then used by God for the "good" to this extent? Perhaps only to those who are led to perceive their actual real need of same. It is the Christian HOPE that God sets aside the power of evil, and "changes" us. Until that actually transpires, if we "listen" and "see" His Word, and are not led into coverups, lies, hypocrisy by that very evil present with us, we are given the Heavenly Gift of honesty before our Maker. So, again, evil serves this purpose. Honesty leading to His Mercy, ever needed. Eternally needed.

Was evil Divinely predestined to be used and deployed for these purposes? Undoubtedly. Was evil Divinely predestined to be permanently put aside? Again, undoubtedly.

The fulcrum of all adverse scriptural judgments are to be used and deployed on our own evil present. The honest, the true, will accept this conclusion, and hear LIFE, even in the Words of His condemnations and eternal judgments.

Believers will never understand how to harmonize scriptures until they take a good old fashioned hard look at these facts and apply them personally:

John 5:
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Then, along comes an honest Apostle, one led into the Revelation of Christ:

Romans 7:
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

There is no liar, no hypocrite, that will ever harmonize the above scriptures. It is impossible for them to do so. Such will two time judgment. Justify their flesh. Justify themselves. Claim God deals with their sin differently than the sins of others. Perpetually divide and bicker, which is how we arrived in the situations we are in as believers and churches to this day.

It is impossible for evil present and sin dwelling in the flesh, to concede to the terms of scripture, and bring these realities of the flesh into condemnation. It'll never happen.

God delivered Israel as a nation from the captivity of evil pharaoh. He brought them into the desert, and tried them. He brought them to "enemies" in the land, and demanded those enemies to be conquered. When they were so conquered, and they were established in their land, then God dealt with them, with the evil in their own hearts. And this, they NEVER understood. That the enemies were always "internal." The natural man can not see this.

But, as any of you who read know, I personally condemn not a one of you who has called upon Jesus to save them. Save, HE WILL. Regardless of that evil present, you WILL know His Eternal Mercy, sooner or later. It's going to happen. Because it is in His Eternal Mercy, which 'endures' forever, that we spend eternity. He has given us a basis to understand it in the here and now. That basis is the power of evil, which God Himself created for that purpose.

IF we think Paul ran away from the conclusions of Jesus here, having openly admitted before all of us, "evil, that I do":

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I would submit for your watchful consideration, how Paul took that scripture on, headlong, personally:

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Paul knew exactly where the eternal AXE was going to land, and upon WHOM.

 

[OzSpen]

It is not easy setting aside a lifetime of presumptuous religious stories and suppositions. But it is very easy when fixing our eyes on God, above all things.

That's the pot calling the kettle black.

A number of us in this thread have demonstrated from Scripture that what God created was 'very good' (Gen 1:31 ESV) and that evil was not created by God but by human beings who ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Gen 3:1-7 ESV).

But you are not listening.

Bye.

 

[chessman]

Who is the orginator of life?

Acts 3:14-15 (LEB) But you denied the Holy and Righteous One and demanded that a man—a murderer—be granted to you. And you killed the originator of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses!​

Who then, exactly, is the orginator of death?

Romans 5:12 (LEB) Because of this, just as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death spread to all people because all sinned. ​

Someone might be prone to answer the question (Who is the originator of death?) with Adam, the one man. But, Paul says death came through sin and sin through one man [Adam]. In other words, sin is the conduit of death into God's "very good" creation. Just as Adam (man) was (is) the conduit through which sin enters the world. But that's not the question! Who is the originator of death???

 

[smaller]

That's the pot calling the kettle black.

If you have never heard my confession, then hear it now. Sin dwells in my flesh, which God unswervingly condemns. Evil is present with me, which God unswervingly condemns. I stand firmly under that condemnation that Paul also stood under, and exposed in Romans 8:3. Brought himself to that same point by his quite entirely truthful personal confessions in Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:15, Romans 7:19 and Romans 7:25. I personally accept the SAME conclusions. I will say, as John said in 1 John 3:8, that sin in any form or fashion, is of the devil, as is mine. Even by the mere "thought" of it. Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Matt. 5:28.

IF this confession unnerves any reader, it should. It's mean to bring us to our knees, to receive His Mercy in Christ, by faith in Him. That faith includes 'condemnation' for that which we all bear in our own flesh. Without this basis, there is no need of His Mercy. We merely seek to justify the unjustifiable. As the common "freewillers" and "works salvation" proponents foster. But none of them can make the same truthful confessions, personally, as Paul did. NOR will any of them stand under Gods Rightful Condemnation.

1 Corinthians 1:29
That no flesh should glory in his presence.

A number of us in this thread have demonstrated from Scripture that what God created was 'very good' (Gen 1:31 ESV) and that evil was not created by God but by human beings who ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Gen 3:1-7 ESV).

You may think so. I think God meant evil for good, and is capable of making it so. Anyone who thinks the serpent, the tempter, the deceiver in the Garden was "very good" needs to take a closer look at their postures. I consider that an impossible conclusion myself. I can only say, REALLY?! The serpent was "very good?!"

How easily we are led astray, when we make such claims.

Think about that for a moment, before you say the serpent was "very good."

But you are not listening.

Bye.

If you are expecting me to conclude that the serpent was "very good" I can assure you I'll be taking a pass on that false sight.

 

[smaller]

Who is the originator of death???

Brilliant question!

Deuteronomy 32:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

The above IS the God we face.

Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

 

[JLB]

It is not easy setting aside a lifetime of presumptuous religious stories and suppositions. But it is very easy when fixing our eyes on God, above all things.

Deuteronomy 28:
47 Because thou servedst not the Lord thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all things;
48 Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the Lord shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.

Everything you claim is on the other side of the account of creation, after Adam sinned.

You refuse to acknowledge the account of creation, when the Lord created everything good.

Adam and Eve were sinless, and innocent when they were created.

The Earth and all creation, was good.

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:26-31

• Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good.

Until you can show us where within the account of creation, that the Lord God created anything with sin, you have no case.

All your scripture citing's have no bearing on the position of Adam before the fall.

Adam was created as good.

Trying to apply scriptures from Romans 7 to Adam only exposes your theory as error.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Everything you claim is on the other side of the account of creation, after Adam sinned.

There is going to be no convincing anyone who thinks about the protology field who would claim the serpent to be "very good." That is an impossible conclusion.

You refuse to acknowledge the account of creation, when the Lord created everything good.

I have said many many times that the only possible way to make that conclusion is that if Gods Own Hands are upon "everything" that transpired therein. Without God, this conclusion can not be made.

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Without God's Involvement in "all things" there is no good to be found.

Adam and Eve were sinless, and innocent when they were created.

You speak as if the dust that was formed and they were placed in was the same as the spirit of life they were given. It was NOT, nor was it meant to be.

The Earth and all creation, was good.

It still is, IN GODS OWN HANDS, working His Own Perfect Will for His Own creation. But, apart from this, not even remotely possible. We are not the creators of our own good. James 1:17

• Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good.

Until you can show us where within the account of creation, that the Lord God created anything with sin, you have no case.

Perhaps it is incumbent upon you to declare that the SERPENT was "very good." Let's hear it!

 

[JLB]

Who is the orginator of life?

Acts 3:14-15 (LEB) But you denied the Holy and Righteous One and demanded that a man—a murderer—be granted to you. And you killed the originator of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses!​

Who then, exactly, is the orginator of death?

Romans 5:12 (LEB) Because of this, just as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death spread to all people because all sinned. ​

Someone might be prone to answer the question (Who is the originator of death?) with Adam, the one man. But, Paul says death came through sin and sin through one man [Adam]. In other words, sin is the conduit of death into God's "very good" creation. Just as Adam (man) was (is) the conduit through which sin enters the world. But that's not the question! Who is the originator of death???

God created Hell.

God created Death; even the spirit or entity called Death.

Death is the spirit that works in the sons of disobedience.

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. Ephesians 2:1-3

and again

So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth. Revelation 6:8

and again

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:12-15


None of this by any means that God created Adam with sin or evil in him, as is being claimed by some.


JLB

 

[JLB]

There is going to be no convincing anyone who thinks about the protology field who would claim the serpent to be "very good." That is an impossible conclusion.

The reason you ignore the part of the bible the teaches us about the account of creation, because it exposes your unbiblical theory as error.

Adam and Eve were sinless, and innocent when they were created.

The Earth and all creation, was good.

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:26-31

• Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good.

Until you can show us where within the account of creation, that the Lord God created anything with sin, you have no case.

All your scripture citing's have no bearing on the position of Adam before the fall.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Perhaps it is incumbent upon you to declare that the SERPENT was "very good." Let's hear it!

Lucifer was also created as good and perfect in his ways, until iniquity was found in his heart.

“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you. Ezekiel 28:14-15


Show us from this account of Lucifer's creation where he was created as evil by God.


Lucifer chose of his free will, to desire to exalt himself to be as God.

Lucifer became the Enemy

Because he said in his heart...

“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
For you have said in your heart:
‘I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
To the lowest depths of the Pit.
Isaiah 14:12-15

Show us from this account of Lucifer's creation where he was created as evil by God.

Until you can show us from this account of the creation of Lucifer, whereby he was created less than perfect, you are in error.

Until you can show us from the account of creation of Adam and the account of the creation of Lucifer, where they were "created" by God as evil, or having evil within them when they were created by God, you are in error, and we must conclude your teaching is conceived by the spirit of error.

We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. 1 John 4:6

You make the same error in apply scriptures to Lucifer, after the account of him being cast out of heaven as you do to Adam after he sinned and fell.


You must prove from the account of initial creation by God, where these two were created as being flawed with evil at their initial creation.




JLB

 

[smaller]

The reason you ignore the part of the bible the teaches us about the account of creation, because it exposes your unbiblical theory as error.

Are you ready to make your confession, that the SERPENT was "very good?"

Genesis 3
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Very good you say? Coaxing, granted. Because your position demands that conclusion. I see no credible way to make the SERPENT very good. In fact we are warned adequately NOT to do this:

Isaiah 5:20
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Does the serpent have the power of darkness? Let's look!

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Yes, the serpent was "given" that power, by The Creator of "all powers."

Very good you say?

John 19:11
Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Interesting, no?

 

[smaller]

Lucifer was also created as good and perfect in his ways, until iniquity was found in his heart.

So, the serpent was PERFECT in the Garden? Is this your claim? Where do we see that exactly? The very first time the serpent is trotted out to see, in Gen. 3:1, we see the serpent, openly, as both made by God and 'subtil.' Shrewd. Deceiving. Tempting. Lying.

Very good you say? Perfect you claim? Show me. I'm from Missouri on this subject.

 

[Free]

Adam was Gods son. Luke 3:38. The law delivered in the Garden, and the facts of "who" the law is for in 1 Tim. 1:9 (lawless sinners) shows the state of Adam's flesh. Yes EVIL was present in his dust body, just as it was for Paul in Romans 7:17-21. So does Mark 4:15 apply to Adam.. So does 1 Cor. 15:42-46 apply to Adam. So does Romans 8:20 APPLY to Adam. So does Romans 11:32 apply to Adam.

See the "natural man" for what he was/is to this day:

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man was never meant to receive or know. Made that way by God Himself.

That doesn't provide evidence for your claim: "When Gods Breath of life was breathed into the dust body of Adam, that "knowledge of evil" came with His Breath."

Please provide proof from Scripture.