Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[smaller]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

I don't want to accuse you or even "put words in you mouth". Are you saying that God created man with no choice but he created to Adam to fall, sin? If that is true, then we are all puppets

Of course that was the case. Divinely so. God had absolutely ZERO intentions for Adam, the natural dust man, to live in a wet dust pile for all of eternity. He had "every intention" for a first man, "very subject to" the finite conditions of his planting, as exposed in 1 Cor. 15:42-46. There is no evading reality by crying puppet to it.

and we don't choose to love God and we don't really have faith because we were given faith by God's decree and not that God gave us a choice

There is a mistaken notion that we conjure up things that God wants and desires from us. Here is some Good News. God is not in "need" of our "produce." We can not produce anything God needs for a Divine Eternal Perfect God. A Divine Eternal Perfect God is not "in need" of anything.

James 1:13 " Let no man say when he is tempted, I AM TEMPTED OF GOD: For God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth any man. You misunderstood scripture or scripture has lied. I will go with scripture being truth.

I've seen that quote deployed many times, and it merely shows a complete LACK of understanding scripture. Here is a direct CONTRARY statement, from the scriptures, to the above:

Genesis 22:1
And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

Now one of two things can happen when we see these types of open contradictions. We can peel back the pages to find scriptural HARMONY on how two opposing statements can both be FULLY TRUE, which I believe they are, AND CAN PROVE. Or we can fall into a one sided view that can't handle the other side of the equation.

There are many such 'contrary' surface sights in the scriptures. Many. And people who fall on one side of the equation can't deal with the other side. That's how "divisions" and "sectarianism" forms to start with. A believer, predisposed to believe only freewill, will see ONLY what they think they see in the Word, but they factually can not see or deal with the other side of the equations. And conversely, those who see determinism, can not deal with the other side of the equations. The fact of scripture is that TWO CONTRARY TRUTHS can and do apply in every case of contrary scriptures, both being FULLY true. It's a difficult arena to come into understandings with.

I love James quotes because he's a set up man for us to engage our Spiritual Reasoning. Another infamous quote, by Paul, again SORELY misunderstood is that 'God is not the Author of confusion.' 1 Cor. 14:33. But we can easily find many instances where God CONFUSED people. God confused the language of the masses in Gen. 11. God confused the enemies of Israel, many many times. God confused Israel and it's people many many times.

It is quite pointless to land on one side of these equations, rather than seeking to understand the Spiritual Nature of scripture and why these "seemingly" opposing statements exist. But yes, they DO exist, and they exist for Divine Reasons. Some quite complex to unwind. I've spent decades trying to find "scriptural harmony" in scriptures that I could not find harmony with. Harmony CAN be found. And have a running checklist of things I'm still reasoning with, because some of it is extremely complex. Purposefully Hidden. Purposefully Buried.

Let's look at just one scripture, and understand the "complexity" of the matters:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

In the above we "should" be able to see a child of God, Paul, eternally secure, eternally saved. Eternal Salvation, the Spirit of Christ was "in and with Paul."

Does that fit the "whole" equation of that scripture? Of course not! We "should" also be able to see that there is another party in the flesh of Paul that is not Paul.

That party is A PUPPET. An evil puppet that can do no other thing but to RESIST GOD in Christ. It was made by God to DESTROY the flesh of man, IN SIN, by it's evil, present with Paul's flesh.

It was PREDESTINED to perform those "duties" to God, automatically RESISTING God every single time, predictably so no less.

So, by just seeing ONE MAN, Paul, using Spiritual Reasoning, we'll actually see Eternal Life and Predestined Eternal Damnation to the Lake of Fire walking in a pair of shoes.

Enjoy trying to see it. The "other party" will deny it to it's dying breath like the petty little evil puppet it is. I've seen it happen a thousand times. It's a DIRECT reflection of the reality of Gal. 4:29, Gal. 5:17.

What?! Opposition to the Spirit in my flesh? NO! "I am only the righteousness of God in Christ!"

Well, take a closer look. One of the parties in Paul's flesh was the complete opposite. Only believers in truth can "tell the truth." The other party will lie to no end like a little black raven in the mind.

 

[smaller]

The fact that God is at work in NO WAY means that man is not free in his own choices. Such a conclusion does not come from Scripture.

That is such a hollow claim. Yes, God IS at work in His creation and WILL HAVE His outcome, not "man's." There is no other "functioning freewill" in that equation other than Gods Own Will.

God will have only His Pleasures extracted from the exercises of creation. We do not even know what that might be. Only God knows the entirety of His Perfect Pleasure.

Ecclesiastes 3:11
He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

Gee, I didn't know that free will was a creature, with eyes and such. Where in the world does this kind of thinking come from? Certainly not the Bible. So, where?

What, some little wet dust pile with a built in impetus, forced into the nature of "survival of the fittest" is "free" to avoid that binding? I think not. We are 'subjects' to a huge amount of unavoidable by our freewill conditions. Placed into this quite purposefully. 1 Cor. 15:42-46.

Would you really and seriously consider being "IN" dishonor, corruption and weakness" FREE? Is that the claim of a sane person?

Free will is nothing more than opportunity to choose.

Man couldn't "choose" it's way out of a wet paper bag without Gods Own Working and Power being upon that bag to do so.

Edited by staff

 

[smaller]

Only a fool thinks they make any choice apart from Gods Workings.

Ezekiel 13:3
Thus saith the Lord God; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!

2 Corinthians 13:8
For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

There is not a person of us who can even draw our next breath, without the Working of God, being actively involved.

Matthew 10:29
Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

Acts 17:
Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Was Paul a "determinist?" Even a PRE determinist? No question about it.

"seeing he giveth to all life, and breath and all things."

Without God there would be 'nothing' here to see.

 

[FreeGrace]

That is such a hollow claim.

Anyone is free to claim anything they want to, but what I said is the truth. If there is such disagreement, how about, instead of just voicing such disagreement, actually engage by explaining HOW and WHY there is disagreement.

Yes, God IS at work in His creation and WILL HAVE His outcome, not "man's." There is no other "functioning freewill" in that equation other than Gods Own Will.

The only conclusion from your claims is that God is making all of man's choices for him. Which is nonsense, and NOT supported by Scripture.

God will have only His Pleasures extracted from the exercises of creation. We do not even know what that might be.

I'll explain what we MOST ASSUREDLY DO know. We know what He has revealed to us from His written Word.

What, some little wet dust pile with a built in impetus, forced into the nature of "survival of the fittest" is "free" to avoid that binding? I think not.

When ever did I suggest that man can choose from what he has no choice in?

Apparently my definition of free will was either missed or went over your head. Man is free to choose from available options. If that doesn't make sense to you, just ask, and I will try to boil it down further for you.

We are 'subjects' to a huge amount of unavoidable by our freewill conditions. Placed into this quite purposefully.

I have, once again, no idea what you're trying to communicate. Free will doesn't include making choices where there are no choices. Such as changing weather conditions. Or changing the color of your skin.

Those who understand what "available options" (or choices) do understand what I mean by free will.

Would you really and seriously consider being "IN" dishonor, corruption and weakness" FREE? Is that the claim of a sane person?

There are many stupid people in the world. And a great number of them CHOOSE very stupid things, all of which they are accountable for.

Man couldn't "choose" it's way out of a wet paper bag without Gods Own Working and Power being upon that bag to do so.

This isn't in dispute. The point of free will is that God has offered a free salvation in His Son, who died on the cross for mankind and gives the free gift of eternal life to those who have believed in His Son.

If there is disagreement with my statement, then show me where the error is.

I appreciate the efforts of wet paper bags to claim their own functioning.

OK, who's pulling your strings?

It's very humorous to me, when any wet paper bag tries to claim it's sole standing apart from Gods Workings.

Who on this thread has made this claim?

Edited by staff

 

[FreeGrace]

Only a fool thinks they make any choice apart from Gods Workings.

Ezekiel 13:3
Thus saith the Lord God; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!

2 Corinthians 13:8
For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

John 5:19
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

There is not a person of us who can even draw our next breath, without the Working of God, being actively involved.

Matthew 10:29
Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

Acts 17:
Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Was Paul a "determinist?" Even a PRE determinist? No question about it.

"seeing he giveth to all life, and breath and all things."

Without God there would be 'nothing' here to see.

Not one thing in this post supports your claim that God had made all the choices for man.

 

[Jim Parker]

Are you saying that God created man with no choice but he created to Adam to fall, sin? If that is true, then we are all puppets and we don't choose to love God and we don't really have faith because we were given faith by God's decree and not that God gave us a choice

Well said, dirtfarmer. You nailed it.

 

[Jim Parker]

So, God doesn't predestinate anyone to hell, a person who ends up in hell, ends up there because that's what they chose to do in refusing to heed God's call to Salvation in His Son, Christ Jesus.

Just my worth.

ANd worth at least a billion dollars!

 

[Jim Parker]

None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled."

Judas was doomed to destruction because of his choice of actions.
Judas filled the role of the friend who would betray Christ. That ROLE was prophesied in the scriptures. That the man names Judas Iscariot would fulfill that role was NOT prophesied in scripture.

Psa 41:9 Even my bosom friend in whom I trusted, who ate of my bread, has lifted his heel against me.
Jhn 13:18 I am not speaking of you all; I know whom I have chosen; it is that the scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.'

There is nothing in scripture to suggest that Judas was PREDESTINED to fill that role.

If Judas was predestined by God to betray Christ and had no choice then Judas is not guilty of any sin because God, who is sovereign and whose will no one can resist, made him do it.
And if God made Judas betray Christ then God is guilty, not Judas.
And that is the absurdity of Calvinism; since everything man does is God's sovereign, irresistible will then God is responsible for all sin and evil in the world because He commanded it. The God of Calvinism is Himself evil because he forces people to do it.

Your view of predestination makes God the only sinner and mankind just His puppets who are unable to resist what He forces them to do; you make God out to be evil, the source of all evil, and the perpetrator of all evil.
Then you call that evil thing; just and loving and merciful.
That is insanity.

 

[smaller]

Anyone is free to claim anything they want to, but what I said is the truth. If there is such disagreement, how about, instead of just voicing such disagreement, actually engage by explaining HOW and WHY there is disagreement.

The fact IS God Himself created this opposition:

Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

The flesh, speaking contrary to the Spirit, will claim it's "freedom" and "independence" from God, as it is MADE by God to do and perform, in lying opposition.

The only conclusion from your claims is that God is making all of man's choices for him. Which is nonsense, and NOT supported by Scripture.

There is no way to remove God from any equation in His creation.

I'll explain what we MOST ASSUREDLY DO know. We know what He has revealed to us from His written Word.
When ever did I suggest that man can choose from what he has no choice in?

We can both observe the adverse fleshly/spirit of disobedience activity. In the world, apparently so, and by Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:15-25, Romans 8:3, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2, 1 John 3:8. You will claim that activity is "free will," even though it is very readily apparent that's it's automatic adverse activity to the Spirit. I expect that working to lie, and claim it's free to do so when in fact it was created to be adverse by God Himself.

Apparently my definition of free will was either missed or went over your head. Man is free to choose from available options. If that doesn't make sense to you, just ask, and I will try to boil it down further for you.

There is no "choice" by man made in a vacuum void of Gods Workings or the working of that which is against the Spirit. That is where your claim goes off the rails.

I have, once again, no idea what you're trying to communicate. Free will doesn't include making choices where there are no choices. Such as changing weather conditions. Or changing the color of your skin.

Your supposition and fail to see the obvious, insisting that 'choices' are random and free will actions are unsupportable. Nothing transpires in Gods Creation apart from God. There are no 'radom choices by freewill agents' to begin with.


Acts 4:
26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

I'm also sure that every one of the players above thought they were making random "freewill choices." The fact is they were all, every last one of them, functioning under this PREDETERMINED God created fact:

Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Does God control the opposition movement? Assuredly so!

 

[smaller]

Judas was doomed to destruction because of his choice of actions.
Judas filled the role of the friend who would betray Christ. That ROLE was prophesied in the scriptures.

Psa 41:9 Even my bosom friend in whom I trusted, who ate of my bread, has lifted his heel against me.
Jhn 13:18 I am not speaking of you all; I know whom I have chosen; it is that the scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.'

There is nothing in scripture to suggest that Judas was PREDESTINED to fill that role.

If Judas was predestined by God to betray Christ and had no choice then Judas is not guilty of any sin because God, who is sovereign and whose will no one can resist, made him do it.
And if God made Judas betray Christ then God is guilty, not Judas.
And that is the absurdity of Calvinism; since everything man does is God's sovereign, irresistible will then God is responsible for all sin and evil in the world because He commanded it. The God of Calvinism is Himself evil because he forces people to do it.

I don't know how anyone can honestly look at Judas and miss the obvious other party, quite frankly:

Luke 22:3
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

John 13:27
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

Why did this happen? Because it is Gods Own Predermined Counsel, that THIS transpires:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

The Word is automatically resisted by the god of this world, who is already BLINDING the MINDS of unbelievers.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

The "resistance" to God and His Word is "built into" the flesh.

Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Does this "resistance" serve God? Assuredly so!

Acts 4:
26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

The entire RESISTANCE MOVEMENT underlined above, in every last one of the players, INCLUDING that in Judas was PREDETERMINED, as in "determined before."

Jesus was assuredly NOT executed by a coalition and series of random acts of "freewill agents" who just happened to fulfill everything that scriptures wrote of Jesus long before any of them or Jesus showed up.

IF this is not so Divinely Orchestrated by God Himself, then Jesus' death was just and merely a random and coincidental cause of "other agents". Which claim I would consider ludicrous nonsense.

 

[smaller]

Did Jesus know, in advance, that Peter would deny him, and the timing of that denial? Of course. The question IS, HOW did Jesus know?

Jesus knows, in advance, what the opposition to the Spirit DOES. God HIMSELF determined this OPPOSITION to transpire, by SPEAKING it to be so, and to come. There is nothing 'random' about it. What the opposition does, God not only knows, but DIRECTS, to do His Will, in and by RESISTING Him.

Peter could have done, by his own supposed "freewill actions" NADA to avoid that from transpiring. Because it was not just Peter involved. God Himself SPOKE in advance, what would transpire. It couldn't have been changed for ANY amounts of reasoning applied by the supposedly freewill agent, Peter, because there was no 'freewill agent' Peter to start with.

Matthew 26:34
Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

That action was entirely Divinely determined to transpire.

When the LIGHT dawned on Peter, he wept bitterly.

Matthew 26:75
And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

Apparently the "freewill agent" Peter, forgot? Or was this supposed freewill agent blinded, stolen from? Mark 4:15 shows why people 'forget' Gods Words.

 

[Jim Parker]

The question IS, HOW did Jesus know?

And the answer is: Because Jesus is God, He is also omniscient. He knows everything from the moment of creation and into all eternity.
You are conflating foreknowledge and predestination.
The fact that Jesus foreknew what Peter would do does not require that Jesus MADE Peter do it.
Jesus knew what Peter would CHOOSE to do.

If God, by His sovereign will, makes people sin then God is guilty of every sin of every human being from the Adam and Eve to the coming of the new age.
Your heretical theology makes GOD a sinner and man His mindless puppet.

 

[smaller]

Not one thing in this post supports your claim that God had made all the choices for man.

Isaiah 66:4
I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

The "flesh" can make no other choice, but to be against the Spirit, in any way possible. Gal. 5:17. Believers can pummel the wall with claims of "freedom" in that activity and it won't change that activity and what it does, one iota.

In Christ we are free. But that freedom does not extend to the flesh or it's adverse predetermined resistance activity. It is something we are to alienate ourselves from. To 'divide' from. Not claiming it is free to do as "it' pleases, in resistance to God in Christ.

We hold our freedom in Christ, in factual "adversity" to Christ, which is and remains under Christ's condemnation:

Romans 8:
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

This condemnation of Christ is removed from NO flesh of man.

 

[smaller]

And the answer is: Because Jesus is God, He is also omniscient. He knows everything from the moment of creation and into all eternity.

Knows and determines. Knowing is only part of the equation. There is no "mystery" transpiring in His creation that He Himself does not control and direct.

Hebrews 4:13
Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

You are conflating foreknowledge and predestination.

Freewill postures random actions functioning within Gods Sphere, apart from HIS Control.

Determinism, in some forms, takes the opposite view. That everything in Gods creation serves Him and His Divine Purposes and Intentions, no matter what.

The fact that Jesus foreknew what Peter would do does not require that Jesus MADE Peter do it.
Jesus knew what Peter would CHOOSE to do.

Who said it was just Peter? When freewillism looks at man, they only see MAN. That's not "how" scripture sees man. Scripture sees man in the flesh in opposition to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17. Scripture sees man in unbelief as blinded by the god of this world. 2 Cor. 4:4. Scripture sees man in unbelief "under" the power of darkness, of Satan, Acts 26:18. Scripture sees unbelieving man as walking by the spirit of disobedience that is not man. Eph. 2:2.

Can and does "freewill" account for the "resistance" of the other party(s.) No. Freewill claims are obviously quite blinded to the obvious. And that speaks to the same problems that are pointed to in the unbeliever. A general failure to account for or recognize what is really going on.

If God, by His sovereign will, makes people sin then God is guilty of every sin of every human being from the Adam and Eve to the coming of the new age.

God made the natural man for His Purposes. And those purposes are assuredly temporary only. Man in the flesh was Divinely Purposefully "bound" with the conditions in 1 Cor. 15:42-46, fully meant to die in the flesh. Death is no radom act. It is a power that God made and controls.

Your heretical theology makes GOD a sinner and man His mindless puppet.

Your positions posture themselves as itself APART from and alienated to God and His Superiority over all things, claiming your own freedom from Him. That much is certain. I consider such postures a working of the flesh in resistance to God and His Spirit. Gal. 5:17.

There is nothing "random" about either side of the debate. God MADE that resistance as well. Those who don't see it, are under it, claiming itself otherwise.

I noticed that you bypassed entirely how the random actions of all the supposed freewill agents did Gods will, before hand determined, from Acts 4. That alone would "logically" wipe out any notions of freewill. When it's denied, it's part of the "other side" of the equations, which is also determined, before hand, by God.

 

[smaller]

Christian determinism (in some forms) takes a truthful posture, that God Is Greater than any "thing" or even the sum of all things and sees "all things" as "under His Dominion" all things then Serving The Greater.

Any "thing" in His creation is quite obviously "less" than God. Any "thing" in Gods creation is not and can not be "God Perfect." That Seat is not going to any "thing" other than God Himself.

Therefore, creation, by way of comparisons is "less than His Perfect Divine and Eternal Being, which only HE can know and perceive what HE IS IN HIS ENTIRETY."

Does the "less than Perfect" serve Perfect? We can hang any thing that exists in creation as less than God Perfect, and it will all stack up the same, "as less than Gods Perfect Eternal Being."

Does God create "less than God Perfect?" Obviously so. That is creation. From there all "less than God Perfect" created things are only scaled, from the good, to the evil. From the visible to the invisible. But none of what hangs in creation is God Perfect, regardless. It's all by "created nature" less.

This should be a fairly simple concept for any "disciple" of Christ, to grasp.

John 13:16
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

The fairest description of determinism in it's better forms, is that the position understands that "all things" without exception, serve The Maker of all things.

Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Believers can make any claims they want about creation. That sin popped up all on it's own. Created itself. That evil created itself. That God was not involved with any "thing" in His creation if they personally don't care to see it that way. When they do, they have been purposefully, DIVINELY removed from seeing His Divine Sovereignty over all things.

And this too serves His Purposes. Such are meant to see only a LESSER GOD. But who can see His Entirety? No one but Himself.

Isaiah 29:16
Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

That's why the FIRST POT gets smashed. And is replaced by a Second Perfect Vessel.

1 Corinthians 15:46
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

 

[Jim Parker]

The fact IS God Himself created this opposition:
Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
The flesh, speaking contrary to the Spirit, will claim it's "freedom" and "independence" from God, as it is MADE by God to do and perform, in lying opposition.

That is some of the sorriest excuse for exegesis I have ever seen.
When God created Adam, Adam was good.
Gen 1:31 (NKJV)Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good.
It was not until Adam and Eve were deceived by the devil and sinned that their flesh lusted against the spirit.
Gen 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
They were unashamed because their flesh had not been infected with sinful lust.
Gen 3:7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.
Once their flesh was infected with sinful lust through disobedience, they became ashamed because they were no longer innocent and lust of the flesh overwhelmed love for one another. They became aware of the potential for sexual desire to be contaminated by evil.
The situation of the flesh lusting against the spirit is the result of the fall, not the way God created man, male and female, in His image and likeness.

Unless you are prepared to demonstrate where the scriptures teach that the lust of the flesh against the spirit characteristic of the image and likeness of God, your eisegesis stands refuted.

 

[Jim Parker]

Therefore, creation, by way of comparisons is "less than His Perfect Divine and Eternal Being

It is "less than His Perfect Divine and Eternal Being" but it was created "very good" (without any evil content).
Creation was not meant to be equal to God's "Perfect Divine and Eternal Being." That should be obvious to you!
Creation is not divine; it is created.
Creation is not eternal; it had a beginning and, we are told, it will come to an end and be replaced with a new heavens and a new earth. (2Pe 3:13; Rev 21:1)
Being less that God perfect divine and eternal being does not make anything evil; it just makes it other than God.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Of course that was the case. Divinely so. God had absolutely ZERO intentions for Adam, the natural dust man, to live in a wet dust pile for all of eternity. He had "every intention" for a first man, "very subject to" the finite conditions of his planting, as exposed in 1 Cor. 15:42-46. There is no evading reality by crying puppet to it.



There is a mistaken notion that we conjure up things that God wants and desires from us. Here is some Good News. God is not in "need" of our "produce." We can not produce anything God needs for a Divine Eternal Perfect God. A Divine Eternal Perfect God is not "in need" of anything.



I've seen that quote deployed many times, and it merely shows a complete LACK of understanding scripture. Here is a direct CONTRARY statement, from the scriptures, to the above:

Genesis 22:1
And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

Now one of two things can happen when we see these types of open contradictions. We can peel back the pages to find scriptural HARMONY on how two opposing statements can both be FULLY TRUE, which I believe they are, AND CAN PROVE. Or we can fall into a one sided view that can't handle the other side of the equation.

There are many such 'contrary' surface sights in the scriptures. Many. And people who fall on one side of the equation can't deal with the other side. That's how "divisions" and "sectarianism" forms to start with. A believer, predisposed to believe only freewill, will see ONLY what they think they see in the Word, but they factually can not see or deal with the other side of the equations. And conversely, those who see determinism, can not deal with the other side of the equations. The fact of scripture is that TWO CONTRARY TRUTHS can and do apply in every case of contrary scriptures, both being FULLY true. It's a difficult arena to come into understandings with.

I love James quotes because he's a set up man for us to engage our Spiritual Reasoning. Another infamous quote, by Paul, again SORELY misunderstood is that 'God is not the Author of confusion.' 1 Cor. 14:33. But we can easily find many instances where God CONFUSED people. God confused the language of the masses in Gen. 11. God confused the enemies of Israel, many many times. God confused Israel and it's people many many times.

It is quite pointless to land on one side of these equations, rather than seeking to understand the Spiritual Nature of scripture and why these "seemingly" opposing statements exist. But yes, they DO exist, and they exist for Divine Reasons. Some quite complex to unwind. I've spent decades trying to find "scriptural harmony" in scriptures that I could not find harmony with. Harmony CAN be found. And have a running checklist of things I'm still reasoning with, because some of it is extremely complex. Purposefully Hidden. Purposefully Buried.

Let's look at just one scripture, and understand the "complexity" of the matters:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

In the above we "should" be able to see a child of God, Paul, eternally secure, eternally saved. Eternal Salvation, the Spirit of Christ was "in and with Paul."

Does that fit the "whole" equation of that scripture? Of course not! We "should" also be able to see that there is another party in the flesh of Paul that is not Paul.

That party is A PUPPET. An evil puppet that can do no other thing but to RESIST GOD in Christ. It was made by God to DESTROY the flesh of man, IN SIN, by it's evil, present with Paul's flesh.

It was PREDESTINED to perform those "duties" to God, automatically RESISTING God every single time, predictably so no less.

So, by just seeing ONE MAN, Paul, using Spiritual Reasoning, we'll actually see Eternal Life and Predestined Eternal Damnation to the Lake of Fire walking in a pair of shoes.

Enjoy trying to see it. The "other party" will deny it to it's dying breath like the petty little evil puppet it is. I've seen it happen a thousand times. It's a DIRECT reflection of the reality of Gal. 4:29, Gal. 5:17.

What?! Opposition to the Spirit in my flesh? NO! "I am only the righteousness of God in Christ!"

Well, take a closer look. One of the parties in Paul's flesh was the complete opposite. Only believers in truth can "tell the truth." The other party will lie to no end like a little black raven in the mind.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

In Genesis 22:1 the Hebrew word "nissah", test, tempt, is not referring to evil testing, but a testing of faith. In Exodus 15:25 Moses was tested, tempted, by God, not to do evil but to obey God's command. Also in Exodus 16:4 the manna was also a test as to when to gather, how much to gather, and when not to gather.

1 Corinthians 14:33 as to confusion; that is about what you are trying to teach. God is a God of righteousness and holiness, but he is not the author of sin and evil as you have stated. That is the confusion that is spoken of in 1 Corinthians 14:33. James 3:11 states that fresh water and salt water cannot come from the same fountain: "Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

James 3:12 " Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

 

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hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

In Genesis 22:1 the Hebrew word "nissah", test, tempt, is not referring to evil testing, but a testing of faith. In Exodus 15:25 Moses was tested, tempted, by God, not to do evil but to obey God's command. Also in Exodus 16:4 the manna was also a test as to when to gather, how much to gather, and when not to gather.

It's the same word used in Psalm 106:14 dirtfarmer. "Tempt."

1 Corinthians 14:33 as to confusion; that is about what you are trying to teach. God is a God of righteousness and holiness, but he is not the author of sin and evil as you have stated.

God created "all things" without exception. I am not going to repeat my post on this matter when there is a superabundance of scriptures that show this fact.

Did God direct Satan in this event?

Job 1:
9 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.

Job 2:
3 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
4 And Satan answered the Lord, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
6 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand;

And what did Job say about these events?

10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?
In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

It is not a sin to make a TRUTHFUL observation, as Job did in vs. 10


You can carve out anything out of creation and claim it otherwise. The scriptures are not changing nor do the scriptures allow for "multiple" creators. That's polytheism.

Did God Author this confusion?

Genesis 11:9
That is why it was called Babel because there the Lord confused the language of the whole world. From there the Lord scattered them over the face of the whole earth.

And I'd say He was pretty effective at doing so.

 

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It is "less than His Perfect Divine and Eternal Being" but it was created "very good" (without any evil content).

Was NOT GOOD also in the Garden?

Genesis 2:18
And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Was NOT GOOD in the Garden as well? Of course.

The tempter, the deceiver, was in the Garden. It the tempter/deceiver VERY GOOD? Deception was in the Garden. Is deception VERY GOOD? Temptation was in the Garden. Is temptation VERY GOOD? A DEATH THREAT was in the Garden. Is a death threat VERY GOOD? Disobedience was in the Garden. (REPEAT OBERVATION til it hits home) The knowledge of evil was there, CREATED by God and put in the Garden. Sinful lusts were in the Garden prior to Eve's eating the fruit. Not understanding Gods Command was in the Garden. All sorts and manners of NOT GOOD whatsoever were in fact "in the Garden."

People who claim that it was all and "only all very good" can ONLY make that claim if Gods Own Hands are upon every last detail of what was in the Garden. Why? Because God works EVERYTHING for good. That is the only way it can turn out that way.

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

This does not however entail "all things" being only very good in and of themselves as this was obviously NOT the case in the Garden.

Creation was not meant to be equal to God's "Perfect Divine and Eternal Being." That should be obvious to you!

Never said it was! I said all things by their created nature are quite obviously LESS. SO WHAT if 'evil' exists in the realm of the created OBVIOUSLY LESS? All things are obviously LESS.

Creation is not divine; it is created.
Creation is not eternal; it had a beginning and, we are told, it will come to an end and be replaced with a new heavens and a new earth. (2Pe 3:13; Rev 21:1)
Being less that God perfect divine and eternal being does not make anything evil; it just makes it other than God.

I can only imagine the excuses believers toss out to let God off the hook for the creation and deployment of evil. In such actions they are merely describing a God that only exists by their personal protection of Him from the obvious. God Himself does not make the excuse case you make for Him.

Retributive evil BY GOD is a well established scriptural principle in both Old Testament and New Testament.