Did Jesus Rise On Sunday ?

[TOG]

I said, 'No confusion on my part. I can not identify the year of the Crucifixion, and I will not attempt to do so.' . . . to which you replied:

But I was talking about the Crucifixion. Maybe you were not.

I think there's quite a bit of confusion to what you say.

In Goshen, the blood of the Passover lamb was put onto the doorposts on the 14 day of the month, the 6th day of the week.

Where do you get that it was the 6th day of the week?

Christ died on the 14th of the month, the day before the Passover feast. Passover always falls on the 15th day of the month Nisan. That year, Nisan 15 fell on a Sabbath; the 7th day of the week.

You claimed that the Isrealites, when they were in Goshen, put the blood on their doorposts on the 6th day of the week. I asked you how you knew that was the 6th day of the week, and you answered by talking about the crucifixion, which didn't happen until about 1500 yeas after the event I was asking you about. That sounds very confused to me.

In talking about the Crucifixion I sited the example of Israel marking their doorposts with blood, as that event looked forward to the Crucifixion when Jesus' blood filled stripes pressed against the timbers of His cross. I sited the marking of the doorposts and lintels of the houses in Goshen because the marking took place on Aviv 14, and the Passover meal was eaten at twilight, the evening hour beginning the 15th. Death Passed Over the houses sprinkled with blood during the night hours of the 15th, and Israel departed Egypt the following morning still on the 15th. This is the type for Christ, the Lamb of God, being slaughtered on the 14th of Aviv/Nisan.

You said more than that it was on the 14th of Aviv. We all know that. You said it was on the 6th day of the week. How do you know this?

The TOG​

 

[jocor]

For me the Sadducees were correct because the revealing of it is in the NT.
The Messiah, the Firstfruits offering of the resurrection rose on the morrow after the 7th day sabbath. The Sunday after Passover and during the Days of Unleavened Bread.

That "Sunday" was Abib 16, the day all Israel historically offered the omer.

 

[jocor]

They didn't have any 'old corn' to bring over with them. They only ate manna on a day to day bases in the wilderness.
Old corn and green ears are both bad translations of the Hebrew for sure.

“And they did eat of the produce of the land on the morrow after the passover, unleavened cakes and parched corn, in the selfsame day.” Jewish Publication Society 1917

“On the day after the passover offering, on that very day, they ate of the produce of the country, unleavened bread and parched grain.” Jewish Publication Society 1985

“And they ate of the grain of the land on the morrow of the Passover, unleavened cakes and parched grain on this very day.” Judaica Press
http://www.nehemiaswall.com/truth-shavuot

"11 On the day after the Passover, on that very day, they ate some of the produce of the land, unleavened cakes and parched grain." NASB

Parched grain is green, it is not grain the is dried out for storage. The ripe green grain is parched and moist on the inside. One cannot store green grain it will rot.

Again in the Torah the Passover is never referred to as a Sabbath. Only the Day of Atonement is.

I don't see how you can use Joshua 5:10-12 to support your view since it contradicts that view. The rule according to Sunday proponents is that "the offering is made on the day after the weekly Sabbath that falls within the Feast. Abib 14 was the weekly Sabbath according to your view, but it is not part of the Feast. The weekly Sabbath that fell within the Feast would have been the 7th day of the Feast. Therefore, according to that rule, the first day AFTER the Feast would be the day the omer should have been offered. Yet, in Joshua we see it offered earlier. Please harmonize that for me.

 

[Deborah13]

I don't see how you can use Joshua 5:10-12 to support your view since it contradicts that view. The rule according to Sunday proponents is that "the offering is made on the day after the weekly Sabbath that falls within the Feast. Abib 14 was the weekly Sabbath according to your view, but it is not part of the Feast. The weekly Sabbath that fell within the Feast would have been the 7th day of the Feast. Therefore, according to that rule, the first day AFTER the Feast would be the day the omer should have been offered. Yet, in Joshua we see it offered earlier. Please harmonize that for me.

You really should read the article as it is much clearer than I can be.

In the case of Joshua, Nisan 14 would have fall on the 7th day that year. So the omar would have been lifted up the following morning.
Nisan 14 - slaughter the sacrifice at evening-twilight before the 15th started
Nisan 15 - eat and consume all before morning of the 15th
Nisan 15 - left up the omar and give offering
Nisan 15 - free to eat from the land

If Nisan 14 is on the 7th day, which it is every 7th year, and one waits until the Nisan 16 that is not the morrow of any sabbath.
The first day and last day of unleavened bread are not sabbaths. Passover is never referred to as a sabbath. At least not in the Torah.
I had to change my view on that when I read the truth. I did a word search and sure enough.

 

[Gregg]

I think there's quite a bit of confusion to what you say.

Perhaps we can agree that I am a poor communicator, and my apologies for any confusion.

You said more than that it was on the 14th of Aviv. We all know that. You said it was on the 6th day of the week. How do you know this?

Two verses identify the day after Christ was crucified, one as a Sabbath and one as a Passover:

"And when evening had come, since it was the day of Preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath" (Mar 15:42 ESV).

​

"Now it was the day of Preparation of the Passover . . ." (John 19:14 ESV).

​

Given the 2 verses above the day after Christ was crucified was both a Sabbath and a Passover.

Christ was resurrected on the 1st day of the week according to Jn 20:1. The day before was a Sabbath [always the 7th day of the week] and a Passover. The day before that Sabbath and Passover was the 6th day of the week being the day of preparation for a Sabbath and the day of preparation for the Passover, the day of Christ's Crucifixion.

Christ was resurrected on the Feast of Firstfruits [the waving of the sheaves]. That day is always the 16th day of Aviv/Nisan. Referring to the paragraph above: the day before was a Sabbath and a Passover, the 15th day of Aviv. The day before that Sabbath and Passover was the 14th day of Aviv.

So in the year that Christ was crucified [whatever year that happened to be] the day of His Crucifixion occurred on the 14th day of Aviv which coincided with the 6th day of the week.

The 6th day of the week is Friday, the 7th day of the week is Saturday, and the 1st day of the week is Sunday.

Therefore I rightfully [without confusion] proclaim that Christ was crucified on a Friday and resurrected on a Sunday.

- - -

Given that the above is true, and it is, lets consider the issue of a metaphorical 3 days and 3 nights. Since Christ's body spent a portion of Friday [after 3:00 PM but before 6:00 PM], all day Saturday, and a portion of Sunday [6:00 PM until sunrise] in the tomb then Christ must have been using the phrase "three days and three nights" (Mt 12:40) metaphorically; metaphorical in that the Hebrew counted [was permitted to include] the day with the night and the morning with the evening, even for a portion of a day.


.

​

 

[Deborah13]

jocor

I just found this Karaite calendar. This year Passover falls on the 7th day so it will be just like the Joshua 5:11 verse.
http://kjuonline.com/calendars.htm

 

[jocor]

You really should read the article as it is much clearer than I can be.

In the case of Joshua, Nisan 14 would have fall on the 7th day that year. So the omar would have been lifted up the following morning.
Nisan 14 - slaughter the sacrifice at evening-twilight before the 15th started
Nisan 15 - eat and consume all before morning of the 15th
Nisan 15 - left up the omar and give offering
Nisan 15 - free to eat from the land

If Nisan 14 is on the 7th day, which it is every 7th year, and one waits until the Nisan 16 that is not the morrow of any sabbath.
The first day and last day of unleavened bread are not sabbaths. Passover is never referred to as a sabbath. At least not in the Torah.
I had to change my view on that when I read the truth. I did a word search and sure enough.

I read the article, but the author merely came against the word "old" as being added to the text. He did not address the following facts:

"Old corn" is a translation of the Hebrew word "abuwr." The only use of abuwr in the scriptures is found in Josh.5:11,12. It is #5669 in Strong's Concordance and means, "passed, ie. kept over; used only of stored grain." Abuwr comes from "abar" meaning, "to cross over;" It is also translated as, "carry over, bring, pass over, send over." It is obvious that "old corn" refers to the "victuals" that Joshua commanded the Israelites to prepare for their journey across the Jordan in Jos.1:10-11.

This grain "crossed over" the Jordan into the promised land. Notice that "abuwr" (stored grain) of verse 11 is different from the "tebuah" (fruit/produce) of verse 12. Why two different words for produce? Because one is of stored produce and one is fresh produce.

The author also did not address my points raised in post #243.

 

[jocor]

jocor

I just found this Karaite calendar. This year Passover falls on the 7th day so it will be just like the Joshua 5:11 verse.
http://kjuonline.com/calendars.htm

I am hoping the Holy Spirit will be poured out on Shavuot again as the "latter rain" in a year when Abib 16 falls on a "Sunday" so both groups will be celebrating the same day.

 

[TOG]

Perhaps we can agree that I am a poor communicator, and my apologies for any confusion.


Two verses identify the day after Christ was crucified, one as a Sabbath and one as a Passover:

"And when evening had come, since it was the day of Preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath" (Mar 15:42 ESV).

​

"Now it was the day of Preparation of the Passover . . ." (John 19:14 ESV).

​

Given the 2 verses above the day after Christ was crucified was both a Sabbath and a Passover.

Christ was resurrected on the 1st day of the week according to Jn 20:1. The day before was a Sabbath [always the 7th day of the week] and a Passover. The day before that Sabbath and Passover was the 6th day of the week being the day of preparation for a Sabbath and the day of preparation for the Passover, the day of Christ's Crucifixion.

Christ was resurrected on the Feast of Firstfruits [the waving of the sheaves]. That day is always the 16th day of Aviv/Nisan. Referring to the paragraph above: the day before was a Sabbath and a Passover, the 15th day of Aviv. The day before that Sabbath and Passover was the 14th day of Aviv.

So in the year that Christ was crucified [whatever year that happened to be] the day of His Crucifixion occurred on the 14th day of Aviv which coincided with the 6th day of the week.

The 6th day of the week is Friday, the 7th day of the week is Saturday, and the 1st day of the week is Sunday.

Therefore I rightfully [without confusion] proclaim that Christ was crucified on a Friday and resurrected on a Sunday.

- - -

Given that the above is true, and it is, lets consider the issue of a metaphorical 3 days and 3 nights. Since Christ's body spent a portion of Friday [after 3:00 PM but before 6:00 PM], all day Saturday, and a portion of Sunday [6:00 PM until sunrise] in the tomb then Christ must have been using the phrase "three days and three nights" (Mt 12:40) metaphorically; metaphorical in that the Hebrew counted [was permitted to include] the day with the night and the morning with the evening, even for a portion of a day.


.

​

Maybe I'm not the one being clear. You mentioned the first Passover - the day the Israelites in Egypt put blood on their doorposts. That night, every first born in Egypt died, except where the blood was on the door. The next day, Moses led the Israelites out of Eypt. This took place about 3500 years ago. You claimed to know on what day of the week this happened. The Bible doesn't say or imply what weekday it was. How do you know what day of the week it was?

I konw all about the theory that Christ was crucified on Friday. It is based on a lack of understanding of the Hebrew calendar. People see the word "Sabbath" and automatically assume that it must refer to Saturday. The day after the Passover lambs were sacrificed was always a Sabbath, no matter what day of the week it was. The Friday crucifixion theory is based on a misunderstanding. But I've never heard anyone claim that the first Passover - the one in Egypt 3500 years ago - was on the 6th day of the week. I want to know how you come to that conclusion.

The TOG​

 

[Gregg]

Maybe I'm not the one being clear. You mentioned the first Passover - the day the Israelites in Egypt put blood on their doorposts. That night, every first born in Egypt died, except where the blood was on the door. The next day, Moses led the Israelites out of Eypt. This took place about 3500 years ago. You claimed to know on what day of the week this happened. The Bible doesn't say or imply what weekday it was. How do you know what day of the week it was?
I konw all about the theory that Christ was crucified on Friday. It is based on a lack of understanding of the Hebrew calendar. People see the word "Sabbath" and automatically assume that it must refer to Saturday. The day after the Passover lambs were sacrificed was always a Sabbath, no matter what day of the week it was. The Friday crucifixion theory is based on a misunderstanding. But I've never heard anyone claim that the first Passover - the one in Egypt 3500 years ago - was on the 6th day of the week. I want to know how you come to that conclusion.

It is true that the day after the Passover lamb was sacrificed was observed as a Sabbath, but the Sabbath mentioned in Mk 15:42 was a Sabbath being the 7th day of the week, and also a Sabbath for the reason above. It was a double-Sabbath, a 'high day' where 2 holy days fell on the same day.

My post #245 lays out the criteria for which I believe the LORD was crucified on the 6th day of the week [14th day of the month, a Friday] and resurrected on the following 1st day of the week [the 16th day of the month, a Sunday]. If the LORD fulfilled the Passover and the Resurrection on those specific days of the week, I believe the inaugural Passover observed in Egypt also occurred on the same day of the week; one reason as follows:

God finished His work of creation on the 6th day according to Genesis, and He rested from His work on the 7th day. While on the cross Christ said "It is finished," as God then completed the work necessary for our salvation. For that reason along with my understanding as stated in post #245, I believe the day Christ said "It is finished" occurred on the 6th day of the week, and that the following day was a Sabbath - not only a Passover Sabbath but also Sabbath being the 7th day of the week.

Also, I believe that the light spoken of in Gen 1:3 on the 1st day of the week looks forward to the Resurrection of the Son of God; which corresponds well to the Resurrection of Christ on the 1st day of the week as per my post #245.
​

- - -

Take it or leave it. Enough said on my part regarding the day of the week Christ rose from the dead, except for . . .

Christ is risen! Hallelujah!​

.

 

[TOG]

It is true that the day after the Passover lamb was sacrificed was observed as a Sabbath, but the Sabbath mentioned in Mk 15:42 was a Sabbath being the 7th day of the week, and also a Sabbath for the reason above. It was a double-Sabbath, a 'high day' where 2 holy days fell on the same day.

My post #245 lays out the criteria for which I believe the LORD was crucified on the 6th day of the week [14th day of the month, a Friday] and resurrected on the following 1st day of the week [the 16th day of the month, a Sunday]. If the LORD fulfilled the Passover and the Resurrection on those specific days of the week, I believe the inaugural Passover observed in Egypt also occurred on the same day of the week; one reason as follows:

God finished His work of creation on the 6th day according to Genesis, and He rested from His work on the 7th day. While on the cross Christ said "It is finished," as God then completed the work necessary for our salvation. For that reason along with my understanding as stated in post #245, I believe the day Christ said "It is finished" occurred on the 6th day of the week, and that the following day was a Sabbath - not only a Passover Sabbath but also Sabbath being the 7th day of the week.

Also, I believe that the light spoken of in Gen 1:3 on the 1st day of the week looks forward to the Resurrection of the Son of God; which corresponds well to the Resurrection of Christ on the 1st day of the week as per my post #245.
​

- - -

Take it or leave it. Enough said on my part regarding the day of the week Christ rose from the dead, except for . . .

Christ is risen! Hallelujah!​

.

This is what I was looking for. It is your belief, not something you know with certainty, that the first Passover was on the same day as the Passover when Jesus died, which you believe to have been on the 6th day. Thank you for clarifying that. The problem with that is that it is based only on the fact that the following day was a Sabbath. But the following day would have been a Sabbath, no matter what day of the week it was. Once we realize that we cannot conclude that the crucifixion was on a Friday based on that, there is nothing left to base that theory on.

The TOG

 

[Gregg]

This is what I was looking for. It is your belief, not something you know with certainty, that the first Passover was on the same day as the Passover when Jesus died, which you believe to have been on the 6th day. Thank you for clarifying that. The problem with that is that it is based only on the fact that the following day was a Sabbath. But the following day would have been a Sabbath, no matter what day of the week it was. Once we realize that we cannot conclude that the crucifixion was on a Friday based on that, there is nothing left to base that theory on.

The TOG

You either misunderstood [or mis-characterized] what I have said . . . greatly! So I will state again my position without further apology.

I am stating for a fact that Christ was crucified on the 6th day of the week, a Friday; and that He was resurrected on the first day of the week, a Sunday. That is not conjecture or theory on my part, as it is clearly pointed out in the Scriptures that I have given.

I am also stating for a fact that the day Christ was crucified was both the day of preparation for the weekly Sabbath and a day of preparation for the Passover Sabbath - a high or great day, a double-Sabbath. No conjecture here, as it is also clearly pointed out in the Scriptures.

I believe this [with certainty, without doubt] because it is what the Scripture teaches. I am not believing in a theory, I am accepting a truth and therefore believe it.

- - -

What I am conjecturing is that the first Passover in Goshen/Egypt occurred on the same day of the week, and the same day of the month as that of when Christ fulfilled the Passover. This conjecture [the only one I am making] is well founded, and is beyond a reasonable doubt in my understanding.


.

 

[TOG]

What I am conjecturing is that the first Passover in Goshen/Egypt occurred on the same day of the week, and the same day of the month as that of when Christ fulfilled the Passover.

Sorry for taking your post out of order, but I wanted to address this issue first. This is the only thing I said you were conjecturing (although I used different words).

You either misunderstood [or mis-characterized] what I have said . . . greatly! So I will state again my position without further apology.

I am stating for a fact that Christ was crucified on the 6th day of the week, a Friday; and that He was resurrected on the first day of the week, a Sunday. That is not conjecture or theory on my part, as it is clearly pointed out in the Scriptures that I have given.

I am also stating for a fact that the day Christ was crucified was both the day of preparation for the weekly Sabbath and a day of preparation for the Passover Sabbath - a high or great day, a double-Sabbath. No conjecture here, as it is also clearly pointed out in the Scriptures.

I believe this [with certainty, without doubt] because it is what the Scripture teaches. I am not believing in a theory, I am accepting a truth and therefore believe it.

- - -

What I am conjecturing is that the first Passover in Goshen/Egypt occurred on the same day of the week, and the same day of the month as that of when Christ fulfilled the Passover. This conjecture [the only one I am making] is well founded, and is beyond a reasonable doubt in my understanding.


.

The Friday crucifixion, whether you call it a "fact" or something else, is wrong. Jesus prophesied that he would be in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights. There are not 3 nights between Friday evening and Sunday morning, when we know he was already risen. If Jesus' prophecy didn't come true, then he was a false prophet. I don't believe he was a false prophet, so I don't believe he was crucified on Friday.

The TOG​

 

[Sinthesis]

I am also stating for a fact that the day Christ was crucified was both the day of preparation for the weekly Sabbath and a day of preparation for the Passover Sabbath - a high or great day, a double-Sabbath. No conjecture here, as it is also clearly pointed out in the Scriptures.

Where in the scriptures do you get this definition of a high or great day as being a double-Sabbath?

 

[Deborah13]

I read the article, but the author merely came against the word "old" as being added to the text. He did not address the following facts:

"Old corn" is a translation of the Hebrew word "abuwr." The only use of abuwr in the scriptures is found in Josh.5:11,12. It is #5669 in Strong's Concordance and means, "passed, ie. kept over; used only of stored grain." Abuwr comes from "abar" meaning, "to cross over;" It is also translated as, "carry over, bring, pass over, send over." It is obvious that "old corn" refers to the "victuals" that Joshua commanded the Israelites to prepare for their journey across the Jordan in Jos.1:10-11.

This grain "crossed over" the Jordan into the promised land. Notice that "abuwr" (stored grain) of verse 11 is different from the "tebuah" (fruit/produce) of verse 12. Why two different words for produce? Because one is of stored produce and one is fresh produce.

The author also did not address my points raised in post #243.

They wouldn't have had any 'old grain' to carry over with them. Where would they have gotten it from?

I think,
We see 'abuwr' and 'tebuwah' are closely related but don't mean the exact same thing. 'abuwr'=produce of the land tebuwah = produce as income of the land. Strongs # H8393
So what I propose is that we are not comparing these two as opposing each other or being of a different kind of grain old/new but the 'tebuwah' is compared to 'manna' in this verse 12. Manna as the bread given/income directly from God and when the manna stopped, when they ate of the parched grain, they income was now again from the yield of the earth.

Root word 'abu' = passing can be over, through, between, etc.
So this could mean passing from one hand to another, as in buying the grain.
It could mean passing from the earth to the harvester.
If I remember correctly, when they were in the wilderness God told them not to have anything to do with the people they encountered there. Not even to taken revenge on the Amalek that had attacked and killed the weaker of them. So I don't think they bought grain in the wilderness. And we know they didn't grow it themselves while they were in the wilderness. There is no record of them buying grain after they crossed the Jordon. They immediately observed the Passover.

Lev 23:14 `And bread [lechem] and roasted corn [qahli] and full ears [charmel] ye do not eat until this self-same day, until your bringing in the offering of your God--a statute age-during to your generations, in all your dwellings.

 

[Deborah13]

I am hoping the Holy Spirit will be poured out on Shavuot again as the "latter rain" in a year when Abib 16 falls on a "Sunday" so both groups will be celebrating the same day.

I am fully convinced that we are seeing the beginning even now. The Lord is speaking to many Jewish hearts, praise YHWH. And to gentile hearts that they realize more fully their Jewish roots.
I believe that we can have faith that we are being brought together and that when that great day comes no one will be on the wrong day. We just need to pray and be patient.

I'll take another look at your post #243 and do my best to respond.

 

[Deborah13]

I don't see how you can use Joshua 5:10-12 to support your view since it contradicts that view. The rule according to Sunday proponents is that "the offering is made on the day after the weekly Sabbath that falls within the Feast. Abib 14 was the weekly Sabbath according to your view, but it is not part of the Feast. The weekly Sabbath that fell within the Feast would have been the 7th day of the Feast. Therefore, according to that rule, the first day AFTER the Feast would be the day the omer should have been offered. Yet, in Joshua we see it offered earlier. Please harmonize that for me.

If I said that the Sabbath had to fall within the 7 days of Unleavened Bread, I was incorrect.
It is the wave offering of the Firstfruits that must fall within the 7 days. That is what I understand.
The other thing to consider is that just as the Passover lamb was a type of Christ, the Firstfruits offering was also a type of Christ. He was sacrificed as the Passover lamb, He was raised as the Firstfruits of the resurrection, on the morrow of the Sabbath.

 

[jocor]

They wouldn't have had any 'old grain' to carry over with them. Where would they have gotten it from?

I think,
We see 'abuwr' and 'tebuwah' are closely related but don't mean the exact same thing. 'abuwr'=produce of the land tebuwah = produce as income of the land. Strongs # H8393
So what I propose is that we are not comparing these two as opposing each other or being of a different kind of grain old/new but the 'tebuwah' is compared to 'manna' in this verse 12. Manna as the bread given/income directly from God and when the manna stopped, when they ate of the parched grain, they income was now again from the yield of the earth.

Root word 'abu' = passing can be over, through, between, etc.
So this could mean passing from one hand to another, as in buying the grain.
It could mean passing from the earth to the harvester.
If I remember correctly, when they were in the wilderness God told them not to have anything to do with the people they encountered there. Not even to taken revenge on the Amalek that had attacked and killed the weaker of them. So I don't think they bought grain in the wilderness. And we know they didn't grow it themselves while they were in the wilderness. There is no record of them buying grain after they crossed the Jordon. They immediately observed the Passover.

Lev 23:14 `And bread [lechem] and roasted corn [qahli] and full ears [charmel] ye do not eat until this self-same day, until your bringing in the offering of your God--a statute age-during to your generations, in all your dwellings.

The word "abar" was used about 22 times in the first 5 chapters of Joshua in reference to people and stones being passing over or crossing over the Jordan River. The grain they carried with them (abur) also crossed over the Jordan. The grain was secured from all the cities Israel conquered on the way to the promised land. You can read about them in Deut 2-3. All those cities had storehouses loaded with grain for their inhabitants. They carried over what was needed to sustain themselves until the new harvest was theirs to eat.