TOG
Member
First Fruits always falls on the first day of the week. That can be on different dates in different years.
The TOG
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Did Jesus Rise On Sunday ?
- Thread starter Lewis
- Start date
First Fruits always falls on the first day of the week. That can be on different dates in different years.
Gregg
Member
So if I can not answer an unanswerable question . . . then I can not make a claim about an answerable question?
Yes, Firstfruits always falls on the 16th of Nisan.
No confusion on my part. I can not identify the year of the Crucifixion, and I will not attempt to do so . . . except to say that it was a little less than 2000 years ago. I will firmly stand by these claims based on the day of the month that the LORD gave to observe the feasts:
Nisan 14 [a portion of the 1st day] - The death of Christ at His Crucifixion, a couple of hours before evening when that day was about to end, the day of Preparation for Sabbath
Nisan 15 [the 2nd day in total] - Passover, a Sabbath
Nisan 16 [a portion of the 3rd day] - Resurrection, Feast of Firstfruits [1st of 50 days leading to Pentecost on the 50th day]
Nisan 15 [the 2nd day in total] - Passover, a Sabbath
Nisan 16 [a portion of the 3rd day] - Resurrection, Feast of Firstfruits [1st of 50 days leading to Pentecost on the 50th day]
TOG
Member
It's not unanswerable, but if you don't know what year it was, you can't make claims about that year. Maybe you can understand an analogy better. I could say "New Years day was on a Monday the year you were born". Then you could ask me "What year was that?" I would have to say that I didn't know. Since I don't know what year you were born, I can't authoritatively state that it started on a Monday. But the question of what year you were born is not unanswerable. Once I know that year, I can find out whether it actually started on a Monday or not, but until I know what year it was, I can't know for sure what the first day was.
First Fruits is always on the same day, not on the same date.
And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When you come into the land that I give you and reap its harvest, you shall bring the sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest, and he shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, so that you may be accepted. On the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it. (Lev. 23:9-11 ESV)
First Fruits was always on the day after the Sabbath. There are always 2 Sabbaths that follow shortly after Passover - the first day of Unleavened Bread, which is Aviv 15, whatever weekday that may be, and the weekly Sabbath that comes during the feast of Unleavened Bread. Which Sabbath is being referred to?
You shall count seven full weeks from the day after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering. You shall count fifty days to the day after the seventh Sabbath. (Lev. 23:15-16 ESV)
We are told to count 50 days after the feast of First Fruits. The last of those 50 days is the day after the 7th Sabbath. The only way that works is if First Fruits is on the first day of the week.
[/quote]No confusion on my part. I can not identify the year of the Crucifixion, and I will not attempt to do so[/quote]
We weren't talking about the crucifixion. You said that the Israelites in Goshen put the blood on their doorposts on the sixth day of the week. I asked you how you knew that happened on the sixth day of the week. The year of the crucifixion has nothing to do with it. What year was the Exodus? If you don't know that, then how do you know the first Passover was on the sixth day?
Correction:
- Aviv 14 - Passover
- Aviv 15 - First day of Unleavened Bread
- Day after weekly Sabbath during Unleavened Bread - First Fruits
Deborah13
Member
Lev 23:15 `And ye have numbered to you from the morrow of the sabbath, from the day of your bringing in the sheaf of the wave-offering: they are seven perfect sabbaths;
Lev 23:16 unto the morrow of the seventh sabbath ye do number fifty days, and ye have brought near a new present to Jehovah;
This is what I understand from these verses.
The wave offering, the omar, firstfruits offering is always on the 1st day of the week, Sunday.
Nisan 16, does not always fall on the first day of the week.
This is clearly speaking of the 7th day Saturday sabbath, as there is a count of seven of them. So it is not saying that it is done on Nisan 16 every year. It's not talking about the morrow after Passover but the morrow of the next Saturday sabbath after Passover week begins.
TOG
Member
Read the rest of my post. You can also read the rest of that chapter (Lev. 23). All the festivals are listed in the order they come on the Hebrew calendar. It's obvious from the context what it's referring to.
The TOG
J
jocor
Guest
Your post does not answer my question. If you go by the order they come and stick to the context, the last day in which work was forbidden was the 7th day of unleavened. The command concerning when to offer the wave sheaf occurs after that. That would suggest the Sabbath directly after the Feast. However, Lev 23:10 says to offer it when you are ready to reap the harvest. That sounds like it is referring to offering it whenever the harvest is ready. What if it is not ready on the weekly Sabbath within the Feast? If it wasn't, wouldn't they postpone the year and do it the following month? If so, what if the harvest becomes ready prior to the rescheduled time? Shouldn't it be offered on the morrow after the Sabbath the falls right after the harvest becomes ready?
I ask these questions and offer these scenarios to show you that we do not have answers to these questions and therefore, should do it as it was historically done. Concerning this, the Jewish historian Josephus remarks in his work entitled 'Antiquities of the Jews,';
"But on the second day of unleavened bread, which is the sixteenth day of the month, they first partake of the fruits of the earth, for before that day they do not touch them. . . .They also at this participation of the firstfruits of the earth sacrifice a lamb, as a burnt-offering to [Yahweh]." (Ant.,3.10.5).
As I understand it, Yeshua kept the feasts with his parents throughout his life until he was on his own. His parents kept them as the nation did. Did he keep the feasts, including Shavuot, at the wrong time all those years until he finally got it right when he left home?
TOG
Member
Whatever it was, it was the day after the weekly Sabbath, i.e. Sunday. That's the only way the 50th day could be on the day after the seventh Sabbath.
The TOG
Deborah13
Member
This is what I have learned.
Lev 23:14 And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
Jos 5:10 And the children of Israel encamped in Gilgal, and kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the month at even in the plains of Jericho.
Jos 5:11 And they did eat of the old corn of the land on the morrow after the passover, unleavened cakes, and parched corn in the selfsame day.
Lev. shows that they were not allowed to eat the new harvest of the land until after the wave offering.
Joshua 5 shows that they did eat from the land after the passover, Nisan 14.
In between passover and eating the new grain (parched grain) they would have offered the wave offering. So that is how it is determined that the wave offering is after Passover and from Lev. on the morrow after the Sabbath.
You might have noticed that the Passover is never actually called a sabbath. That is why I believe that John was making it clear what day was being spoken about in John 19 ( a high sabbath, or great day).
This site has a really good explanation. Karaite Korner, Jewish site, not Messianic.
http://www.nehemiaswall.com/truth-shavuot
Sinthesis
Member
Feast days can have a fixed date of the month, or a fixed day of the week, but not both. Gregg is promoting the traditional Jewish reckoning for the timing of Pentecost, while TOG is utilizing the traditional Christian reckoning. The controversy exists because the date of Nisan 15 (no matter the day), and the 7th day of the week, are both sabbaths. Unfortunately the Church got the historic timeline of Pentecost wrong. Ironically this error was probably arrived at as a result of their error in fixing Jesus' crucifixion on a Friday, not that it matters to our salvation.
Gregg
Member
I can not fix the year that the original Passover in Egypt took place, but I can account for the day.
Passover does not fall on the 14th of Nisan [Aviv], as the 14th is the day of Preparation for the Passover. The Passover lamb was slaughtered on the 14th (Exo 12:6), and eaten after the evening hour ("that night" Exo 12:8), which places partaking of the Passover meal at the beginning of the 15th. This is the pattern and time-frame established for all successive Passover observances (Num 9:5).
Lev 23:5, Num 9:3 say to observe the Passover on the eve of the 14th, but those verses are not referring to the evening which begins the 14th day . . . but rather the twilight preceeding the close of that day, the evening hour which ends the 14th and begins the 15th. This is true because:
- the lamb is to be slaughtered on the 14th day, prepared, roasted, which takes several hours
- if the lamb was to be eaten on the evening beginning the 14th, then the lamb would have to be slaughtered the day before on the 13th, and that is not so.
- so, the evening that the lamb is to be eaten is that evening separating the 14th and 15th, eaten on the evening of the 15th
- if the lamb was to be eaten on the evening beginning the 14th, then the lamb would have to be slaughtered the day before on the 13th, and that is not so.
- so, the evening that the lamb is to be eaten is that evening separating the 14th and 15th, eaten on the evening of the 15th
In that the LORD prescribed in Egypt that the Passover lamb was to be slaughtered on the 14th of Aviv, so the LORD Jesus Christ was slaughtered on the 14th of Aviv/Nisan.
J
jocor
Guest
The word "complete" in the phrase "seven sabbaths shall be complete," refers to the fact that seven full days must be counted. That is why the additional instruction of verse 15 is given; to make sure seven full weeks totaling 49 completed days are counted.
The Septuagint Version reads in Lev.23:15c,16a; "seven full weeks: until the morrow after the last week you shall number fifty days." So, at least as far back as 250 B.C.E., it was believed "seven sabbaths" meant seven weeks.
The Hebrew of Lev.23:15 uses the word "shabbatot;" "seven shabbatot shall be complete." However, in Deut.16:9,10, which also directs us on how to count, the Hebrew uses "shabuah." Deut. 16:9-10, "Seven weeks [shabuah] shalt thou number unto thee: begin to number the seven weeks [shabuah] from such time as thou beginnest to put the sickle to the corn. And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks [shabuah] unto Yahweh thy Elohim with a tribute of a freewill offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give unto Yahweh thy Elohim, according as Yahweh thy Elohim hath blessed thee:"
As you can see in verse 10, this feast actually gets its name by counting weeks, not Sabbaths. Shabuah is never used in reference to the weekly Sabbath, however, shabbatt is used when referring to weeks of years in Lev.25:8; "And thou shalt number seven sabbaths [shabbatt] of years unto thee, seven times seven years; and the space of the seven sabbaths [shabbatt] of years shall be unto thee forty and nine years." Obviously, counting seven weekly sabbaths here will not suffice.
Consider also the following verses;
Ex.34:22 - "And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks [shabuah]"
Num.28:26 - "Also in the day of the firstfruits, when ye bring a new meat offering unto Yahweh, after your weeks [shabuah] be out"
2 Chr.8:13 - "and in the feast of weeks [shabuah]"
Jer.5:24 - "he reserveth unto us the appointed weeks [shabuah] of the harvest.
Num.28:26 - "Also in the day of the firstfruits, when ye bring a new meat offering unto Yahweh, after your weeks [shabuah] be out"
2 Chr.8:13 - "and in the feast of weeks [shabuah]"
Jer.5:24 - "he reserveth unto us the appointed weeks [shabuah] of the harvest.
The emphasis, when counting to Pentecost, is on seven weeks or 49 days, not on seven weekly Sabbath days.
J
jocor
Guest
Proponents of a Sunday Pentecost have tried to use Joshua 5:10-12 to prove their case. They say, since the Israelites ate of the "produce" of the promised land on Abib 15, the omer or wave sheaf had to have been offered on Abib 14 (Lev.23:14 forbade eating the produce of the land until the sheaf was offered). In their mind, that would make Abib 14 a weekly Sabbath that year; for the omer had to be offered "on the morrow after the [weekly] sabbath."
First of all, a weekly Sabbath on Abib 14 means they are not using the Sabbath "that falls within the Feast of Unleavened Bread". Abib 14 is outside the Feast. Second, their primary premise is wrong. It is assumed that since they ate the "produce" on Abib 15, the sheaf was offered on Abib 14. The truth is, in obedience to Yahweh's command, the Israelites offered the sheaf on Abib 16 but did not eat of the produce until after the sheaf was offered. According to the Mishnah, the sheaf was reaped just after the high sabbath ended and offered before 9:00 am. The Israelites were permitted to eat the produce anytime after the sheaf was offered. Therefore, they ate after approximately 9:00 am on Abib 16. That is when they "did eat of the fruit [produce - Heb. tebuwah] of Canaan" (verse 12). Once the manna had ceased on Abib 16 and the omer was offered, they ate from theproduce of the land.
If that is true, then what was it they ate on Abib 15? Josh 5:11 says they ate "old corn," "unleavened cakes," and "parched corn ." The word "corn" in "parched corn" appears in italics in the KJV which means it is not found in the Hebrew. "Unleavened cakes" is a translation of the Hebrew word "matstsah." "Old corn" is a translation of the Hebrew word "abuwr." The only use of abuwr in the scriptures is found in Josh.5:11,12. It is #5669 in Strong's Concordance and means, "passed, ie. kept over; used only of stored grain." Abuwr comes from "abar" meaning, "to cross over;" It is also translated as, "carry over, bring, pass over, send over." It is obvious that "old corn" refers to the "victuals" that Joshua commanded the Israelites to prepare for their journey across the Jordan in Jos.1:10-11. "Then Joshua commanded the officers of the people, saying, Pass through the host, and command the people, saying, Prepare you victuals ; for within three days ye shall pass over this Jordan, to go in to possess the land, which Yahweh your Elohim giveth you to possess it." The Israelites were not eating any produce from the promised land on Abib 15. They were eating provisions that were carried over the Jordan from land that was not part of their inheritance. Eventually two and one half tribes settled on the east side of Jordan where the old corn came from, but that wasn't the original land of inheritance.
In Lev.23:10-11, Yahweh makes it clear that the wave sheaf or omer must be from the harvest of "the land which I give unto you." The food that was prohibited in Lev.23:14 were foods from the harvest of the promised land. They could not eat "bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears" made from that harvest until they offered the omer. Josh.5:10-12 makes no mention of green ears [karmel], bread [lechem], or parched corn [kahlee]. It only mentions old corn [abuwr], and unleavened cakes [matstsah] that were parched.
One more point about Joshua 5:12. It states the manna ceased the day after they ate the old corn (or food that was carried over the Jordan). The miracle of the manna in Exodus 16 taught the Israelites that manna would always cease on the weekly Sabbath. Sunday Pentecost keepers claim that Abib 14 was a weekly Sabbath that year. That would mean the manna ceased on a Monday. If Yahweh is consistent, the manna of Josh.5:12 would have again ceased on the weekly Sabbath.
TOG
Member
How? Because your pastor told you? You read it somewhere on the Internet? Or do you have a reasonable explanation of how you know this date?
In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight, is the Lord's Passover. (Lev. 23:5 ESV)
The Bible says the 14th is Passover.
[qutoe] . . . but rather the twilight preceeding the close of that day, [/quote]
Right. PRECEDING the close of the day, just like you said. That means it was still the 14th, not the 15th.
The TOG
Deborah13
Member
lol. The same disputes that went on between the Pharisees, the Essences, and the Sadducees about when the count should begin, which day was the Firstfruits. 
For me the Sadducees were correct because the revealing of it is in the NT.
The Messiah, the Firstfruits offering of the resurrection rose on the morrow after the 7th day sabbath. The Sunday after Passover and during the Days of Unleavened Bread.
For me the Sadducees were correct because the revealing of it is in the NT.
The Messiah, the Firstfruits offering of the resurrection rose on the morrow after the 7th day sabbath. The Sunday after Passover and during the Days of Unleavened Bread.
Gregg
Member
I said, 'No confusion on my part. I can not identify the year of the Crucifixion, and I will not attempt to do so.' . . . to which you replied:
In talking about the Crucifixion I sited the example of Israel marking their doorposts with blood, as that event looked forward to the Crucifixion when Jesus' blood filled stripes pressed against the timbers of His cross. I sited the marking of the doorposts and lintels of the houses in Goshen because the marking took place on Aviv 14, and the Passover meal was eaten at twilight, the evening hour beginning the 15th. Death Passed Over the houses sprinkled with blood during the night hours of the 15th, and Israel departed Egypt the following morning still on the 15th. This is the type for Christ, the Lamb of God, being slaughtered on the 14th of Aviv/Nisan.
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The Julian calendar and the Roman months and weeks only serve to confuse the days that the LORD ordained since before eternity.
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Regarding this forum thread, I do not think it is proper to say Jesus rose from the dead on a Sunday, but rather 'the Resurrection of Jesus occurred on the first day of the week.' And we should say that Christ was crucified on the sixth day of the week,' the day of Preparation for the following day which was a Sabbath.
But I was talking about the Crucifixion. Maybe you were not.
In talking about the Crucifixion I sited the example of Israel marking their doorposts with blood, as that event looked forward to the Crucifixion when Jesus' blood filled stripes pressed against the timbers of His cross. I sited the marking of the doorposts and lintels of the houses in Goshen because the marking took place on Aviv 14, and the Passover meal was eaten at twilight, the evening hour beginning the 15th. Death Passed Over the houses sprinkled with blood during the night hours of the 15th, and Israel departed Egypt the following morning still on the 15th. This is the type for Christ, the Lamb of God, being slaughtered on the 14th of Aviv/Nisan.
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The Julian calendar and the Roman months and weeks only serve to confuse the days that the LORD ordained since before eternity.
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Regarding this forum thread, I do not think it is proper to say Jesus rose from the dead on a Sunday, but rather 'the Resurrection of Jesus occurred on the first day of the week.' And we should say that Christ was crucified on the sixth day of the week,' the day of Preparation for the following day which was a Sabbath.
TOG
Member
"Sabbath" doesn't meen "week", and never has. The Septuagint is a translation and, like all translations, has been affected by the doctrinal beliefs of the translators. Deborah13 provided a link to a Karaite Jewish site that explains the different calculations for the date of First Fruits, and how that leads to different dates for Pentecost. I encourage you to read the entire article, but here is a summary:
- Pharisees said that the first day of Unleavened Bread was a Sabbath ( the Bible never calls the first day of Unleavened Bread a Sabbath, but does forbid work on that day. ), and that First Fruits was on the following day.
- Sadducees kept First Fruits on the day after the weekly Sabbath during Unleavened Bread.
- Essenes kept First Fruits on the day after the weekly Sabbath that came after the days of Unleavened Bread.
The TOG
Deborah13
Member
They didn't have any 'old corn' to bring over with them. They only ate manna on a day to day bases in the wilderness.
Old corn and green ears are both bad translations of the Hebrew for sure.
“And they did eat of the produce of the land on the morrow after the passover, unleavened cakes and parched corn, in the selfsame day.” Jewish Publication Society 1917
“On the day after the passover offering, on that very day, they ate of the produce of the country, unleavened bread and parched grain.” Jewish Publication Society 1985
“And they ate of the grain of the land on the morrow of the Passover, unleavened cakes and parched grain on this very day.” Judaica Press
http://www.nehemiaswall.com/truth-shavuot
"11 On the day after the Passover, on that very day, they ate some of the produce of the land, unleavened cakes and parched grain." NASB
Parched grain is green, it is not grain the is dried out for storage. The ripe green grain is parched and moist on the inside. One cannot store green grain it will rot.
Again in the Torah the Passover is never referred to as a Sabbath. Only the Day of Atonement is.
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