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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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S
savedbygrace57
Guest
sam:
You think, one has no choice if they are born. They do not even exist until after their birth. God purposed and planned Isaac's birth before Isaac was born. Gen 17:19
And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
And so it is with all believers in Christ Gal 4:
28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
True Believers are but many Isaac's of different ethnic groups,born by God's power and promise..None of us had a choice, we did not even exist save in the Mind of God's purpose..
You think, one has no choice if they are born. They do not even exist until after their birth. God purposed and planned Isaac's birth before Isaac was born. Gen 17:19
And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
And so it is with all believers in Christ Gal 4:
28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
True Believers are but many Isaac's of different ethnic groups,born by God's power and promise..None of us had a choice, we did not even exist save in the Mind of God's purpose..
Eventide
Member
Another ridiculous statement.. Isaac is a type and picture of CHRIST.. and WE ARE NOT Christ.. we have Christ in us who was born miraculously (as Isaac was) by the power of the Holy Spirit of God after we trusted in Christ, after hearing the gospel, and after we believed.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
Now lets look at Jn chapter 6:22ff to establish the fact that Jesus Taught election.
Now we know the story, how Jesus has attracted a large following because of His Miracles of healing, and most recently the feeding of the five thousand men with five loaves and two fishes, of which afterwords the disciples gathered Twelve basketful of fragments, and hence the people wanted to crown Him King vs
15When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
Now on the next day vs
22The day following, when the people which stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was none other boat there, save that one whereinto his disciples were entered, and that Jesus went not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples were gone away alone;
With pretty much the same crowd that followed Him into capernaum, they would hear from Him a sermon, the word of God, the words His Father gave Him to speak as per Jn 12:
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
we see these words in vs 22ff and within this message we can see the word of election. Jesus knowing that the majority of His followers only followed him for having been fed, He spoke election to them in these words Jn 6:
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The word draw here, though it does denote power and influence, it does not always mean coercion or force, but a being made willing in the Day of Power, that is efficacious Grace working in us both to will and to do of God's good pleasure, which in this case is to believe in His Son 1 jn 3:
23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ,
This is the Election of Grace !
And notice Jesus gives this hard saying to unbelievers, those following him only for carnal reasons.
Basically Jesus was saying,no man can come to Him and believe in Him, rest in Him for salvation unless they have been chosen by the Father, No human being in the world, by his own freewill, has the spiritual ability to come to Him [believe in Him] other than the Father draws Him, which drawing is foundational upon His choice of them.
Now we know the story, how Jesus has attracted a large following because of His Miracles of healing, and most recently the feeding of the five thousand men with five loaves and two fishes, of which afterwords the disciples gathered Twelve basketful of fragments, and hence the people wanted to crown Him King vs
15When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.
Now on the next day vs
22The day following, when the people which stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was none other boat there, save that one whereinto his disciples were entered, and that Jesus went not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples were gone away alone;
With pretty much the same crowd that followed Him into capernaum, they would hear from Him a sermon, the word of God, the words His Father gave Him to speak as per Jn 12:
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
we see these words in vs 22ff and within this message we can see the word of election. Jesus knowing that the majority of His followers only followed him for having been fed, He spoke election to them in these words Jn 6:
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The word draw here, though it does denote power and influence, it does not always mean coercion or force, but a being made willing in the Day of Power, that is efficacious Grace working in us both to will and to do of God's good pleasure, which in this case is to believe in His Son 1 jn 3:
23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ,
This is the Election of Grace !
And notice Jesus gives this hard saying to unbelievers, those following him only for carnal reasons.
Basically Jesus was saying,no man can come to Him and believe in Him, rest in Him for salvation unless they have been chosen by the Father, No human being in the world, by his own freewill, has the spiritual ability to come to Him [believe in Him] other than the Father draws Him, which drawing is foundational upon His choice of them.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
even:
Gal 4:
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Eventide
Member
Do you know WHY ?
RoadDebris
Member
Comparing Reformed Theology with Mormonism is way over the line, Eventide. Predestination is a non-essential doctrine, the singular deity of God is not. Very, very, poor discernment on your part.
"In essentials unity; in non-essentials liberty; in all things charity" - Augustine
Eventide
Member
Why, is it a little less false than mormonism...
I know.. what difference does it make if we teach multitudes of Christians growing up today that they're the elect and that God chose them unconditionally and that it was irresistable.. and that taking up your cross and denying self is just a metaphor.. that's not too bad right..
RoadDebris
Member
What's bad is your position that all who don't agree with you on this non-essential doctrine are not saved. People are saved by grace through faith in Christ, not grace through faith plus accepting your view of election. When you insist that others must accept your point of view on election to be saved you are teaching a counterfeit gospel. That's about as bad as it gets.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
Basically Jesus was saying,no man can come to Him and believe in Him, rest in Him for salvation unless they have been chosen by the Father, No human being in the world, by his own freewill, has the spiritual ability to come to Him [believe in Him] other than the Father draws Him, which drawing is foundational upon His choice of them.
Jn 6 45 states :
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
This denotes Divine Choice, to be singled out and Taught of God, and learned of the Father, then one comes to Christ ! This results in a spiritual coming to Christ to believe and rest in Him.
This is the doctrine of election. Now many of His followers began to murmur and said "this is a hard saying vs
60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
And Jesus knowing who they were that believe not, and that Judas would betray Him, repeated the hard saying of:
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back[except the Twelve], and walked no more with him.
They were turned away mainly by what He spake of election. Jesus asked the Twelve vs
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
And Peter no doubt speaking for them all said:
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
These had been Chosen to believe Him,accept His Testimony and Be His witnesses Isa 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
They knew that Jesus had the words of eternal life, even when others did not know, why ? Because they had been Chosen Jn 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Amen, Jesus made this statement while the traitor judas was now not among them, for His choice of him was not unto salvation and fruitfulness, but merely to perform his devilish deed.. The others however had been chosen and ordained to eternal life, so they believed acts 13:
48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
They had been the witness in themselves 1 jn 5:
10a He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself:
Thats how they knew He had the words of eternal live Jn 6:68
So, Jesus teaches election !
Jn 6 45 states :
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
This denotes Divine Choice, to be singled out and Taught of God, and learned of the Father, then one comes to Christ ! This results in a spiritual coming to Christ to believe and rest in Him.
This is the doctrine of election. Now many of His followers began to murmur and said "this is a hard saying vs
60Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
And Jesus knowing who they were that believe not, and that Judas would betray Him, repeated the hard saying of:
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back[except the Twelve], and walked no more with him.
They were turned away mainly by what He spake of election. Jesus asked the Twelve vs
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
And Peter no doubt speaking for them all said:
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
These had been Chosen to believe Him,accept His Testimony and Be His witnesses Isa 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
They knew that Jesus had the words of eternal life, even when others did not know, why ? Because they had been Chosen Jn 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Amen, Jesus made this statement while the traitor judas was now not among them, for His choice of him was not unto salvation and fruitfulness, but merely to perform his devilish deed.. The others however had been chosen and ordained to eternal life, so they believed acts 13:
48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
They had been the witness in themselves 1 jn 5:
10a He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself:
Thats how they knew He had the words of eternal live Jn 6:68
So, Jesus teaches election !
It is true that no one can come to the Son unless the Father draw him, however I believe it is also true that the Father will draw every human being to His Son that will allow the Father to draw him. God is no respecter of persons, that is very clear from the bible, and also God is not willing that any perish but that all come to repentance.
The thing that really irks me about predestination folks is that they just know that THEY are one of the elect, what a huge ego,maybe you are one of those headed for hell and are deceived into thinking you are one of the elect...there really is no way of knowing except just an opinion. I am convinced I am saved because I HAD A SALVATION EXPERIENCE where I accepted Christ as Saviour. What evidence do you have that you are saved???
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
sam:
Thats all in your imagination..
Thats all in your imagination..
RoadDebris
Member
If God put the salvation of every human being as his top priority then all men would be saved.
Eventide
Member
And you talk about dishonesty and straw men.. ?
Where in the world did I ever claim that people who don't agree with me are not saved..? Is this all you got.. false accusations ?
RoadDebris
Member
You equated my theology with that of Mormonism, which is a totally heretical religion. If, as you say, my faith is not fundamentally different than Mormonism then I am not a Christian and am not saved. That is, unless you are falsely proposing that Mormonism is a genuine faith and that Mormon's are saved by their LDS association.
Hint: tone down the invective.
Eventide
Member
I didn't equate Calvinism with Mormonism.. I pointed out various theologies which have some 'special' aspect to them.. that's hardly equating them.. but then again, what else should I expect those who consistently label me as dishonest.
RoadDebris
Member
I'm calling you on the intellectually dishonest comments you're posting here and that claim is factual.
"Yes, IMO Calvinsim is one of the 'special' cases in Christendom.. but you're not alone.. there are all kinds.. like the one true church crowd, they're special.. the Saturday sabbath keepers.. another special case.. there's so many.. JW, Mormons.. they all have their special editions of the scriptures..
So at least you're not alone.." - Eventide
Keep it real, if you are able.
It seems on every forum and on all theological threads it eventually comes down to the argument over freewill. For some cannot envision not being in control to at least some degree out of fear of enabling irresponsibility. It's as If they think by believing they are not in control of their destiny, they will go out and steal and murder their fellowman without fear of accountability to God. This is an Old Testament concept.
Others embrace the thought of God being in control believing that no matter what befalls them God's purpose will be done in the end, for He is Love and Love will overcome evil.
Always this word "choice". Yet choice is life, for living is choosing every minute of everyday. So here we are arguing semantics. It matters not that we choose, but why we choose what we choose. Inevitably it comes down to, do you trust God or not. It is about trust, not choice. If you trust God, you will follow Him.
Note: God never proposed the option that a man could disobey God and live, Satan did. We all began in innocence and were right before God without the knowledge of good and evil. Obedience can exist without the option of disobedience, even as Truth exists apart form the presence of lies. So any choice regarding morality was proposed by Satan not God. Morality is defined as the proper direction that best serves the prosperity and wellbeing of the community, or Love one another.
Others embrace the thought of God being in control believing that no matter what befalls them God's purpose will be done in the end, for He is Love and Love will overcome evil.
Always this word "choice". Yet choice is life, for living is choosing every minute of everyday. So here we are arguing semantics. It matters not that we choose, but why we choose what we choose. Inevitably it comes down to, do you trust God or not. It is about trust, not choice. If you trust God, you will follow Him.
Note: God never proposed the option that a man could disobey God and live, Satan did. We all began in innocence and were right before God without the knowledge of good and evil. Obedience can exist without the option of disobedience, even as Truth exists apart form the presence of lies. So any choice regarding morality was proposed by Satan not God. Morality is defined as the proper direction that best serves the prosperity and wellbeing of the community, or Love one another.
Last edited by a moderator:
Eventide
Member
Well, we all can't be as honest as the Calvinists now can we..
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
John 10 -
Yes, Again Jesus taught election in John 10 in His parable on the Sheep !
Jn 10:
1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers
He calls them His own Sheep, and He calls them by Name, because He knows them. Why were they His own Sheep ?
Because His Father gave them Him Jn 10:
29 My Father, which gave them [The Sheep] me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
This giving denotes the Father's choice of them to the Son, in Fact, they are the ones spoken of in Eph 1:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Thats why He says in Jn 10 3-4, His Own Sheep
Note, They are His own Sheep even before conversion..
Thats why He knows us by Name, because even before conversion He owns us, and when its time for one of His Sheep to follow Him He just calls them by name like Zacchaeus lk 19:
1 And Jesus entered and passed through Jericho.
2 And, behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich.
3 And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.
4 And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way.
5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.
6 And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.
Jesus called him a Son of Abraham vs
8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Yes, He came to seek and to save the Lost Sons of Abraham, a Chosen People.
Paul wrote to the Galatians chpt 3:
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
What did Jesus say to those jews who did not believe in Him ? Jn 10:
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
They were not Chosen..
Yes, Again Jesus taught election in John 10 in His parable on the Sheep !
Jn 10:
1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers
He calls them His own Sheep, and He calls them by Name, because He knows them. Why were they His own Sheep ?
Because His Father gave them Him Jn 10:
29 My Father, which gave them [The Sheep] me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
This giving denotes the Father's choice of them to the Son, in Fact, they are the ones spoken of in Eph 1:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Thats why He says in Jn 10 3-4, His Own Sheep
Note, They are His own Sheep even before conversion..
Thats why He knows us by Name, because even before conversion He owns us, and when its time for one of His Sheep to follow Him He just calls them by name like Zacchaeus lk 19:
1 And Jesus entered and passed through Jericho.
2 And, behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus, which was the chief among the publicans, and he was rich.
3 And he sought to see Jesus who he was; and could not for the press, because he was little of stature.
4 And he ran before, and climbed up into a sycomore tree to see him: for he was to pass that way.
5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house.
6 And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully.
Jesus called him a Son of Abraham vs
8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord: Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.
9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Yes, He came to seek and to save the Lost Sons of Abraham, a Chosen People.
Paul wrote to the Galatians chpt 3:
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
What did Jesus say to those jews who did not believe in Him ? Jn 10:
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
They were not Chosen..