Did Jesus teach election ?

[savedbygrace57]

Actually God draws all men, but no one is able to come unless they're drawn.

Maybe the God you serve draws all without exception, but the God I worship and serve does not,He draws only His Chosen People, His Elect and they do come..

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Actually God draws all men, but no one is able to come unless they're drawn.

Right on the money!!!AMEN!!!!

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Maybe the God you serve draws all without exception, but the God I worship and serve does not,He draws only His Chosen People, His Elect and they do come..

The "chosen" were the Jews. The "elect" are Jewish/Gentile believers who have received Christ as Lord and Saviour...

 

[savedbygrace57]

Man comes to Christ by the Fathers drawing. What does that tell us ? That man's coming is passive. Yes he actively comes, but it is only because he is being drawn. For instance, take a bucket at the bottom of a well, the bucket cannot come up to the top of the well on its own, but another must draw it up. As it is being drawn up, for its a very deep well, it's coming up, but by whose ability ? Whose strength ? Is it coming up on its own strength and ability ? No its not. Is it kicking and screaming and resisting to come up ? No it's not. Now finally the bucket reaches the top of the well and now is going to be used for a purpose, and thats what the word draw means in Jn 6:44 and Jn 12:32

The drawing is God bringing one to Christ. When Jesus says He will draw all to Him in Jn 12:32 He means He will bring them to Himself.

The word draw is the greek word helkō and means:

metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

Now remember when Jesus said this of the other Sheep that He has Jn 10:16


16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Notice " I must bring" This word bring is the greek word agō and one of its meanings is:

to move, impel: of forces and influences on the mind

to lead, take with one

The Idea is that of an inward impel or power. Notice its inward power ? This speaks to the work of the Holy Spirit inwardly. So drawing is the New Birth, being born of the Spirit, and taught of the Spirit. Its being taught of God inwardly, with the result of coming to Christ Jn 6:45

45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

So the drawing is synonymous with Hearing, learning, and being taught of God, resulting in coming to Christ or believing in Him. For coming to Him and believing on Him are one and the same..

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Man comes to Christ by the Fathers drawing. What does that tell us ? That man's coming is passive. Yes he actively comes, but it is only because he is being drawn. For instance, take a bucket at the bottom of a well, the bucket cannot come up to the top of the well on its own, but another must draw it up. As it is being drawn up, for its a very deep well, it's coming up, but by whose ability ? Whose strength ? Is it coming up on its own strength and ability ? No its not. Is it kicking and screaming and resisting to come up ? No it's not. Now finally the bucket reaches the top of the well and now is going to be used for a purpose, and thats what the word draw means in Jn 6:44 and Jn 12:32

The drawing is God bringing one to Christ. When Jesus says He will draw all to Him in Jn 12:32 He means He will bring them to Himself.

The only problem is, your only talking about the "elect" and your not including "everyone" Because everyone is called...

The word draw is the greek word helkō and means:

metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

Now remember when Jesus said this of the other Sheep that He has Jn 10:16


16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Notice " I must bring" This word bring is the greek word agō and one of its meanings is:

to move, impel: of forces and influences on the mind

to lead, take with one

The Idea is that of an inward impel or power. Notice its inward power ? This speaks to the work of the Holy Spirit inwardly. So drawing is the New Birth, being born of the Spirit, and taught of the Spirit. Its being taught of God inwardly, with the result of coming to Christ Jn 6:45

45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

So the drawing is synonymous with Hearing, learning, and being taught of God, resulting in coming to Christ or believing in Him. For coming to Him and believing on Him are one and the same..

The only problem is, your only talking about the "elect" and your not including "everyone" Because everyone is called...

 

[savedbygrace57]

In John 6:44 - Today, 11:50 AM

The Lord Jesus Christ Himself without question proclaims the natural man's utter inability to believe on Him, for its not until the Father draws the heart by His Grace, man will not and cannot believe on the Christ of the Scripture, when one does believe, its because of Sovereign Grace Acts 18:27

27And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Coming to Christ is another way of saying Believing on His Name ! We can tell that by Christ's statement here Jn 6:35

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Notice, He that cometh to me shall never Hunger !

This is not a physical coming, but a spiritual and Jesus said this kind of coming is impossible with men, again Jesus said " No man can come to me" he has not the ability, [so where is freewill?] Paul agrees with the words of His Master Rom 8:7

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Believing on Christ is a spiritual Law or Command 1 Jn 3:23

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Hence, no man in nature, meaning merely born of a woman, can come or believe in Christ ! Christ teaches man inability to come. Sinful depraved men do not have the ability or the will to come Jn 5:40

40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Why ? Because by nature we are dead in trespasses and sins, dead in sin spiritually.

We are spiritually impotent, meaning without strength Rom 5:6

For when we[God's Elect] were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly[In Behaviour].


The free-willer does not believe this, he does not believe that the natural man is without ability to believe on Christ !

But it is what both Christ and the Apostle Paul teach ! Only a Spiritually Born Again Person can obey that Command to Believe on the Name of the Son of God 1 Jn 3:23..

And so when a Spiritually born Again Person believes on Christ, it shows that believing was not a conditioned they met to get saved, because they were already saved or Born Again..

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Agreed !

The passage also says:

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

But, we have the working of the Holy Spirit (in the world) that guides us into ALL truth. Without the Spirit, we would not "independently" seek after God. But the Spirit works to convict "ALL" men to repentance and Salvation. Some except, some reject...

 

[glorydaz]

Maybe the God you serve draws all without exception, but the God I worship and serve does not,He draws only His Chosen People, His Elect and they do come..

Why do you keep saying that....as if there is more than one God?

If you donkey-down in self-righteousness, you'll never be open to the Spriit's leading.
Put away your dogma and judgmentalism and the Lord will bless you with true understanding of His Word.

I don't doubt we worship the same God, which means we should be reasoning together...not this kind of stuff.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Why do you keep saying that....as if there is more than one God?

If you donkey-down in self-righteousness, you'll never be open to the Spriit's leading.
Put away your dogma and judgmentalism and the Lord will bless you with true understanding of His Word.

I don't doubt we worship the same God, which means we should be reasoning together...not this kind of stuff.

glorydaz---It's not that (savedbygrace57) believes in multiple gods, it's that he's inferring (by intent) that those who believe in a "personal" faith in Christ, are not true believers therefore, worship (as the Word says,) "another gospel." However, the Bible is very straight forward in it's proclamation, that faith, is what pleases God, and it's our faith that begins the process of our Salvation...Christ paid it ALL but we MUST place our faith to receive it. As you already know...

 

[savedbygrace57]

glory

Why do you keep saying that

Because its True..

 

[glorydaz]

glory



Because its True..

Of course, your saying it's true doesn't make it so. It's fine to have a strong belief, but to suggest those who don't agree with you are either worshipping some other God or preaching some other gospel is just a bit self-righteous.

Beware, lest you fall into the same trap as this Pharisee.

Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

 

[deekimbley]

i GET SO TIRED OF PEOPLE PRESUMING THAT WE THAT BELIEVE WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE ALONE DON'T TRY TO LIVE HOLY LIVES. WE DO IT BECAUSE WE LOVE HIM JUST LIKE I CARED FOR MY CHILDREN AND HUSBAND. MY HUSBAND AND I DIDN'T HAVE 1 LAW FOR EACH OTHER TO DO IN ORDER FOR US TO STAY TOGETHER. AND WE WERE MARRIED 57 YEARS. IF I PUT MYSELF UNDER THE LAW I AM UNDER A CURSE THE BIBLE SAYS. JUST REMENBER IF YOU ARE SAVED AT ALL BY WHAT YOU DO, YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO BE PERFECT. HOW DO YOU HAVE ANY PEACE? REMEMBER IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE A BIG SIN. THE FIRST TIME YOU AREN'T AS PERFECT AS CHRIST YOU ARE LOST AGAIN IF WE HAVE TO WORK FOR OUR SALVATION..TAKING A BITE OF AN APPLE DOESN'T SEEM SO BAD AND LOOK WHERE IT GOT US. I WOULD NEVER THINK OF MYSELF SO HIGHLY, AS TO THINK I WAS PARTLY EARNING MY SALVATION AFTER WHAT CHRIST WENT THRU TO GIVE IT TO ME. HE SAID IT IS FINISHED AND I BELIEVE HIM. I WOULD NOT INSULT HIM BY SAYING IT WASN'T ENOUGH.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Jesus Teaches New Birth before Faith or Believing !

Jn 6:44,65

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Come here in both of these verses means to come in Faith or Believe in Him !

Jesus is saying that man has not that natural ability !

These verses I trust are quite obviously to that conclusion, however He teaches the same Truth here Jn 6:53

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

What Jesus means here is that unless you eat or drink of Him, you give no evidence of [Spiritual] Life being in you. What Jesus is saying is that these things gives evidence of Life [spiritual] not being in them. Yes the eating and drinking is another way of saying believing on Him, or Coming unto Him or embracing Him by Faith. Jesus is implying that one needs Spiritual Life to do that, and this was a hard saying Jn 6:60

Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

You see, its only the regenerated man or woman who receives His Flesh as True Food, His Blood as True Drink Jn 6:55,56

55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Again, eating and drinking merely denotes believing in Him, embracing Him by Faith, this Jesus here expressly says, only ones in Him and He in them, by New Birth evidence such Faith in Him !

Jesus states that eating His Flesh and Drinking His Blood are EVIDENCES of Two Things, That one abides in Him, and that He abides in that one, this connection must be before the effects of one eating and drinking of Him are evidences ! So teaches teaches New Birth or Spiritual Life before Spiritual activity[eating /drinking] of Believing on Him !

 

[savedbygrace57]

Jesus Taught Election !


Not only did Christ Teach Election, but He prayed it to His Father Jn 17:9, yes though He was specifically praying to His Disciples [excluding judas] yet also for the His whole Body the Church, for which He was about to given Himself in behalf of Eph 5:25; For His Whole Church was dear to His Heart, and not just a few, and this is settled in Christ's words in Jn 17:20

20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Note : Shall believe means they must believe or they are determined to believe through their word, determined by God's Decree !

Because all the Father gave Him [The Election] shall believe in Him through their word [the scriptures] as they themselves had believed in Him and had received His words. In fact this is referenced in Ps 22:30-31

30A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

31They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

Yes, Just as Christ had declared His Father's Name to His Spiritual Brethren, those born of God Heb 2:12 cp Jn 17:6,26; and they will in likewise Preach His Name to their Spiritual Brethren Ps 22:31, so Christ prays only for an Elect Seed, in all succeeding generations, and thats another way Christ Taught Election !

 

[Stormcrow]

Don't know how many times it must be stated: Israel was God's chosen ("elect") people! The church is not Israel, though true Israel is part of the church, and is where the church started!

We live in the age of boundless grace, where Jesus says, "Whosoever will may come!"

This incessant navel gazing over moot doctrines is a waste of time and energy. Get over it, people!

 

[Stormcrow]

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 3:10-18 is quoted directly from several Psalms, and it is quoted in a chapter that starts this way:

Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it? May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, "THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS, AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED." But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? The God who inflicts wrath is not unrighteous, is He? (I am speaking in human terms.) Romans 3:1-5 (NASB)

This entire chapter simply affirms the whole idea that the Jews (Israel) were God's elect! They were given the Law, the Temple, and the Kingdom of God here on earth. Their unbelief gave way for Gentiles to be adopted as sons.

The whole idea of election was destroyed with the Law on the cross. Here is what it means to live in the "new heavens and new earth":

The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost. Revelation 22:17 (NASB)

The gates of heaven are open for anyone who wants to enter, provided they do so through Jesus.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Don't know how many times it must be stated: Israel was God's chosen
("elect") people!

The Church and Israel are the same ! Israel is Spiritual, the One that God has Chosen.