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Did Jesus teach election ?

IMO Jesus draws all men to Himself simply because of their core needs.. Light, water, bread, etc.. And of course all of these physical need are illustrations of our deepest need.. And that being fellowship with God, our Creator and sustainer of life..

Kind of like Rebekah, she met God at the well, an there she found the deepest need of her heart and mind completely met in her husband to be.. And she willingly left all she had behind in simple faith, trusting that the messenger was true in everything he told her of his master.
 
savedbygrace57 said:
And the thing that probably caused the most anger to these His hearers,was that He made it clear that God chose gentiles to bestow these blessing on ,even when their were many in Israel that needed those same blessings..
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Simplistic assessments of workings of God do not apply.

If you or any are a believer, you should understand that God STILL actively works against and is 'not for' the evil that resides in the hearts of 'all and any' regardless of their race.

It is however also up to God to raise whatever vessel in the lump that He sees fit.

In the end, for a believer, we understand that it is Gods ELECTION as to which to raise. These are not matters in the control of men.

If you observe this same premise in our world today, you will see perpetual division on all fronts. That is in fact Gods Way today to keep people and powers utterly divided and continually frustrated and warring. This action is God participating in our world today, continuing to show the validity of His Words presentations in the text about the construction of all mankind.

Everyone in fact has a 'vessel of dishonor' raised within them when they SIN. The fact that 'believers' also have such vessels is identified by Paul in 2 Tim. 2:21 for any who care to read the fact.

So, when you speak of the 'anger demonstration' above or when you read of other accounts of such as in the stoning of Stephen, you are in fact seeing the 'reactions' of the vessels of dishonor in people.

God deals with those vessels and not nicely at all.

On the other hand, the woman favored by Elijah or Naman the prophet are a showing of the vessel of honor being raised and favored by God. Again, these remain Gods sole choices.

If you read about Elijah's attendant, you will also see a converse working of a vessel of dishonor in that man and how harshly God dealt with him.

The lesson here for everyone whom God Elects to listen is to be HONEST and TRUTHful about our own conditions in this present life.

We all have a vessel of dishonor. That vessel is Satan, the TEMPTER.

It is he, the evil one from whom we are to personally divide from. Only God can show the reality of this matter to anyone. Those not elected to hear will DENY this fact, and in reality it is the tempter denying his presence in such people/believers.

When anyone, any believer, reads this text and hears a voice within them saying 'that didn't happen to you because you are a believer' it is in fact the tempter already covering your MIND to the FACTS and you are also factually being blinded by that entity to what Jesus clearly taught.

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

So you see dear HisSheep, it was not the people, but the reaction of the TEMPTER in them. You do not apparently see this and you can not and will not until you understand the voice that says 'I AM IMMUNE' from this teaching of Jesus is in fact the tempter entering into such people and DENYING the fact.

When one comes of of the ground of darkness, they will immediately see the location of the TARE:

Matthew 13:26
But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

Who are the tares? Again, Jesus tell us clearly who the tares are.

Matthew 13:38
The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one.

Who is the wicked one you ask? Why, the TEMPTER!

Jesus gave us many many examples of the TARE within MANKIND. It is not just the people alone.

Children of God realize that the vessel of dishonor is the TEMPTER in their MINDS and HEARTS inserting EVIL therein and stealing Word from us.

When we spring from the ground of darkness we see the location of the tare.

And where might that be? Why in our own 'ground.' Growing right next to us in OPPOSITION to God, which also gives us very good reason to FEAR GOD.

This is the beginning of Wisdom. To FEAR our MAKER, knowing that the tempter is also being dealt with IN US.

Believe or not is not up to me. Any child in Truth will come to this knowledge if GOD SO ELECTS them to hear.

otherwise they remain in darkness as God sees fit to keep them there.

NOW you may apply this understanding to 'election' and you will see a completely different picture...a more accurate one.

Not my call.

s
 
1 Jn 3:23

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Now it cannot be denied that to believe on the Name of the Son of God, which is the Lord Jesus Christ that it is a command, a commandment of God. When Paul Paul responding to the question of the Philippian Jailor " What must I do to be saved", He said Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved ! Now the word believe here is the greek word pisteuo, a verb meaning:

to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
of the thing believed
to credit, have confidence

And it's an imperative:

The imperative mood corresponds to the English imperative, and expresses a command to the hearer to perform a certain action by the order and authority of the one commanding.

Now that we have established the fact from the authority of scripture that to believe on Christ is a command of God, what is equally true and shall be established by scripture is that the mind of the flesh [an unregenerated person] is hostile to God, and it does not submit to God's Law or Command, and that it cannot, for it is without the ability Rom 8:7-8


7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

They that are in the flesh, of which all are by nature, cannot please God, and is not subject [obey] to the law of God or the command of God.

Now if faith pleases God which Heb 11:6 seems to imply Heb 11:6

6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

And when we do as God commands, that is well pleasing in His sight 1 Jn 3:22-23

22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

And being in the flesh simply means not born again, being only born of a woman and out of Adam, the corruptible seed, how is it then, with all this scripture evidence, that men teach Faith of Believing in Christ comes before being born again of the Spirit or New Birth ? Why do men falsely teach that men have the ability to believe on Jesus Christ for Salvation, when scripture says they cannot ! Christ says they cannot Jn 6:44 !
 
savedbygrace57 said:
Ye have not Chosen me but I have Chosen you !

The Lord Jesus Christ taught Election when the night preceding His Death He said to His disciples [excluding judas who was not at this time among them having gone to betray Him] Jesus said these words Jn 15:16

16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

The word chosen here is the greek word eklegomai and it means:

to pick out, choose, to pick or choose out for one's self

a) choosing one out of many, i.e. Jesus choosing his disciples

b) choosing one for an office

of God choosing whom he judged fit to receive his favours and separated from the rest of mankind to be peculiarly his own and to be attended continually by his gracious oversight

of God the Father choosing Christians, as those whom he set apart from the irreligious multitude as dear unto himself, and whom he has rendered, through faith in Christ, citizens in the Messianic kingdom: (James 2:5) so that the ground of the choice lies in Christ and his merits only

And it is a middle voice verb denoting choosing for oneself.

This choice of them was more than just for a office, but to bear spiritual fruit, which means salvation is involved, and its noteworthy that at this time judas the traitor, who was also chosen for the office, was not among them when Jesus made this statement, because judas was not chosen to bear fruit which involves salvation

Chosen in order that they may bring forth fruit. Now what is The Fruit Jesus is speaking of in this connection ? The word fruit is the greek word karpos and it means:

that which originates or comes from something, an effect, result

to gather fruit (i.e. a reaped harvest) into life eternal (as into a granary), is used in fig. discourse of those who by their labours have fitted souls to obtain eternal life

Jn 4:34-36

34Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

35Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

36And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

Fruit here means souls that are turned from error and embrace Christ through the Gospel Ministry as say Acts 26:17-18

17Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

18To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

So they were Chosen Laborers in the vineyard of other Chosen Souls Lk 10:1-2

1After these things the LORD appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

2Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.

So Jesus taught Election unto Salvation here in Jn 15:15, If He chose them to bear fruit, the converting of souls. Only saved men receive such a honor and call. And the whole Church, body of Christ, was Chosen for One another in the cause of Christ.[/QUOTE/}
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savedbygrace57---Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Grubal---Jesus was not speaking to the, "elect" here, but to the "chosen disciple's." We have to read according to context and He's clearly speaking,of and only to His Disciple's. We cannot correlate from that verse (that would be a stretch) that, that's the way God chooses the so-called elect...There's no obvious connection there...
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Jn 6:44

No Man can come to Christ by nature is what Jesus is saying here, that is why Faith is the gift of God[Eph 2:8], and the fruit of the Holy Spirit [Gal 5:22] working in one both to will and to do of His Good Pleasure ! Phil 2:13

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Now, is to believe on Christ to do of God's good pleasure ? Yes it is, who would have the nerve to deny that ?

It is the good pleasure of the Spirit for those Christ redeemed by His blood for them to believe in Him !

Before man can come to Christ or believe on Him, they are the same, one must be taught of God Jn 6:45

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

This is what is meant by the Father drawing a man to Christ. Notice how in vs44 the drawing of the Father results in coming to Christ, and now in vs 45 the Teaching of God and having learned of the Father results in coming to Christ.

See the Power of God manifested in dealing with one before they come to Christ or believe in Christ ?
 
Mar 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.


Are we to go into all the world and preach the gospel? The context here is Christ talking to the disciples.
 
savedbygrace57 said:
Jn 6:44

No Man can come to Christ by nature is what Jesus is saying here, that is why Faith is the gift of God[Eph 2:8], and the fruit of the Holy Spirit [Gal 5:22] working in one both to will and to do of His Good Pleasure ! Phil 2:13

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Now, is to believe on Christ to do of God's good pleasure ? Yes it is, who would have the nerve to deny that ?

It is the good pleasure of the Spirit for those Christ redeemed by His blood for them to believe in Him !

Before man can come to Christ or believe on Him, they are the same, one must be taught of God Jn 6:45

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

This is what is meant by the Father drawing a man to Christ. Notice how in vs44 the drawing of the Father results in coming to Christ, and now in vs 45 the Teaching of God and having learned of the Father results in coming to Christ.

See the Power of God manifested in dealing with one before they come to Christ or believe in Christ ?
Click to expand...

savedbygrace57---No Man can come to Christ by nature is what Jesus is saying here, that is why Faith is the gift of God[Eph 2:8], and the fruit of the Holy Spirit [Gal 5:22] working in one both to will and to do of His Good Pleasure ! Phil 2:13

Grubal---Our human "mustard seed faith must be utilized first, then God gives us Christ's faith in order for us to be saved. Remember the story in the Bible about the man who said, Lord I believe help my unbelief. The man knew instinctively that his faith was weak, and needed help from Christ...The fruit of the Holy Spirit is what's created within us after the Holy Spirit indwells us.

savedbygrace57--- For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Grubal---True, but only "after" we've put our "mustard seed faith" in Christ and have been "Born-again by the Spirit of God...

savedbygrace57---Now, is to believe on Christ to do of God's good pleasure ? Yes it is, who would have the nerve to deny that ?

Grubal---Yes, the Word says, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved...Now pay close attention to the word, "Believe" that's something which has to come from man to begin the process...

savedbygrace57---It is the good pleasure of the Spirit for those Christ redeemed by His blood for them to believe in Him !

Grubal---Of course, that is the work of the Holy Spirit. We still must be willing to put our faith in Christ and the Holy Spirit leads us into being re-born Spiritually...

savedbygrace57--- Before man can come to Christ or believe on Him, they are the same, one must be taught of God

Grubal---Faith comes be hearing and hearing by the Word of God, that's true...

savedbygrace57---This is what is meant by the Father drawing a man to Christ. Notice how in vs44 the drawing of the Father results in coming to Christ, and now in vs 45 the Teaching of God and having learned of the Father results in coming to Christ.

Grubal---john12:32 says, "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw "ALL" peoples to myself." We are ALL drawn to Christ but not ALL will put their faith in Christ...

Grace+faith+nothing...
 
New Nature and Heart needed First !

Before a man or person can come to Christ, and remember this means believe on Him, because the Old Nature of the Flesh is enmity towards God Rom 8:7

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Therefore man must first be given a New Nature before coming or believing. Also because man's heart by nature is foolish and darkened by sin, a New Heart must be given before man can come. Man must be a New Creation before he can come.

Lets look at a scripture about mans heart by nature Eph 4:18

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

We have by nature a blindness of heart, this heart cannot believe in Christ.

The natural heart is wicked and deceitful Jer 17:9


9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

This kind of heart cannot believe into the Light, which is Christ ! Jn 12:36

While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

This imperative cannot be done by darkness, which we ware all by nature Eph 5:8

For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

The heart that believes as in Rom 10:9-10

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This is a New Heart given by Covenant Mercy Ezk 36:26

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Now it's this New Heart of Flesh that obeys the command to Believe on Christ, its the man with a new nature or spirit that has been put within that Believes on Christ.

That word spirit in Ezk 36:26 " a new spirit will I put in you" that word also means mind, a new mind will I give you.

Thats needed because the mind we have by nature is what ? Its enmity against God and His Christ Rom 8:7

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


So a New Heart, a New Mind Spirit or Mind is absolutely necessary before one can believe on Christ !
 
savedbygrace57 said:
New Nature and Heart needed First !

Before a man or person can come to Christ, and remember this means believe on Him, because the Old Nature of the Flesh is enmity towards God Rom 8:7

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Therefore man must first be given a New Nature before coming or believing. Also because man's heart by nature is foolish and darkened by sin, a New Heart must be given before man can come. Man must be a New Creation before he can come.

Lets look at a scripture about mans heart by nature Eph 4:18

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

We have by nature a blindness of heart, this heart cannot believe in Christ.

The natural heart is wicked and deceitful Jer 17:9


9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

This kind of heart cannot believe into the Light, which is Christ ! Jn 12:36

While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

This imperative cannot be done by darkness, which we ware all by nature Eph 5:8

For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

The heart that believes as in Rom 10:9-10

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This is a New Heart given by Covenant Mercy Ezk 36:26

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Now it's this New Heart of Flesh that obeys the command to Believe on Christ, its the man with a new nature or spirit that has been put within that Believes on Christ.

That word spirit in Ezk 36:26 " a new spirit will I put in you" that word also means mind, a new mind will I give you.

Thats needed because the mind we have by nature is what ? Its enmity against God and His Christ Rom 8:7

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


So a New Heart, a New Mind Spirit or Mind is absolutely necessary before one can believe on Christ !
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With all due respect, you have the cart before the horse here. First you must put your little bit of human faith into the mix then God gives you the "Faith of Christ" in that order of things...
 
savedbygrace57 said:
And being in the flesh simply means not born again, being only born of a woman and out of Adam, the corruptible seed, how is it then, with all this scripture evidence, that men teach Faith of Believing in Christ comes before being born again of the Spirit or New Birth ? Why do men falsely teach that men have the ability to believe on Jesus Christ for Salvation, when scripture says they cannot ! Christ says they cannot Jn 6:44 !
Click to expand...

John 6:44 is correct, as is John 12:31-33. All men are drawn, but not all will come. "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die."

I'm wondering how, in light of your statement above, you would explain Mathew 8..." 8The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. 9For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. 10When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel."
 
Grubal Muruch said:
With all due respect, you have the cart before the horse here. First you must put your little bit of human faith into the mix then God gives you the "Faith of Christ" in that order of things...
Click to expand...

Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
 
reba said:
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Click to expand...

This is where faith comes in and the power of the Gospel message. Rom. 10:17 - "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

We hear, we believe, and we seek. All through God's mercy and grace.

Hebrews 11:6 - "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
 
How many time was the Word spoken around you before you heard it.... Something like how many times did ya walk through the TV area and grumble because Billy Graham was preaching... I see it like this my spiritual ears were closed He opened my 'ears' to hear....

Our salvation is in/ of Him. He is our Rock He is our fortress we are sinners saved by His unmerited Mercy and Grace.
 
reba said:
How many time was the Word spoken around you before you heard it.... Something like how many times did ya walk through the TV area and grumble because Billy Graham was preaching... I see it like this my spiritual ears were closed He opened my 'ears' to hear....

Our salvation is in/ of Him. He is our Rock He is our fortress we are sinners saved by His unmerited Mercy and Grace.
Click to expand...

And how was it your spiritual ears were opened? I don't think anyone would deny that God works in a person's life to prepare him to hear and respond to the Gospel message. But does He only make that effort for a select few?
 
glorydaz said:
John 6:44 is correct, as is John 12:31-33. All men are drawn, but not all will come. "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die."

I'm wondering how, in light of your statement above, you would explain Mathew 8..." 8The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. 9For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. 10When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel."
Click to expand...

AGAIN, AMEN AND AMEN!!!
 
reba said:
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Click to expand...

reba---Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Grubal---This Scripture tells us that, ALL men are unrighteous in their fleshly state. And, we gather from this fact, that no man can stand before a righteous God, without first having his sins paid for, and be "Spiritually Born-again" through their faith in Christ as Lord and Saviour...
 
Grubal Muruch said:
reba---Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Grubal---This Scripture tells us that, ALL men are unrighteous in their fleshly state. And, we gather from this fact, that no man can stand before a righteous God, without first having his sins paid for, and be "Spiritually Born-again" through their faith in Christ as Lord and Saviour...
Click to expand...

Agreed ! :)

The passage also says:

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
 
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