Did Paul keep the Law...?

[Georges]

Could be...but, still for me...Paul doesn't add up. What he preached (if it the Letters are truely his) and what his actions (Acts) seem to show are very inconsistent...

Didn't the Lord's actions also seem that way to those with a hardened heart? And they crucified him. What did Jesus say to Saul on the road to Damascus: "Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?" (ACTS:9:4)

Klee, I don't know what/if anything to Paul on the Damascus road...which of the different accounts are you referring to? As I've had this discussion with Thessalonian, Paul had no witnesses to confirm what was said....When I had this discussion with Thess, it was under the topic of who was the leader of the Church (Peter or James). The extrabiblical book the "Gospel of Thomas" states that Jesus told Peter, James, and John to go seek James (the brother of Jesus), to lead them. The point being, according to Jewish Legality, 2 or more witnesses need to be present in order to verify a truth. Did Paul have witnesses confirming what was said?


While Paul's actions may well have been inconsistent (I cannot judge for myself) why persecutest Jesus in condemning Paul?

I'm not persecuting Jesus, just questioning Paul's motives.

Did not Saul condemn other's to death who believed contrary to what was considered society's truth of the day?

Paul, acting under the High Priest's (Sadducean) order began rounding up Pharisee Christians who posed a threat to the High Priest. Jesus was a threat to the High Priest (Sadducee's). The Pharisee's would have had no problem with Jesus as the Messiah. Paul's persecution of the believer's was political ambition.....

I'm not judging you as having a hardened heart; but I needed to use those words for my example.

That's fine.....

But if Paul promoted falsely......what has he gained?

By this logic, do you believe I am also lost because I believe in the Jesus Paul promoted?

Klee, that is not for me to judge.....and I don't....

Am I damned for coming to Jesus?

I accept Jesus as the Messiah of God....am I damned? I don't think so....and neither I think you are....however, I think everyone needs to take a serious look at how God is to be worshiped....either by Pauline Christianity, or Jewish Christianity.....IMO

He has gained me for the Lord and others. Though we may not have all the truth, he has gained the more for the Lord to transform into His righteousness.

That's fantastic....now honor God by following Christ's example of following Torah as it applies to your situation.

That is the only truth I know about Paul's works, whether he promoted falsely or not will be revealed to all on the Last Day.

I think you are right my friend on that account....

Klee, The Torah was given to Israel so they could be the example to the nations....The Torah was given to Israel with the intent that they (Israel) will be the light to the Gentile nations....

Isn't Jesus supposed to be the only light we follow though? Not Paul, not Torah, not other religious doctrines, but the light which exists inside Christ?

Again, Jesus followed Torah....IMO, we should copy him as THE example...
in doing so, we too are lights to the unbelievers...

I will have to disagree with what you say on that point. James, Peter and the Jerusalem elders taught and required obedience to God's will by ....Torah observence. James, Peter and the boys met face to face with Jesus (did Paul?) after the resurrection....yet they still practiced Judaism...who got it right?

I have not met Jesus either and yet I still believe and follow. :wink: Is Paul so wrong for being inspired like every other Christian since the death of Jesus?

Jesus preached Torah obedience, Paul of the Letters apparently taught Torah abstinence....If you believe that Paul supercedes Jesus as Thessalonian does, then maybe you are right....I'm not so sure.

Are we to ignore the Spirit and only obey men - the men who believe that Torah is God and we cannot have a relationship with Him by any other means?

You are falling into the wrong line of thought on that....King David loved the Torah (as I pointed out in another thread) and had a great relationship with God.....Jesus obeyed the Torah and had the ideal relationship with God.

God is telling Peter to break down that man-made traditon of not eating with Gentiles....however God maintains (expects Torah to be observed by righteous men). Cornelius, knowing Jewish dietary law, would have prepared a Kosher meal for Peter...

I put it to you that man-made tradition comes from the belief of man. So by taking Torah (or any other doctrine) and applying your belief to it, it hencefourth becomes man-made. If we live through the Spirit though, we hear and obey only what God inspires us to.

I agree with your first statement...As to your second statement, only if it agrees with Torah principle....if the "Spirit" tells you something that is not "Tanach verified", it ain't the Spirit of God inspiring you....it's another spirit...If what Paul preaches can be verified in the Tanach, it it's kosher, if not....it's not the spirit of God coaching him....

For example, I hear the Spirit say that I cannot judge you for your beliefs and I obey. I could create a man-made belief through Pauls' teachings however, and say I have the right to judge you according to what Paul said about truth. Can you see how you can do the same with Torah and the Apostles who met Jesus?

What you say in your first statement is true and seen in the Chruch today (they've become as bad as the Jews of old. Church tradition has become as bad as Jewish man made tradition.). Obviously, the Rabbis did create man made law, however, Jesus, James, Peter and the elders insist on Torah Law only.

The contradiction is that other's who believe in what Paul said are misguided, and yet others who believe what Peter and the other Apostles said (over Paul) was inspired of God and therefore truth.

That's the way I see it...

Jesus said himself that he is not good, but His Father in heaven is only good. Therefore anything of God is good until man puts his ownership upon it and says this is my truth.

I agree with your statement...

If you or I function from that then we are both misguided.

agreed...

I cannot speak on behalf of Paul or the Apostles; but I do see where they pointed to - the Lord. In this they were righteous men. :D

I guess time will tell.....

 

[wavy]

I hope I have interpreted your statement correctly, but didn't Paul escape death by stoning and fleeing his captors when the prison walls which held him fell down, as well as escape death by sea and viper?

In these times he didn't submit himself to injustice, rather he faced it as God inspired him to.

In those cases he wasn't under Roman jurisdiction. So he can't use Roman law to save himself.

What other Roman Jew appealed to Caesar to override Jewish Tradition?

He didn't appeal to anything, he was just speaking the truth.

So why suddenly stop at the Torah and Moses? If you can accept that Abraham was able to follow Gods' will without the Torah, why do you find it so hard to believe that anyone can follow God's will today without the Torah?

Who said he stopped there? I'm just saying further revelation doesn't void previous revelation.

Abraham was able to follow his will without true knowledge of Yeshua too. Doesn't mean we should restrict ourselves to what he knew.

But can I ask where exactly you believe Paul was contrary to what was written in the Law?

I do not believe he was contrary to the written law.

 

[Klee shay]

Hello again Georges. I am enjoying this discussion. :D

Klee, I don't know what/if anything to Paul on the Damascus road...which of the different accounts are you referring to?

The only account I know of is contained in Acts chapter 9. I have a King James Bible. This is where Paul loses his sight and it is used as a testimony when he is healed by a disciple called Ananias, whom the Lord has appeared to in a vision.

The point being, according to Jewish Legality, 2 or more witnesses need to be present in order to verify a truth. Did Paul have witnesses confirming what was said?

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in they way as thou camest, hast sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

So Saul had a vision that a man named Ananias would come to heal him ACTS 9:12, and Ananias had a vision from the Lord that he would go to heal Saul ACTS 9:11-12 - therefore two testimonies.

There is also ACTS 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

If we are to doubt the authenticity of ACTS, are we to doubt all scripture contained in the bible also?

I'm not persecuting Jesus, just questioning Paul's motives.

No harm in questioning anyone's motives in the bible at all. Whatever Paul's motives however, can you deny the Spirit which saved him from stoning, sea and snake bight? If you cannot see what Paul did as good, then see the works which the Lord wrought through Paul as good.

Can I ask if you believe ACTS 9:15-16 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

No matter what Paul's intentions; can you not see the Lord at work through him at any point in time?

Paul, acting under the High Priest's (Sadducean) order began rounding up Pharisee Christians who posed a threat to the High Priest. Jesus was a threat to the High Priest (Sadducee's). The Pharisee's would have had no problem with Jesus as the Messiah. Paul's persecution of the believer's was political ambition.....

Who Saul was before being touched by the Lord is for everyone to read about in the bible, it's not hidden. Even Paul himself confesses to his sins of the past so he does not pretend to hide it either. If you doubt Paul after his baptism of the Holy Spirit however, then you doubt the work which was wrought on the cross. Even Jesus walked with Judas knowing his ultimate betrayal, but He did not doubt his Father in the baptism Judas had taken with all his disciples.

Paul has not betrayed Jesus being the Son of God - full of grace, mercy and forgiveness for all who believe. If he has done anything wrong then it will be revealed on the Last Day but in denying the Lord - no, he has suffered for his name's sake.

I accept Jesus as the Messiah of God....am I damned? I don't think so....and neither I think you are....however, I think everyone needs to take a serious look at how God is to be worshiped....either by Pauline Christianity, or Jewish Christianity.....IMO

True, but often human eyes can only see things of the flesh. :wink:

That's fantastic....now honor God by following Christ's example of following Torah as it applies to your situation.

I already obey Torah if I follow Jesus.

Again, Jesus followed Torah....IMO, we should copy him as THE example...in doing so, we too are lights to the unbelievers...

I am not a light my friend. I am a fallen man (or woman in my case). :wink: Nothing I do will be good - obedience or disobedience. For it is written in scripture that there is none that is good except our Father in Heaven.

The light which will reach out to unbelievers is God. If you truly believe that God has the power to dispense his Spirit at Will then surely you can believe He can reach out to an unbeliever in ways beyond the simple Torah?

You have one understanding and I have another. With this diversity surely God can gain the more to see the sacrifice of His Son?

Jesus preached Torah obedience, Paul of the Letters apparently taught Torah abstinence....If you believe that Paul supercedes Jesus as Thessalonian does, then maybe you are right....I'm not so sure.

I thought Jesus taught beyond Torah obedience though? This logic of Jesus only taught obedience, brings us back to the hardness Jesus came to shatter in the first place. I don't believe Paul taught Torah abstinence in such clear terms. He taught beyond Torah obedience as Jesus did.

The grace of God can cover all men now through the sacrifice of His Son. Do you believe this? If so, why persecute those who chose not to follow Torah in such clear terms as you or others follow?

Are you persecuting the message that Paul delivered of a means beyond Torah to find God?

You are falling into the wrong line of thought on that....King David loved the Torah (as I pointed out in another thread) and had a great relationship with God.....Jesus obeyed the Torah and had the ideal relationship with God.

Perhaps I am falling into the wrong line of thought - it wouldn't be the first time. :wink: I thought David and Jesus only loved God not Torah? They may have obeyed Torah but their hearts rejoiced only for their Father in Heaven.

I agree with your first statement...As to your second statement, only if it agrees with Torah principle....if the "Spirit" tells you something that is not "Tanach verified", it ain't the Spirit of God inspiring you....it's another spirit...If what Paul preaches can be verified in the Tanach, it it's kosher, if not....it's not the spirit of God coaching him....

Can I ask specifically what you believe Paul taught, which cannot be verified in the Tanach? Thanks.

Hope you enjoyed your Holidays with family and friends over Easter. :D

 

[Klee shay]

Hello again Wavy.

In those cases he wasn't under Roman jurisdiction. So he can't use Roman law to save himself.

In the case of being killed at sea and being bitten by a snake once they reached land, what jurisdiction was he under then? He was being transported to Rome so what jurisdiction was he under. Did Roman law save him in the end though?

He didn't appeal to anything, he was just speaking the truth.

He did appeal to Caesar; in fact if he hadn't of appealed to Caesar then he would have been freed by the court which heard him infront of His Jewish accusers, on the road to Rome remember. If he hadn't of appealed to Caesar then that court would have freed him.

Who said he stopped there? I'm just saying further revelation doesn't void previous revelation.

Abraham was able to follow his will without true knowledge of Yeshua too. Doesn't mean we should restrict ourselves to what he knew.

Just to make sure I don't misrepresent your thoughts on the matter; are you saying we shouldn't restrict ourselves to what Abraham knew, but we should restrict ourselves to what Moses came to reveal in the Torah?

I do not believe he was contrary to the written law.

Are you in agreement with the OP on the subject matter of this discussion? Georges believes that Paul was in err to the message he delivered. Do you believe the same? Just making sure I know where you're coming from that's all. :D

 

[Georges]

Hello again Georges. I am enjoying this discussion. :D

Klee, I don't know what/if anything to Paul on the Damascus road...which of the different accounts are you referring to?

The only account I know of is contained in Acts chapter 9. I have a King James Bible. This is where Paul loses his sight and it is used as a testimony when he is healed by a disciple called Ananias, whom the Lord has appeared to in a vision.

Paul recounts the story in Acts and Galations...both are different...Ananias receives a vision that Paul was coming....he didn't witness Paul's actual conversion (light and words).

The point being, according to Jewish Legality, 2 or more witnesses need to be present in order to verify a truth. Did Paul have witnesses confirming what was said?

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in they way as thou camest, hast sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Even if Ananias is one...who is the other? Also, Luke is recounting the story...

So Saul had a vision that a man named Ananias would come to heal him ACTS 9:12, and Ananias had a vision from the Lord that he would go to heal Saul ACTS 9:11-12 - therefore two testimonies.

I'm following you but not sure you can count them together as 2 witnesses...I would think that you would need Paul (the person it happened to, Ananias (1 witness) and X (the second witness). Again, there were other's who were traveling with Paul, but as the story goes the versions are different.

There is also ACTS 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

and then again....

Act 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.


and the question of time from conversion until his arrival in Jerusalem...

If we are to doubt the authenticity of ACTS, are we to doubt all scripture contained in the bible also?

Anything associated with Paul should be scrutinized...if what he say jives with the OT great, if not....

I'm not persecuting Jesus, just questioning Paul's motives.

No harm in questioning anyone's motives in the bible at all. Whatever Paul's motives however, can you deny the Spirit which saved him from stoning, sea and snake bight? If you cannot see what Paul did as good, then see the works which the Lord wrought through Paul as good.

I will not suggest anything good or bad concerning the spirit....I only have what is written in black and white....and history to question who and what Paul was....

Can I ask if you believe ACTS 9:15-16 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Klee, if any of the evidence is tainted.....how much can you believe?

No matter what Paul's intentions; can you not see the Lord at work through him at any point in time?

As I suggested, if it doesn't jive the with church at Jerusalem, or more importantly the OT, then it is suspect.

Paul, acting under the High Priest's (Sadducean) order began rounding up Pharisee Christians who posed a threat to the High Priest. Jesus was a threat to the High Priest (Sadducee's). The Pharisee's would have had no problem with Jesus as the Messiah. Paul's persecution of the believer's was political ambition.....

Who Saul was before being touched by the Lord is for everyone to read about in the bible, it's not hidden.

Klee, what isn't so easy to see is the history between the pharisees and the sadducees and the politics of the day....just for kicks, read the wikipedia.com article on the Nazarene/Ebionite Christians (decendents of the Church at Jerusalem) and read their account of Paul....

Even Paul himself confesses to his sins of the past so he does not pretend to hide it either.

He is a clever man....

If you doubt Paul after his baptism of the Holy Spirit however, then you doubt the work which was wrought on the cross.

Not so.....the work at the cross was exemplified by the works and faith of the Nazarene Christians of Jerusalem...

Even Jesus walked with Judas knowing his ultimate betrayal, but He did not doubt his Father in the baptism Judas had taken with all his disciples.

Was the spirit with the other disciples before the ascension?

Paul has not betrayed Jesus being the Son of God - full of grace, mercy and forgiveness for all who believe. If he has done anything wrong then it will be revealed on the Last Day but in denying the Lord - no, he has suffered for his name's sake.

He suffered for something.....and it will be judged right or wrong as you say.

I accept Jesus as the Messiah of God....am I damned? I don't think so....and neither I think you are....however, I think everyone needs to take a serious look at how God is to be worshiped....either by Pauline Christianity, or Jewish Christianity.....IMO

True, but often human eyes can only see things of the flesh. :wink:

yup......

That's fantastic....now honor God by following Christ's example of following Torah as it applies to your situation.

I already obey Torah if I follow Jesus.

Ideally, yes...all Christians should honor God that way.

Again, Jesus followed Torah....IMO, we should copy him as THE example...in doing so, we too are lights to the unbelievers...

I am not a light my friend.

I am a fallen man (or woman in my case). :wink:

I won't hold that against you..... ha ha. :bday:

Nothing I do will be good - obedience or disobedience. For it is written in scripture that there is none that is good except our Father in Heaven.

True....but the difference between Pauline Christianity and Petrine Christianity, is that Paul (Gnostic Paul) see's the world and man in a fallen state (inherited sin). Judaism essentially see's man in a righteous state (corruption enters into ones life). God, through the Torah gives us written guidelines to overcome the sin that we incur.

The light which will reach out to unbelievers is God.

I think it is God through believers who will be the light....

If you truly believe that God has the power to dispense his Spirit at Will then surely you can believe He can reach out to an unbeliever in ways beyond the simple Torah?

Yes...I do believe that...but if one has the Torah, what better way to get to know the mind of God then by following it's guidelines.

You have one understanding and I have another. With this diversity surely God can gain the more to see the sacrifice of His Son?

Jesus preached Torah obedience, Paul of the Letters apparently taught Torah abstinence....If you believe that Paul supercedes Jesus as Thessalonian does, then maybe you are right....I'm not so sure.

I thought Jesus taught beyond Torah obedience though?

No....he didn't. If you obey Torah, you love God and your neighbor....Jesus preached against the man made laws that Judaism was pushing.

This logic of Jesus only taught obedience, brings us back to the hardness Jesus came to shatter in the first place. I don't believe Paul taught Torah abstinence in such clear terms. He taught beyond Torah obedience as Jesus did.

That would have been James and the boys in Jerusalem....Paul of the Acts maybe, Paul of the letters.... :-?

The grace of God can cover all men now through the sacrifice of His Son. Do you believe this? If so, why persecute those who chose not to follow Torah in such clear terms as you or others follow?

Good question....why did Jesus have to be sacrificed?

Are you persecuting the message that Paul delivered of a means beyond Torah to find God?

Only that it appears in the Letters that Paul teaches Torah abstenence. Paul teaches a Gnostic/Mystery Religion God/Man Sacrificed Messiah. This is not the same Messiah that Jesus promoted himself to be or that the Apostles of the Church at Jerusalem preached.

You are falling into the wrong line of thought on that....King David loved the Torah (as I pointed out in another thread) and had a great relationship with God.....Jesus obeyed the Torah and had the ideal relationship with God.

Perhaps I am falling into the wrong line of thought - it wouldn't be the first time. :wink: I thought David and Jesus only loved God not Torah?

Check out the thead I had started in the other forum..."Was King David Stupid", and you will see how he felt about Torah....David and Jesus loved God and they loved God's Law....

They may have obeyed Torah but their hearts rejoiced only for their Father in Heaven.

They did both......Jew rejoice in the fact they have "God's Word" in the instruction on how to live righteously......Klee, who would be stupid enough to disregard the instruction manual to righteousness.

Look at it this way....

I have a model airplane....If I don't have the instructions to build it, or I throw them away, or regard them as faulty, how am I ever going to build that airplane?

Same thing with the Torah's instruction on righteous living.

I agree with your first statement...As to your second statement, only if it agrees with Torah principle....if the "Spirit" tells you something that is not "Tanach verified", it ain't the Spirit of God inspiring you....it's another spirit...If what Paul preaches can be verified in the Tanach, it it's kosher, if not....it's not the spirit of God coaching him....

Can I ask specifically what you believe Paul taught, which cannot be verified in the Tanach? Thanks.

Klee, if you PM me with an email address, as I have said in other posts I am critiquing a work fom a colleage of mine who has researched this area extensively...I would gladly send you (free, as he would like other critques) what he has developed....it is very good and thought provoking.....I would say, it would open anyones eyes.....the chapters are in word format...

Hope you enjoyed your Holidays with family and friends over Easter. :D

I did and hope you did as well....BTW Easter...bad word....Resurrection Day.... 8-)

Thanks for the chat...you throw some tough questions out there...

 

[Klee shay]

Paul recounts the story in Acts and Galations...both are different...Ananias receives a vision that Paul was coming....he didn't witness Paul's actual conversion (light and words).

Can you provide me with the scriptures in Galations where it differs from Acts. I am interested in reading contradictions if they are there.

Even if Ananias is one...who is the other? Also, Luke is recounting the story...

The other being the Holy Spirit. If Jesus came to Ananias in a vision and Ananias did as the Lord asked, then surely the fact that Paul was spared from the death at sea and the vipers bight, testifies that what Jesus spoke to Ananias was true?

What Jesus said to Ananias in his vision and what the Holy Spirit did during Pauls' walk aligned.

ACTS 9:15-16 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Did Paul (through the Holy Spirit) 1. bear the Lord's name before the Gentiles, Kings and children of Israel; and 2. shew Paul how great things he must suffer for the Lord's name's sake? Was Paul therefore a chosen vessel indicative of the fruits of the Spirit which align with Jesus' words to Ananias in the beginning?

While I'm interested in finding the contradictions of Pauls' revalations in the bible and looking further into this matter, I cannot deny the works of the Lord in this man.

I'm following you but not sure you can count them together as 2 witnesses...I would think that you would need Paul (the person it happened to, Ananias (1 witness) and X (the second witness). Again, there were other's who were traveling with Paul, but as the story goes the versions are different.

Correct me if I'm wrong because I'm a little hazy on my recollection of the specific scripture I'm thinking of, but didn't Jesus count himself in the testimony that he was the Son of God? God had testified of Him and Jesus testified of Himself also...and this was deemed sufficient as 2 witnesses.

I'll have to go hunting in my bible for that scripture as I know it helps when having a discussion if you can provide scriptual evidence.

There is also ACTS 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

and then again....

Act 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

Interesting. I'll have to read up on this further.

I'm not persecuting Jesus, just questioning Paul's motives.

Fair enough...

I will not suggest anything good or bad concerning the spirit....I only have what is written in black and white....and history to question who and what Paul was....

Fair enough also, but can we deny that the Lord used Paul as His chosen vessel? If we cannot deny this then we must discern history with the Holy Spirit. For this was the measure Jesus used and Paul indeed did as Jesus intended; even if Paul had other intentions. I don't know if Paul had other intentions but surely if we cannot see him as a new creation in Christ, then we doubt the works Christ wrought in him also?

Klee, if any of the evidence is tainted.....how much can you believe?

Perhaps this is the test of the Gentile? To find the Lord in the message Paul was sent to preach, just as the test of the Jew was to find the Lord in the message Moses was sent to preach.

]No matter what Paul's intentions; can you not see the Lord at work through him at any point in time?

As I suggested, if it doesn't jive the with church at Jerusalem, or more importantly the OT, then it is suspect.

If it is suspect then individuals should delve deeper but not at the expense of discrediting the *Lord's* works through Him. You've mentioned several times to read up on the history surrounding Paul's time; and while I can do this and find a fallen man; do I then use that information to read the bible differently?

My spirit cannot judge Paul because the history of the time says to doubt his intentions. If Jesus said he is a chosen vessel then I believe that truth more than anything history can recite about Paul.

At the same time however, I am not adverse to listening to logic. If there are flaws in the construction of the bible, they should be highlighted as the Spirit would want no less.

Paul, acting under the High Priest's (Sadducean) order began rounding up Pharisee Christians who posed a threat to the High Priest. Jesus was a threat to the High Priest (Sadducee's). The Pharisee's would have had no problem with Jesus as the Messiah. Paul's persecution of the believer's was political ambition.....

What you say is true of the man Saul before Jesus chose a new path for Paul. While I can believe the lust for power would still tempt his Earthly flesh from time to time, I think it was clear that he followed the lead of the Lord as much as was possible. This is the struggle in the flesh we are all subject to.

I must say however that Jesus is teaching me a new appreciation for obedience. I can see how obeying a certain set of rules with a sense of love for the one who wrote them can actually open the heart up more, as before I thought it was merely used as a form of "control" over people.

He is a clever man....

Absolutely, but didn't Jesus use it to His best advantage though, LOL. :wink: Jesus needed a clever man with the knowledge of deceit for the means of gaining power, to convert those who dealt in the same.

Not so.....the work at the cross was exemplified by the works and faith of the Nazarene Christians of Jerusalem...

Agreed to a certain extent. Beyond that however, wasn't it the will of God which worked through the Holy Spirit to gain the more? The work on the cross is exemplified by the works and faith of one Nazarene - Jesus. This is the route of salvation. Whoever adopts that faith and subsequent works, is a servant of one master - God; and cannot gain it by anyone else's faith or belief.

Was the spirit with the other disciples before the ascension?

Not in the sense that we know the Spirit today. What they had was the baptism of John, by water. Jesus was subject to the same baptism as were his disciples. This was the work of his Father I was talking about which Jesus did not doubt in Judas, even though he was to betray him.

Judas was chosen as Paul was chosen as all His disciples were chosen - are any of them good?

That's fantastic....now honor God by following Christ's example of following Torah as it applies to your situation.

I already obey Torah if I follow Jesus.

Ideally, yes...all Christians should honor God that way.

One of the things Jesus is teaching me lately is perseverance. In amongst all the bad examples around of what we shouldn't do in the name of the Lord, we also shouldn't become discouraged or feel threatened - as this demonstrates the same lack of faith which we see in others.

Perseverance is a tough ask sometimes. :angel: :evil: :o

I am not a light my friend.

I am a fallen man (or woman in my case). :wink:

I won't hold that against you..... ha ha. :bday:

LOL. :

True....but the difference between Pauline Christianity and Petrine Christianity, is that Paul (Gnostic Paul) see's the world and man in a fallen state (inherited sin). Judaism essentially see's man in a righteous state (corruption enters into ones life). God, through the Torah gives us written guidelines to overcome the sin that we incur.

If we weren't fallen why does mankind even need a Saviour?

Yes...I do believe that...but if one has the Torah, what better way to get to know the mind of God then by following it's guidelines.

Torah would be great if life was a textbook and we all attended the same school. For those whose lives do not read like a textbook, they need a Saviour to show them the mind of God.

This does not nullify Torah as a means to know God but it merely makes God more accessible for those who struggle with obedience.

I thought Jesus taught beyond Torah obedience though?

No....he didn't. If you obey Torah, you love God and your neighbor....Jesus preached against the man made laws that Judaism was pushing.

This may be one way to love God but there are other's no? Jesus came to show us God's love not just obedience. Mankind had only ever known God through Torah, so what happens when God sends His Son? You get a more candid view of God's mercy, forgiveness and love. If God didn't want us to know Him this way then why send His Son to show us more than the will contained in the Torah.

Personally I don't think either of us are wrong. I believe poeple will find God through obeying Torah and others will find God through looking to Jesus. To me Jesus and Torah aren't exclusive to one another. Where God is, so is His Son.

Good question....why did Jesus have to be sacrificed?

Jesus was the Son of God and mankind reject Him as they had rejected God on numerous occasions.

The sacrifice of Jesus was the forgiveness God offered mankind at the behest of His Son.

Are you persecuting the message that Paul delivered of a means beyond Torah to find God?

Only that it appears in the Letters that Paul teaches Torah abstenence. Paul teaches a Gnostic/Mystery Religion God/Man Sacrificed Messiah. This is not the same Messiah that Jesus promoted himself to be or that the Apostles of the Church at Jerusalem preached.

Jesus could not promote himself in His lifetime and the Apostles did their best to promote the man who had opened their eyes to the Kingdom of God. Because of this, we assume that Jesus who lived on Earth is the only inspiration we can get to model ourselves upon. And yet Jesus lives today in the heart of every believer.

I think Paul did his best to represent this understanding in his fallen nature. While no doubt he fell short of the mark of perfection, this understanding that Jesus is the Saviour reached a lot of lost souls and opened their eyes to the Kingdom of God also.

You are falling into the wrong line of thought on that....King David loved the Torah (as I pointed out in another thread) and had a great relationship with God.....Jesus obeyed the Torah and had the ideal relationship with God.

Which is nice for their time and essential for mankind's understanding. God has built upon David and Jesus' example however, and Paul's and every other Apostle...even Mary Magdoline and each and every sinner which took part in the future bible scritpures yet to be written. To bring everyone's attention solely back to the Torah however; wastes the rest of the works God built afterwards.

I doubt anything of God's goes to waste though. After all, what are you and I doing now - wasting our time or sowing seeds? Do we even know what we're planting? Can we see the hands of our Master working? We are called to play our part and even though we will be tempted by the flesh to fulfill our own understanding, it will be God's works which will persevere.

God's will for mankind will persever over mankind's ability to follow Torah.

They did both......Jew rejoice in the fact they have "God's Word" in the instruction on how to live righteously......Klee, who would be stupid enough to disregard the instruction manual to righteousness.

Ignore or misconstrue? I don't think mankind has ever really ignored the instruction manual, rather they have decided to interpret it their own way. This is where the Spirit of Jesus can bring us back into line today, like he did when he walked the Earth all those thousands of centuries ago.

Look at it this way....

I have a model airplane....If I don't have the instructions to build it, or I throw them away, or regard them as faulty, how am I ever going to build that airplane?

Same thing with the Torah's instruction on righteous living.

I understand this logic but if the aeroplane represents faith, how does mankind build it for themselves? What did the simple fishermen believe before Jesus called them to follow Him? Jesus had to show His disciples how to love God and show that love to others...before then they followed the Torah. Jesus came to change their perceptions of the written word into the Living word of God.

Today we are still the Lord's disciples and we need to go to the source of that love through the living word of God, before we can even interpret the written word correctly.

Klee, if you PM me with an email address, as I have said in other posts I am critiquing a work fom a colleage of mine who has researched this area extensively...I would gladly send you (free, as he would like other critques) what he has developed....it is very good and thought provoking.....I would say, it would open anyones eyes.....the chapters are in word format...

I'd welcome the opportunity to read other's thoughts on the matter. I'll PM you.

Hope you enjoyed your Holidays with family and friends over Easter. :D

I did and hope you did as well....BTW Easter...bad word....Resurrection Day.... 8-)

LOL, I was conscious of using the word "Easter" but didn't know how else to put it. I re-worded it several times before writing what I did. Thanks for the "Ressurrection Day" recommendation. I'll use that in future. :D

 

[Georges]

Paul recounts the story in Acts and Galations...both are different...Ananias receives a vision that Paul was coming....he didn't witness Paul's actual conversion (light and words).

Can you provide me with the scriptures in Galations where it differs from Acts. I am interested in reading contradictions if they are there.

Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Gal 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
Gal 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

Acts 9 says he went to Jerusalem with the impression of immediacy, no mention of Arabia...
Acts 22 says he went to Jerusalem with the impression of immediacy, no mention of Arabia...
Acts 26 says he went to Jerusalem from Damascus no mention of Arabia...

and there are different accounts of the actual event...

Even if Ananias is one...who is the other? Also, Luke is recounting the story...

The other being the Holy Spirit. If Jesus came to Ananias in a vision and Ananias did as the Lord asked, then surely the fact that Paul was spared from the death at sea and the vipers bight, testifies that what Jesus spoke to Ananias was true?

What Jesus said to Ananias in his vision and what the Holy Spirit did during Pauls' walk aligned.

How can I argue that except to say that I'm not a trinitarian and discount the Holy Spirit as a person....The Holy Spirit is described in Isa 11:2 and are the attributes and essence of God...not a third person of a trinity...How can I argue that point if you believe that the HS is a person (therefore a witness).

So is what you are saying is (for example) in a courtroom scene, God is sitting on the Judges seat...Paul at the defence table. Ananius is called to the stand to give his account as the first witness....steps down....the baliff calls the HS to the stand as the second witness. Who shows up on the stand? Does the door open and you hear footsteps approaching the witness stand without body? Not sure about that.....

ACTS 9:15-16 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Did Paul (through the Holy Spirit) 1. bear the Lord's name before the Gentiles, Kings and children of Israel; and

1. If anything I would say "by God's Holy Spirit". He may have, but if he promoted the Lord's name (Jesus) opposed to how/what the Church at Jerusalem, or if what he taught is contrary to the OT, then he is false. Now, if he did, and his letters have been edited, or penned under his name by others, then who knows.

2. shew Paul how great things he must suffer for the Lord's name's sake? Was Paul therefore a chosen vessel indicative of the fruits of the Spirit which align with Jesus' words to Ananias in the beginning?

2, It is strange how little Paul actually uses Jesus' name, or teaches what Jesus taught...or even referenced anything Jesus did (on earth). And of course, your point number 2 was Paul's account...again which version?

While I'm interested in finding the contradictions of Pauls' revalations in the bible and looking further into this matter, I cannot deny the works of the Lord in this man.

Better not.....it may change your mind.....I have to say...if Paul were truely great, and on the ball, we would be worshipping on Sabbath, observing the Jewish feat Days...and observing the Torah as it applies to each individual....

I'm following you but not sure you can count them together as 2 witnesses...I would think that you would need Paul (the person it happened to, Ananias (1 witness) and X (the second witness). Again, there were other's who were traveling with Paul, but as the story goes the versions are different.

Correct me if I'm wrong because I'm a little hazy on my recollection of the specific scripture I'm thinking of, but didn't Jesus count himself in the testimony that he was the Son of God? God had testified of Him and Jesus testified of Himself also...and this was deemed sufficient as 2 witnesses.

Actually, at Jesus' baptism....God stated for all to hear.....there were many witnesses to that.

Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

I'll have to go hunting in my bible for that scripture as I know it helps when having a discussion if you can provide scriptual evidence.

[quote="Klee shay":5ceed]There is also ACTS 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

and then again....

Act 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

Interesting. I'll have to read up on this further.

I'm not persecuting Jesus, just questioning Paul's motives.

Fair enough...

I will not suggest anything good or bad concerning the spirit....I only have what is written in black and white....and history to question who and what Paul was....

Fair enough also, but can we deny that the Lord used Paul as His chosen vessel? If we cannot deny this then we must discern history with the Holy Spirit.

What you say is true....What Paul teaches must be measured by OT (Torah) standards...If what Paul teaches jives with the OT great, if not...? IMO, Keep the OT, Gospels, and Revelation. Get rid of Paul, and Christianity will be back to what it should have been.

For this was the measure Jesus used and Paul indeed did as Jesus intended; even if Paul had other intentions. I don't know if Paul had other intentions but surely if we cannot see him as a new creation in Christ, then we doubt the works Christ wrought in him also?

Klee, All I can offer is that the Paul of Acts...appears to be Torah observant (what Christ would have wanted), and he complied with the Church in Jerusalems demands (that he prove his Torah obsevence). The Paul of the letters appears to approve of Torah non observence (contrary to Jesus and the Church at Jerusalem).

Klee, if any of the evidence is tainted.....how much can you believe?

Perhaps this is the test of the Gentile? To find the Lord in the message Paul was sent to preach, just as the test of the Jew was to find the Lord in the message Moses was sent to preach.

Everybody should search and continue to search....

]No matter what Paul's intentions; can you not see the Lord at work through him at any point in time?

As I suggested, if it doesn't jive the with church at Jerusalem, or more importantly the OT, then it is suspect.

If it is suspect then individuals should delve deeper but not at the expense of discrediting the *Lord's* works through Him. You've mentioned several times to read up on the history surrounding Paul's time; and while I can do this and find a fallen man; do I then use that information to read the bible differently?

I have, and have found so much more has opened up for me since then. Personally, for me it started out as questioning (finding out the why's) of my Lutheran upbringing. That is, how the creeds were developed, what the trinity is etc....The explanation of the trinity I recieved was "well it's something we can't understand, therefore just believe it" wasn't good enough for me....now I have a belief in God and Christ that does work without mystical mumb jumbo.

My search has led me to a great suspicion of Paul.....and guess what...I don't need anything Paul has to offer for understanding God's salvation.


My spirit cannot judge Paul because the history of the time says to doubt his intentions. If Jesus said he is a chosen vessel then I believe that truth more than anything history can recite about Paul.

Again, Paul's word....does Paul's actions line up with the other Apostles?

At the same time however, I am not adverse to listening to logic. If there are flaws in the construction of the bible, they should be highlighted as the Spirit would want no less.

That's all I have suggested...It's a tough journey though....at one point, I thought I would lose my mind..I mean, I was always taught "if you don't believe in this..or that...you will go to hell"....what happened if "by ignorance" they were wrong? Thought I better find out...

Paul, acting under the High Priest's (Sadducean) order began rounding up Pharisee Christians who posed a threat to the High Priest. Jesus was a threat to the High Priest (Sadducee's). The Pharisee's would have had no problem with Jesus as the Messiah. Paul's persecution of the believer's was political ambition.....

What you say is true of the man Saul before Jesus chose a new path for Paul. While I can believe the lust for power would still tempt his Earthly flesh from time to time, I think it was clear that he followed the lead of the Lord as much as was possible. This is the struggle in the flesh we are all subject to.

I must say however that Jesus is teaching me a new appreciation for obedience. I can see how obeying a certain set of rules with a sense of love for the one who wrote them can actually open the heart up more, as before I thought it was merely used as a form of "control" over people.

I can't believe my ears.....someone who finally gets it.... :bday: :bday: :bday: ...Klee, you are a pretty sharp cookie....you are looking at it logically, and making your own decision by weighing all of the info you can...we may not see eye to eye on certain subjects, but you just made my "Forum Year" by your last paragraph....I couldn't have stated it any better than you just did.

He is a clever man....

Absolutely, but didn't Jesus use it to His best advantage though, LOL. :wink: Jesus needed a clever man with the knowledge of deceit for the means of gaining power, to convert those who dealt in the same.

I don't though the baby out with the bathwater....The Lord may have used Paul (I don't know), I do know that what Paul had created, and what Christianity has become is a far cry from what was preached...I mean Klee, look at the letters in Revelation, these were written to Chruches created by Paul......in Revelation, you see the Churches being reprimanded for not remainin faithful to the Torah....we see that Torah abstinence was begining to show even at that early date. Notice again, these Churches were started by Paul.....Question, why were none of the other Apostles Churches addressed? Big Why......?

Not so.....the work at the cross was exemplified by the works and faith of the Nazarene Christians of Jerusalem...

Agreed to a certain extent. Beyond that however, wasn't it the will of God which worked through the Holy Spirit to gain the more? The work on the cross is exemplified by the works and faith of one Nazarene - Jesus. This is the route of salvation. Whoever adopts that faith and subsequent works, is a servant of one master - God; and cannot gain it by anyone else's faith or belief.

Not for me to judge....except I can't trust Paul if he teaches contrary to the Tenach.....if Paul brings people to Christ...(actually, he should be bringing them to God, by following Christ's example) under false pretenses...is that ok? I'm not so sure....I know God will judge that...right or wrong.

Was the spirit with the other disciples before the ascension?

Not in the sense that we know the Spirit today. What they had was the baptism of John, by water. Jesus was subject to the same baptism as were his disciples. This was the work of his Father I was talking about which Jesus did not doubt in Judas, even though he was to betray him.

Judas was chosen as Paul was chosen as all His disciples were chosen - are any of them good?

That's fantastic....now honor God by following Christ's example of following Torah as it applies to your situation.

I already obey Torah if I follow Jesus.

Ideally, yes...all Christians should honor God that way.

One of the things Jesus is teaching me lately is perseverance. In amongst all the bad examples around of what we shouldn't do in the name of the Lord, we also shouldn't become discouraged or feel threatened - as this demonstrates the same lack of faith which we see in others.

Perseverance is a tough ask sometimes. :angel: :evil: :o

Absolutely....

I am not a light my friend.

I am a fallen man (or woman in my case). :wink:

I won't hold that against you..... ha ha. :bday:

LOL. :

True....but the difference between Pauline Christianity and Petrine Christianity, is that Paul (Gnostic Paul) see's the world and man in a fallen state (inherited sin). Judaism essentially see's man in a righteous state (corruption enters into ones life). God, through the Torah gives us written guidelines to overcome the sin that we incur.

If we weren't fallen why does mankind even need a Saviour?

Good question.....We become fallen....everyone does....and God is the Savior.....Jesus shows us the way....

Yes...I do believe that...but if one has the Torah, what better way to get to know the mind of God then by following it's guidelines.

Torah would be great if life was a textbook and we all attended the same school. For those whose lives do not read like a textbook, they need a Saviour to show them the mind of God.

This does not nullify Torah as a means to know God but it merely makes God more accessible for those who struggle with obedience.

I thought Jesus taught beyond Torah obedience though?

No....he didn't. If you obey Torah, you love God and your neighbor....Jesus preached against the man made laws that Judaism was pushing.

This may be one way to love God but there are other's no? Jesus came to show us God's love not just obedience. Mankind had only ever known God through Torah, so what happens when God sends His Son? You get a more candid view of God's mercy, forgiveness and love. If God didn't want us to know Him this way then why send His Son to show us more than the will contained in the Torah.

Man added to God's law......Jesus came to redirect....reinstruct.....get the people back to God's law, only.....

Personally I don't think either of us are wrong. I believe poeple will find God through obeying Torah and others will find God through looking to Jesus. To me Jesus and Torah aren't exclusive to one another. Where God is, so is His Son.

Agreed....

Good question....why did Jesus have to be sacrificed?

Jesus was the Son of God and mankind reject Him as they had rejected God on numerous occasions.

There were many, many Jews who accepted Jesus as the Messiah. It was the HP (those in power) who rejected Jesus....

The sacrifice of Jesus was the forgiveness God offered mankind at the behest of His Son.

There are numerous places where God forgives because he is God without blood sacrifice....besides, in the OT he forbids human sacrifice....God didn't break his own edict did he?

Are you persecuting the message that Paul delivered of a means beyond Torah to find God?

Only that it appears in the Letters that Paul teaches Torah abstenence. Paul teaches a Gnostic/Mystery Religion God/Man Sacrificed Messiah. This is not the same Messiah that Jesus promoted himself to be or that the Apostles of the Church at Jerusalem preached.

Jesus could not promote himself in His lifetime and the Apostles did their best to promote the man who had opened their eyes to the Kingdom of God. Because of this, we assume that Jesus who lived on Earth is the only inspiration we can get to model ourselves upon. And yet Jesus lives today in the heart of every believer.

The Jesus on earth promoted Torah obedience, that he was the Messiah (which means he would rule the Messianic Kingdom). There was no mistake in this as the Disciples understood this and questioned "when" this would take place....Mat 24.

I think Paul did his best to represent this understanding in his fallen nature. While no doubt he fell short of the mark of perfection, this understanding that Jesus is the Saviour reached a lot of lost souls and opened their eyes to the Kingdom of God also.

Paul using pagan mystery religion terminology to reach pagen souls....? Paul did not teach a Messianic Kingdom (1000 year period) of Messiah on earth....(at least I can't recall any verses at the moment). This is what the Disciples were taught...Paul taught the Kingdom is "within you". Chirst and the Disciples understood "The kingdom" as a literal, physical kingdom during the millennial Sabbath.

You are falling into the wrong line of thought on that....King David loved the Torah (as I pointed out in another thread) and had a great relationship with God.....Jesus obeyed the Torah and had the ideal relationship with God.

Which is nice for their time and essential for mankind's understanding. God has built upon David and Jesus' example however, and Paul's and every other Apostle...even Mary Magdoline and each and every sinner which took part in the future bible scritpures yet to be written. To bring everyone's attention solely back to the Torah however; wastes the rest of the works God built afterwards.

I will disagree on that....I don't think the works of God are wasted on Torah observence....it show's God I care about what he has to say....

I doubt anything of God's goes to waste though. After all, what are you and I doing now - wasting our time or sowing seeds? Do we even know what we're planting? Can we see the hands of our Master working? We are called to play our part and even though we will be tempted by the flesh to fulfill our own understanding, it will be God's works which will persevere.

God's will for mankind will persever over mankind's ability to follow Torah.

Maybe God's will is for mankind to follow Torah....after all, we will be doing it anyway during the Messianic Kingdom...and forever for all that matters..

They did both......Jew rejoice in the fact they have "God's Word" in the instruction on how to live righteously......Klee, who would be stupid enough to disregard the instruction manual to righteousness.

Ignore or misconstrue? I don't think mankind has ever really ignored the instruction manual, rather they have decided to interpret it their own way. This is where the Spirit of Jesus can bring us back into line today, like he did when he walked the Earth all those thousands of centuries ago.

Amen brudda....I mean sista....

Look at it this way....

I have a model airplane....If I don't have the instructions to build it, or I throw them away, or regard them as faulty, how am I ever going to build that airplane?

Same thing with the Torah's instruction on righteous living.

I understand this logic but if the aeroplane represents faith, how does mankind build it for themselves? What did the simple fishermen believe before Jesus called them to follow Him?

Torah....

Jesus had to show His disciples how to love God and show that love to others...before then they followed the Torah. Jesus came to change their perceptions of the written word into the Living word of God.

An understanding of a Jewish homelife would show from the age of dedication (baby) to the age of bar mitzvah (12 or so) from that time period, it is a parents duty to instruct their children in Torah....The discples knew Torah very well.....Jesus opened their minds to the correct meaning, and the difference between Torah and man made law....Peter still had a little trouble with that.

Today we are still the Lord's disciples and we need to go to the source of that love through the living word of God, before we can even interpret the written word correctly.

I think we need to go to the living words of the Torah as it is....

Klee, if you PM me with an email address, as I have said in other posts I am critiquing a work fom a colleage of mine who has researched this area extensively...I would gladly send you (free, as he would like other critques) what he has developed....it is very good and thought provoking.....I would say, it would open anyones eyes.....the chapters are in word format...

I'd welcome the opportunity to read other's thoughts on the matter. I'll PM you.

Hope you enjoyed your Holidays with family and friends over Easter. :D

I did and hope you did as well....BTW Easter...bad word....Resurrection Day.... 8-)

LOL, I was conscious of using the word "Easter" but didn't know how else to put it. I re-worded it several times before writing what I did. Thanks for the "Ressurrection Day" recommendation. I'll use that in future.

Actually the Hebrew name for the resurrection day is "Bikkurim" and is the third in the line of seven Feast days during the Jewish religious year....it is a Feast day of the First Fruits....sound familiar?

:D[/quote:5ceed]

 

[Klee shay]

Can you provide me with the scriptures in Galations where it differs from Acts. I am interested in reading contradictions if they are there.

Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Gal 1:17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
Gal 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
Gal 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

Acts 9 says he went to Jerusalem with the impression of immediacy, no mention of Arabia...
Acts 22 says he went to Jerusalem with the impression of immediacy, no mention of Arabia...
Acts 26 says he went to Jerusalem from Damascus no mention of Arabia...

and there are different accounts of the actual event...

Will read these passages in the bible to get a better feel for the context.

What Jesus said to Ananias in his vision and what the Holy Spirit did during Pauls' walk aligned.

How can I argue that except to say that I'm not a trinitarian and discount the Holy Spirit as a person....The Holy Spirit is described in Isa 11:2 and are the attributes and essence of God...not a third person of a trinity...How can I argue that point if you believe that the HS is a person (therefore a witness).

Strangely enough, I agree with your perceptions of the Holy Spirit being the essence of God and not a third person. The Holy Spirit cannot exist of itself in this world if it was not part of God and Jesus. Let me show you a scripture though; where Jesus talks about the Comforter.

JOHN 16

13. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

While the Holy Spirit isn't a third "person" so to speak; it testifies of whatever is the Lord's. Henceforth it is a a witness of some authority if you can see what I'm saying?

So is what you are saying is (for example) in a courtroom scene, God is sitting on the Judges seat...Paul at the defence table. Ananius is called to the stand to give his account as the first witness....steps down....the baliff calls the HS to the stand as the second witness. Who shows up on the stand? Does the door open and you hear footsteps approaching the witness stand without body? Not sure about that.....

LOL, I think if God was sitting in the Judges seat would there be any need of a defence?

ACTS 9:15-16 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Did Paul (through the Holy Spirit) 1. bear the Lord's name before the Gentiles, Kings and children of Israel; and

Better not.....it may change your mind.....I have to say...if Paul were truely great, and on the ball, we would be worshipping on Sabbath, observing the Jewish feat Days...and observing the Torah as it applies to each individual....

Can I ask you if you think Paul did a good job of describing the Lord's "grace"? Can you find fault in his teachings of the Lord's grace?

Torah has its place by all means, but grace is what Jesus used to bring others into the fold. Would you agree?

My search has led me to a great suspicion of Paul.....and guess what...I don't need anything Paul has to offer for understanding God's salvation.

True but all scripture is good therefore Paul does have something to offer everyone in their walk. I cannot quantify what exactly that "something" factor is, but if it's in scripture then its relevant to some extent. God would have stopped it otherwise by killing Paul instead of giving him the opportunity to repent. In our repentence we often find what it is God wanted us to see all along.

Maybe Paul needed the Lord's grace instead of more Torah because he saw how the High Priest's used it to control people. Only speculation on my part there.

Again, Paul's word....does Paul's actions line up with the other Apostles?

Not always but sometimes yes.

I can't believe my ears.....someone who finally gets it.... :bday: :bday: :bday: ...Klee, you are a pretty sharp cookie....you are looking at it logically, and making your own decision by weighing all of the info you can...we may not see eye to eye on certain subjects, but you just made my "Forum Year" by your last paragraph....I couldn't have stated it any better than you just did.

LOL, and it's only taken all my walk to catch on to obedience. :wink: Long, long, looooong story!

I don't though the baby out with the bathwater....The Lord may have used Paul (I don't know), I do know that what Paul had created, and what Christianity has become is a far cry from what was preached...I mean Klee, look at the letters in Revelation, these were written to Chruches created by Paul......in Revelation, you see the Churches being reprimanded for not remainin faithful to the Torah....we see that Torah abstinence was begining to show even at that early date. Notice again, these Churches were started by Paul.....Question, why were none of the other Apostles Churches addressed? Big Why......?

Funnily enough I was just reading some of Revalations today as well. Will have to check it out again. I couldn't see how Pauls' churchs or Peter's were defined as such. I took it as meaning all churches. Would it be wise to think it didn't apply to all?

There were many, many Jews who accepted Jesus as the Messiah. It was the HP (those in power) who rejected Jesus....

If this is so, then by Jewish tradition wouldn't the Jewish people fall into line with the High Priest's say-so?

There are numerous places where God forgives because he is God without blood sacrifice....besides, in the OT he forbids human sacrifice....God didn't break his own edict did he?

Did God break his own edict when the blood of David's General washed away the sin of adultery David committed with his wife? God punished him for plotting to take the life of His general; but for the adultery God commanded both adulterers would normally be stoned to death for - David was spared.

Or at least that's how I read the scriptures to mean at the time.

Actually the Hebrew name for the resurrection day is "Bikkurim" and is the third in the line of seven Feast days during the Jewish religious year....it is a Feast day of the First Fruits....sound familiar?

Happy fruit day??? : Just kidding.

Sorry I didn't deal with all of your responses this time. Planning our daughter's 3rd birthday party soon and there's much to do! Thanks for sharing. :D

 

[Georges]

Let me show you a scripture though; where Jesus talks about the Comforter.

An interesting item concerning the comforter...

from the Jewishencyclopedia.com article on the Memra...
....Mediatorship.

Like the Shekinah (comp. Targ. Num. xxiii. 21), the Memra is accordingly the manifestation of God. "The Memra brings Israel nigh unto God and sits on His throne receiving the prayers of Israel" (Targ. Yer. to Deut. iv. 7). It shielded Noah from the flood (Targ. Yer. to Gen. vii. 16) and brought about the dispersion of the seventy nations (l.c. xi. 8); it is the guardian of Jacob (Gen. xxviii. 20-21, xxxv. 3) and of Israel (Targ. Yer. to Ex. xii. 23, 29); it works all the wonders in Egypt (l.c. xiii. 8, xiv. 25); hardens the heart of Pharaoh (l.c. xiii. 15); goes before Israel in the wilderness (Targ. Yer. to Ex. xx. 1); blesses Israel (Targ. Yer. to Num. xxiii. 8); battles for the people (Targ. Josh. iii. 7, x. 14, xxiii. 3). As in ruling over the destiny of man the Memra is the agent of God (Targ. Yer. to Num. xxvii. 16), so also is it in the creation of the earth (Isa. xlv. 12) and in the execution of justice (Targ. Yer. to Num. xxxiii. 4). So, in the future, shall the Memra be the comforter (Targ. Isa. lxvi. 13): "My Shekinah I shall put among you, My Memra shall be unto you for a redeeming deity, and you shall be unto My Name a holy people" (Targ. Yer. to Lev. xxii. 12).

I wish mainstream Christianity would grab a hold of this Jewish concept of the Word....

JOHN 16

13. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

While the Holy Spirit isn't a third "person" so to speak; it testifies of whatever is the Lord's. Henceforth it is a a witness of some authority if you can see what I'm saying?

The only aspect I can see the HS being a witness is in the sense of proving that something is there...ie God can be proven to exist because we see the influence of his Holy Spirit in our lives...therefore the HS is a witness that God exists, not a witness in a personal sense, but rather as a proof. Another example, a footprint is left in the mud as a witness that someone had walked there.....the footprint isn't a person, but it is a witness that a person was there....I know, that may be stretching it a bit...

ACTS 9:15-16 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

Can I ask you if you think Paul did a good job of describing the Lord's "grace"? Can you find fault in his teachings of the Lord's grace?

I have to look at that more carefully. If Paul teaches "the Lord's grace" as God's grace, then he is accurate. If he teaches it as Christ's grace, and neglects God, then the message is faulty.

Torah has its place by all means, but grace is what Jesus used to bring others into the fold. Would you agree?

I think Jesus demanded the observence of the pure Torah....how can you go wrong? The points for worship, repentence and forgiveness are contained in them...that is what Christ taught. Christ never taught the "free ride" of just believing in him....Believing in Christ means to follow his example....that was honoring his heavenly Father by obeying his word.

As far as bring others into the fold.....it seems to me Jesus wasn't exactly Gentile friendly....he didn't minister to them unless he was "pushed" to do so....if I'm not mistaken...

My search has led me to a great suspicion of Paul.....and guess what...I don't need anything Paul has to offer for understanding God's salvation.

True but all scripture is good therefore Paul does have something to offer everyone in their walk. I cannot quantify what exactly that "something" factor is, but if it's in scripture then its relevant to some extent. God would have stopped it otherwise by killing Paul instead of giving him the opportunity to repent. In our repentence we often find what it is God wanted us to see all along.

Maybe Paul needed the Lord's grace instead of more Torah because he saw how the High Priest's used it to control people. Only speculation on my part there.

Could be....I just wish Paul if he were true...would have preached Torah observence like he claimed to have been, Torah observent...instead of sending mixed signals.....ie. Torah Observent (Acts), Torah Abstinent (Letters).


Funnily enough I was just reading some of Revalations today as well. Will have to check it out again. I couldn't see how Pauls' churchs or Peter's were defined as such. I took it as meaning all churches. Would it be wise to think it didn't apply to all?

It is quite clear in the letters to the Churches in Rev, that Jesus chastised some of the Churches for claiming to be Jews, but were not....which means that early on the Chruches were still worshipping God in the spirit of Judaism, by observing Mosaic Law. At some point, they stopped doing that, however they still claimed to be Jewish Christians....I believe they were influenced by Paul's Torah abstinent teaching....By the letters of reprimand, Jesus was trying to get them back on track....

Returning to the first love? What would that mean to a Jewish Christian? It means getting back to Torah....a Jew's first love.

There were many, many Jews who accepted Jesus as the Messiah. It was the HP (those in power) who rejected Jesus....

If this is so, then by Jewish tradition wouldn't the Jewish people fall into line with the High Priest's say-so?

The Pharisee's would never allow Jesus to be crucified or stand trial....they were expecting a Messiah. The Sadducee's however saw there political ambitions threatened by Jesus...

Hyam Maccoby has some interesting books on this subject....you can type a search on the internet and read some of his book excerpts.....

Maccoby presents that Jesus was tried secretly by a minimum group of men selected by the HP. This was done secretly in the middle of the night (Garden of Gethe...). The whole business was conducted quickly before the pharissic dominated Sanhedrin could be called. The exact same events took place with Stephen....he was executed by the same group of men...Paul was a member of this select group working for the Sadducee's.

There are numerous places where God forgives because he is God without blood sacrifice....besides, in the OT he forbids human sacrifice....God didn't break his own edict did he?

Did God break his own edict when the blood of David's General washed away the sin of adultery David committed with his wife? God punished him for plotting to take the life of His general; but for the adultery God commanded both adulterers would normally be stoned to death for - David was spared.

David repented of his sin..and was punished...was there a human sacrifice involved? Criminal execution is not sacrifice....

It is true that David was an adulterer....and should have been stoned, but God must have accepted his repentence....

Or at least that's how I read the scriptures to mean at the time.

Actually the Hebrew name for the resurrection day is "Bikkurim" and is the third in the line of seven Feast days during the Jewish religious year....it is a Feast day of the First Fruits....sound familiar?

Happy fruit day??? : Just kidding.

Sorry I didn't deal with all of your responses this time. Planning our daughter's 3rd birthday party soon and there's much to do! Thanks for sharing. :D

congrats...to your daughter....my grandson's birthday was Sunday (2 years). I've got 3 turning 2 within 3 months of each other....5 total under 3 years old.....they keep me busy....

Thanks for the chat....

Geo.

 

[Johann!@#]

I'm quite amazed - but then, maybe not - why there haven't been more responses to this thread. Where, for instance is Heidi? Come on you biblical scholars, what is YOUR take on this topic?

Simple-give Scripture references.
Thanks
J.