Did the Son have a beginning?

[locust]

John 1:1 '' In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.''
in the beginning of what? but the creative works God is credited with. ''in the beginning'' indicates there was a start.
that first thing was someone much like him we now know his name to Jesus .
now lets go to the book of Proverbs 8
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.''

then in the book Colossians 1:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

so ya ,all those verses do a fairly good job of pointing out that Jesus the son of God had a begging .
even to say Jesus is a son gives heavy credence as son's do not father them selves. but have relied on their father to make it happen. Shalom

 

[Randy]

Because he is contrasting his eternal existence with those false gods that are formed by human hands. Nothing more.

No God was before me vs No God was formed before me

And there is no Scripture that states the Son had a beginning.

Yes I agree

It's implied throughout Scripture, just as it for the Son, largely in the NT.

Its stated He's the First and Last through out scripture.

The problem is, you're misunderstanding what "begotten" means in regards to the Son. It speaks of his uniqueness and that he is the one and only Son, not that he had a beginning. If he didn't exist at one point in eternity past and had a beginning, he would be "created" or "made," no matter how much you deny it. If the Son came into being, then that would have been the beginning of creation, and John 1:1-3, 1 Cor. 8:6, and Col. 1:16-17 would be absolutely false.

Do I? He's a Son who has a God and Father. He's begotten. Yes the only Begotten.

 

[Randy]

No, he isn't. Lazarus rose before him, as did at least three people in the OT. Jesus was the first to rise in newness of life, having defeated death so as to never die again.

Jesus was the first to rise from the dead in the resurrection He spoke about. He is the beginning of that resurrection. Has the preeminence in the resurrection as first. Lazarus died again.
Acts 26:23

No, that cannot be. John 1:1-3, 10, 1 Cor. 8:6, Phil. 2:5-8, Col. 1:16-17, and Heb. 1:10-12, among others, absolutely rule out the possibility that the Son came into existence.

No they don't actually. And Hebrews 1 is about the Son not about God. They do show a Son who has the Fathers nature. God.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)

Again, if "all things were created" by the Son, "in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities," if "all things were created through him," then it is logically impossible that he came into being at some point in time.

God created by the Son just as God spoke to us in these last days by His Son. The Deity in the Son created. "Through Him all things were made" From the Father through the Son.

"Firstborn" in verse 15 speaks of his preeminence over all creation, that is, of having the standing, privileges, and rights as a son who is the firstborn (see the OT). That is the whole point of verses 16-17--to show why he is preeminent.

I agree in being first gives Him the preeminence in things created but it means He's the First of Gods works.

Sure, but it has different meanings and the context determines which meaning, including the context of the entirety of Scripture. You cannot simply ignore the clear context of Heb. 1:10-12, in which the Father speaks of the Son as being Yahweh, nor the other uses in Scripture which have nothing to do with being born.

The question wasn't about the nature found in the Son but if HE had a beginning. I still state its the Fathers Deity that dwells in the Son without limit. The Father is unbegotten.

Because the whole point of Heb. 1 is to show the superiority of the Son to the angels, part of which is that the Son is Yahweh.

Yes, His Sonship - but why does He need to be appointed heir of all things if He is the unbegotten Son?

This isn't a reference to the Son. Jesus is in the next verse (Heb. 12:24):

Church of the Firstborn
As Jesus stated . I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
Jesus is stated as the head of His church which is the body of Christ.

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,
Heb 12:23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
Heb 12:24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. (ESV)

These all refer to different things, different persons and groups of persons and beings.

The assembly of the body of Christ is named the church of the firstborn.

I don't expect to change anyone's mind but in looking at truth as given from above there is compelling testimony He is God's first begotten and has always been the Son. One in whom all the fullness of the Deity of God the Father dwells.

 

[Corn Pop]

I think I would have been a critic of Jesus if i lived when he was around, like hear some rumour this Jesus fellow raised someone from the dead and was doing all these miracles, I don't think I would have believed him and just thought he was a trickster and some type of magician. The full doubter. But I believe even I have not seen. The more I study the scriptures the more it makes sense and the more I believe. I was a critic and doubter, then like a mustard seed, and now im like a mustard seed that is sprouting.

 

[Randy]

I think I would have been a critic of Jesus if i lived when he was around, like hear some rumour this Jesus fellow raised someone from the dead and was doing all these miracles, I don't think I would have believed him and just thought he was a trickster and some type of magician. The full doubter. But I believe even I have not seen. The more I study the scriptures the more it makes sense and the more I believe. I was a critic and doubter, then like a mustard seed, and now im like a mustard seed that is sprouting.

Those who belong to God hear what God says. (accept and believe in the truth)
Peter stated Jesus was the Christ the Son of the living God. Jesus stated He didn't learn that from man but from His Father. He called Peter blessed. Now it seems what the Father revealed is not good enough you have to call Jesus God in the flesh. Regardless Jesus is Lord.

 

[Free]

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What does begotten mean in the Bible?


AI Overview

In the Bible, "begotten" primarily means to beget, to father, or to bring forth as offspring. It signifies a relationship of origin, particularly between a father and his child. In a theological sense, especially when referring to Jesus, "begotten" highlights his unique relationship with God the Father, emphasizing that Jesus is not created but eternally exists as the Son of God.

Which more or less supports what I said. But, instead of trusting AI, it is better to do the harder work Christians are supposed to do and actually study for ourselves.

The Greek word used of Jesus being "begotten," is monogenes. It is used only nine times in the NT, five of those times it is used of Christ and even then, only by John (John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9). The other four times, the KJV translates it as “only” (Luke 7:12; 8:42), “only child” (Luke 9:38), and “only begotten” (Heb 11:17). It is never translated as “conceived” and does not refer to “begetting” in the sense of being created or coming into existence at a point in time. Monogenes really just means "unique," "only," "one and only."

Each instance of monogenes is speaking of the relationship of parents to their children, not their conception or their physical begetting. And, in fact, this is precisely what we see in John 1:18. We already know from John 1:1-3 that the preincarnate Son “was with God and was God,” which completely rules out the idea that there was ever a time when the Word, the pre-incarnate Son, did not exist. So, verse 18 can only be speaking of the eternal relationship of the Father and the Son. This is also supported by 1:18 itself: “which is in the bosom of the Father.” That being so, it simply cannot be speaking of conception; that does not at all fit the context nor the usage of monogenes.

Here is M. R. Vincent on John 1:14's use of monogenes:

"Μονογενής distinguishes between Christ as the only Son, and the many children (τέκνα) of God; and further, in that the only Son did not become (γενέσθαι) such by receiving power, by adoption, or by moral generation, but was (ἦν) such in the beginning with God. The fact set forth does not belong to the sphere of His incarnation, but of His eternal being. The statement is anthropomorphic, and therefore cannot fully express the metaphysical relation."

 

[Free]

No God was before me vs No God was formed before me

Yes, and it's true.

Its stated He's the First and Last through out scripture.

It's stated of whom?

Do I? He's a Son who has a God and Father. He's begotten. Yes the only Begotten.

See the above post regarding "begotten."

No they don't actually. And Hebrews 1 is about the Son not about God. They do show a Son who has the Fathers nature. God.

They absolutely do. You have never addressed the basic, but sound logic that those verses use. Even here, your poor reasoning betrays you. If the Son "has the Father's nature," then it follows that he has existed for as long as the Father has existed. To say otherwise is to deny that the Son has the Father's nature.

Of course Heb. 1 is about the Son. That has always been my point. What you keep ignoring is what is found in verses 10-12, where the Father implies that the Son is also Yahweh, by saying that Ps. 102:25-27 is speaking of the Son.

God created by the Son just as God spoke to us in these last days by His Son. The Deity in the Son created. "Through Him all things were made" From the Father through the Son.

Not "the Deity in the Son created;" that is heresy. The Son is deity, equal to the Father but not the Father. Again, see John 1:1-3, 1 Cor. 8:6, Phil. 2:5-8, Col. 1:16-17, and Heb. 1:10-12.

I agree in being first gives Him the preeminence in things created but it means He's the First of Gods works.

No, it absolutely cannot logically mean that. Again, "through him all things were made" precludes the Son from ever having come into being. You're completely ignoring the language used. Basic reasoning tells us that the Son is necessarily just as eternal as the Father is, or else verses 16-17, and many others in the NT, are false.

The question wasn't about the nature found in the Son but if HE had a beginning.

To question "if HE had a beginning" is a question about the nature of the Son. If the Son had a beginning, he is a mere creature, like the rest of us. If he had no beginning, then he has the same nature as the Father and is eternal.

I still state its the Fathers Deity that dwells in the Son without limit. The Father is unbegotten.

The Father, and Holy Spirit, dwell in the Son, but the Son is just as much true deity as the Father is.

Yes, His Sonship - but why does He need to be appointed heir of all things if He is the unbegotten Son?

Because he is also truly man... Again, Phil. 2:5-8 is key.

Church of the Firstborn
As Jesus stated . I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.
Jesus is stated as the head of His church which is the body of Christ.

That's not addressing what I stated, which is based on the context.

The assembly of the body of Christ is named the church of the firstborn.

It is the assembly of the firstborn for the reason I gave, which is not because Jesus is referred to as the firstborn elsewhere.

I don't expect to change anyone's mind but in looking at truth as given from above there is compelling testimony He is God's first begotten and has always been the Son. One in whom all the fullness of the Deity of God the Father dwells.

I fully agree that the Son is the one and only begotten, and always will be, in whom dwells the fullness of Deity. But, you're ignoring numerous other things stated about the Son, proving that he is just as much God in nature as the Father is. The only logical conclusion based on the full revelation of Scripture, is that the Son has existed for as long as the Father has existed, which is for "eternity past;" they have never not existed, along with the Holy Spirit.

 

[locust]

The only logical conclusion based on the full revelation of Scripture, is that the Son has existed for as long as the Father has existed,

I am going to disagree . no scripture backs the thought that the son could of possibly existed to a equal time . all that ya have offered is the WANT to believe .
you likely have no idea how difficult it was for the most high God to make that son even happen. or for that matter why God needed a under worker to work on the projects God outlined for him to do .

 

[Free]

I am going to disagree . no scripture backs the thought that the son could of possibly existed to a equal time .

So you claim, yet you offer no rebuttal. John 1:1-3 proves what I have said, as do 1 Cor. 8:6, Col. 1:16-17, Heb. 1:10-12, and many other passages.

But, what came first? Jesus's ministry. And during his ministry we have John 8:58, where Jesus himself claims to have timeless existence, in contrast to Abraham's temporary existence. Jesus claimed to be the very Son of God, which the Jews rightly understood as a claim to true deity. We have Jesus accepting worship from his followers, several times, with no rebuke from Jesus. We read of Thomas declaring that Jesus was his Lord and his God, again with no rebuke from Jesus. That would all be blasphemy if Jesus wasn't actually also truly God.

Such things are precisely why John wrote what he did in John 1:1-18. It was all based on what he saw and heard from Jesus.

all that ya have offered is the WANT to believe .

I think you have it backwards. I have offered substantial biblical evidence and sound reasoning based on that evidence to support what I have said. You have not and have not even offered any substantial rebuttal.

you likely have no idea how difficult it was for the most high God to make that son even happen. or for that matter why God needed a under worker to work on the projects God outlined for him to do .

Okay.

 

[locust]

We have Jesus accepting worship from his followers, several times,

do we ? He was given obisense .a gesture expressing deferential respect, much the same thing is done in the Japanese culture. hardly an act of worship. ,,,,,ya ,some bibles get it wrong.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Did the Son have a beginning?​

Yes, and No.

The Son has two natures: divine and human. His divine nature does not have a beginning while his human nature had a beginning.

Proof that Christ is divine
Matthew 1:23 “Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”
John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
John 1:14 “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”
Isaiah 9:6 “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be
upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”
... and since God is eternal (Genesis 21:33, Psalm 102:27) and Christ is God, we have shown the Christ's divine nature had no beginning

Proof that Christ is human
Jesus has a human body and is visible and could grow tired. The divine nature does not exhibit these characteristics. Jesus body was created and grew with time, whereas the divine nature does not change. Thus, the human nature of Christ had a beginning.

 

[Free]

do we ? He was given obisense .a gesture expressing deferential respect, much the same thing is done in the Japanese culture. hardly an act of worship. ,,,,,ya ,some bibles get it wrong.

Yes, we do:

We see many instances of the worship of Jesus by his followers:

Mat 14:31 Jesus immediately reached out his hand and took hold of him, saying to him, "O you of little faith, why did you doubt?"
Mat 14:32 And when they got into the boat, the wind ceased.
Mat 14:33 And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

(It is also very important to also note the context--the ceasing of the storm--and the confession "Truly you are the Son of God.")

Mat 28:8 So they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to tell his disciples.
Mat 28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, "Greetings!" And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.
…
Mat 28:16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them.
Mat 28:17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted.

(Again, it is very important to note the contexts--immediately after his resurrection and immediately prior to his ascension.)

Luk 24:50 Then he led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands he blessed them.
Luk 24:51 While he blessed them, he parted from them and was carried up into heaven.
Luk 24:52 And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,

(Again, during his ascension.)

Joh 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?"
Joh 9:36 He answered, "And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?"
Joh 9:37 Jesus said to him, "You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you."
Joh 9:38 He said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him.

(Note that the context begins with Jesus miraculously healing of a man born blind and then asking the man if he believed "in the Son of Man.")

These show much more than mere respect. This is actual worship, just as the Father commanded the angels:

Heb 1:6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."

People did it to:

Mat 2:11 And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh.

And it's what we see in Revelation:

Rev 5:11 Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands,
Rev 5:12 saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!"
Rev 5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"
Rev 5:14 And the four living creatures said, "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped.

But what happens when other people or angels are worshiped?

Act 10:25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him.
Act 10:26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, "Stand up; I too am a man."

Col 2:18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind,

Rev 19:9 And the angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb." And he said to me, "These are the true words of God."
Rev 19:10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God." For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Rev 22:8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,
Rev 22:9 but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

Clearly then, God alone is to be worshiped, yet we see that Jesus is worshiped at his birth, during his ministry and time on earth, and then in heaven; from his birth to his glorification. This simply could not be if Jesus was not truly God.

(All ESV.)