Did we live as spirits before the earth was created?

[Free]

So, you seem to be saying that we should NOT trust in God to know the truth.

No, that is not at all what I am saying.

I can't believe you are saying that if we go DIRECTLY to God than we all will have different opinions.

That is not exactly what I am saying. And yet, every person who made the exact same statement has had vastly differing doctrines from the others. Go figure.

If we trust in man's opinion, then it is what we see in the Christian world and in the world in general today.

So, tell me, why should I trust your opinions? Why should I trust what you say to be truth about theology is, in fact, truth?

With all due respect, the above list sounds very like the scriptures that say:

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
2 Tim 4:2-3

And that sounds very much like the topic of this thread.

If one wants to have eternal life he/she must truly 'KNOW' the Father and Jesus, not just believe. The only way to know God is going humbly directly to Him and asking for that witness. None else can give you that knowledge other than the Father. And, believing, is not enough because even the demons believe.

The demons believe God is one and shudder, is how that verse goes. Don't take it beyond what it states.

So, between man and God, I will go to God any and every time. I may listen to my fellow man, interact, etc., but I will seek true knowledge from God alone. He alone has the truth and He is my Father, and He has my interest as His main purpose. He will lead me because He loves me.

Then you plainly ignore one of the many ways in which God gives us truth, to your peril.

To be saved, one needs to be right, and needs to be in a position spiritually superior, as Christ is in an infinitely spiritual superior position. And that is our goal. All those that are right (truly right), will converge and become the true people of God, because they have the true knowledge of God.

You can be right too, if you humble yourself and ask the Father for the truth.

That about sums it up right there--everyone will be right if they end up believe what you believe. :gah I wish I had a dollar for every time that has been posted.

 

[mamre]

So, tell me, why should I trust your opinions? Why should I trust what you say to be truth about theology is, in fact, truth?

Nope. You should not take my word for anything. I gave you my testimony of what I have learned to be the truth from God about a certain subject. In this case: the reality of pre-mortal life. You should not take my word for it. You should learn the truth on your own by going to the source of truth. You can do what I did. Go directly to Father in Heaven humbly and ask Him to confirm the truthfulness of this doctrine. And if you do ask Him with real intent, He will give a witness to your spirit that it is true.

Please notice that I have never asked anybody to follow me. I expounded the scriptures about this particular topic, and said that I know it to be true and that anyone can know also if they want. All they need to do is to ask God humbly, wanting to know and and with real intent in applying it to their lives. If they do, it is my experience and testimony that God will answer.

With all due respect, the above list sounds very like the scriptures that say:

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
2 Tim 4:2-3

And that sounds very much like the topic of this thread.

You are just repeating what I have written, except that I gave you a dozen of examples.

If one wants to have eternal life he/she must truly 'KNOW' the Father and Jesus, not just believe. The only way to know God is going humbly directly to Him and asking for that witness. None else can give you that knowledge other than the Father. And, believing, is not enough because even the demons believe.

The demons believe God is one and shudder, is how that verse goes. Don't take it beyond what it states.

Demons believe and they will not have eternal life. I didn't say that, the Apostle John said that to explain that it not enough to just believe, which is my point in this paragraph. To achieve eternal life believing is not sufficient, you need to KNOW how to get there.

So, between man and God, I will go to God any and every time. I may listen to my fellow man, interact, etc., but I will seek true knowledge from God alone. He alone has the truth and He is my Father, and He has my interest as His main purpose. He will lead me because He loves me.

Then you plainly ignore one of the many ways in which God gives us truth, to your peril.

It is true that God many times gives us answers through other people without those people even knowing it, but not by virtue of those people, but because His spirit witness to your spirit.

The testimony of the truth should come to your spirit directly from the spirit of God. That is why you need to be humble, as the spirit of God doesn't answer to the proud.

This process is called witness. God witness to your spirit the truths of His Gospel without ANY intermediary.

If someone give me a testimony of a truth, I will go to God and ask Him to witness of that truth so I can know by my self.

That's how you know the truth of everything, through the witness of the Spirit of God DIRECTLY to your spirit. See what Paul says:
"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:" Rom. 8: 16

To be saved, one needs to be right, and needs to be in a position spiritually superior, as Christ is in an infinitely spiritual superior position. And that is our goal. All those that are right (truly right), will converge and become the true people of God, because they have the true knowledge of God.

You can be right too, if you humble yourself and ask the Father for the truth.

That about sums it up right there--everyone will be right if they end up believe what you believe. :gah I wish I had a dollar for every time that has been posted.

Free, nobody is saved in ignorance. Christ said not everyone that says God, God will enter His kingdom. That means one needs to KNOW where to go to find the kingdom of God. No minister, priest, pastor, etc. can give you that knowledge, only the Holy Ghost of God.

If you don't have that knowledge (not just a belief) that God lives and that Jesus is the Christ, you can say 'I believe' until you get purple, you will not enter the kingdom. First of all because you DON'T KNOW where the kingdom is. In other words you have a belief, but is that belief the truth, did God witnessed that your belief is the truth?

But if you go to God humbly and ask Him to show you the true way to get to His kingdom, with real intent, meaning you want to follow what He tells you. Then He gives you a testimony of it, God witness of that truth to your spirit. And when God speaks to your spirit directly, there is no way to deny what you know. Then, you know more than others that don't have that knowledge. That's what I mean by being right. But you will not brag about it, because you obtained that truth humbly. What you will want to do is to tell everyone of what you have found so they can obtain the same knowledge, the same way.

That is what I am trying to do in this forum, but people don't even bother pondering the scriptures much less ask God humbly. Because they 'believe' certain things they think they are safe. Wit all due respect they may be forever looking for fables.

I KNOW that God lives, and that Jesus is the Christ. I know because He gave me a witness of that truth. I don't just 'believe' I have a knowledge of that reality. You don't need to take my word for it. Anyone can have that knowledge. If you are willing I can tell you where to go and how to obtain it.


Have a great day,
mamre

 

[Mike]

As a true Christian, you should rely directly upon God for the truth and not on publications, or opinions of scholars, groups, as mainstream as they may seem to be, or what have you.

mamre.

mamre, flags are going up everywhere. Obviously there is one Truth. There is only one Truth. What concerns me is the posture you take that completely dismisses that someone might have a channel to God on a point that you could possibly have misinterpreted. Your convicted belief set goes beyond what most call "salvation issues". You seem to have no room for personal growth from other Christians.

Proverbs 27:17 "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."

I fully understand holding fast to matters that impact our salvation, but you take your understanding of theology whether they impact salvation or not, and leave no room for growth. Your understanding is plain for anyone to see, and anyone who differs in any way, on any point, is either not reading the Word at all or completely wrong on it. Are you ever the iron that gets sharpened by the other iron? Always the former and never the latter? Has there ever been something someone said that convicted you to re-evaluate your position? If there as been this anomaly, could you share what it was?

From 1 Peter 5:
" 1To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; 3not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. 4And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away."

Acts 2:42
"They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer."

Hebrews 13:17
"Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you."

If you were our pastor and we were your flock, this verse work in your favor. Since we're not your flock, and you're likely not a pastor, it wouldn't. This verse would be speaking to you also.

You say:
Jesus was Created.
We lived as spirits before we were born.
There is no eternal punishment for unsaved souls. They will just cease to exist.

All this you state with the arrogant posture that we, if we weren't simpletons or completely ignorant of scripture, would know. So you've been privy to this insight that is rejected by virtually all major Christian institutions, and they have been duped. (actually, you know what church these beliefs all align with) But, you own the Truth.

You'll say, "I don't own the truth. It's there for all of you to see.", but that's the arrogance that you impose when someone disagrees with these beliefs outside Christian doctrine.

If you were to say, "That's not how I understand it, let me tell you why I believe this...", that could be beneficial.
Instead, you say, "You're not seeing the Truth. It would be clear to you that I'm right if you'd only read the word.

 

[mamre]

As a true Christian, you should rely directly upon God for the truth and not on publications, or opinions of scholars, groups, as mainstream as they may seem to be, or what have you.

mamre.

mamre, Obviously there is one Truth. There is only one Truth.

I am glad that you recognize there is only one truth. However, by recognizing it, that creates a contradiction on what you are saying. See, if someone knows the truth, and bears witness of it, that testimony is not given for a discussion. A testimony given is an invitation to those that hear it to ask God of its truth. For example the entire Bible is a record of testimonies of the truths of the Gospel, and we need to ask the Father about them. What I did here is to give you my testimony, my witness of some principles and invite you to know for yourself.

What I am trying to tell you is that it is possible that there are people that passed beyond the stage of only 'believing,' and that through faith, have obtained a knowledge of some point of God's true doctrine and are anxious to share that in hopes that others will obtain the same knowledge through asking the Father directly.

Do you want stay forever believing never knowing for sure? I am witnessing to you that you can know.

What concerns me is the posture you take that completely dismisses that someone might have a channel to God on a point that you could possibly have misinterpreted.

On the contrary, if you read my posts closely you'll see that I really don't dismiss ANY truth that someone may have. In my posts, I have always recognized things you and others wrote, because I know they are truths. For example, you believe Jesus Christ is our eternal God, I know He is our eternal God. That is the truth. Also, I invite anyone, to do the test, and go the Father on their own to obtain that witness.

Your convicted belief set goes beyond what most call "salvation issues".

You believe that I have a believe set, and don't seem to believe that it is possible for someone to have more than just a belief. However, I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that it is possible for anyone to move beyond the belief stage, and through faith and humility, come to undeniably know the truths of the gospel.

You seem to have no room for personal growth from other Christians.

When one Christian bears testimony of what he/she knows to be true to another, the "testimony" edifies both and makes it increase in both persons. Therefore, when I bear my witness of the truth and another takes it as a witness and goes to the Father to know for him/herself, that person grows more than you can imagine.

However, when you express your belief to another, it is only your belief, which is the same as an opinion. Therefore, people will be offended if you say, or make it appear that your opinion is the right one, no matter how convicted you seem to appear when you express your belief. But I assure you that what I have written is not my opinion, it is not of my own. I am bearing witness of that truth and you can know it if you want.

I apologize if I caused you to think I am putting my beliefs above the others. I know of some truths, but I recognize the truths others know. The source of all truth is God. And anyone can know the truth if they ask God directly.

I will comment on the other part of this post in another post.

Have a great day,
mamre

 

[mamre]

You say:
Jesus was Created.

That is NOT my opinion. See these scriptures:
Col. 1: 15, 23
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:"
Heb. 1: 6
"And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Isa. 43: 10
"...I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."

First born means He was born first; First begotten means He was begotten first; before me there was no God formed directly implies He was formed a God.

So, why you say that is my belief or opinion? I didn't say He is the first born. I didn't say He is the first begotten, I didn't say He was formed. THE SCRIPTURES are saying.

I think the problem you seem to have is with the meaning of the words "created" and "eternal."

Jesus always existed, but not in the form He is now. He became eternal at one point in the eternities. Why we can say that He became eternal. Because of this and other scriptures:
Heb. 5: 5
"So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee."

Everyone can become eternal. Christ said we should be perfect as the Father which is in Heaven. Being eternal doesn't mean to have always existed. It means a glorified life.

Nothing is created out of nothing.

We lived as spirits before we were born.

Again, NOT my opinion. See the scriptures below:

Heb. 1: 6
"And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

If Christ is the first begotten, then there is a second begotten, a third begotten and even billions begotten just like He was, otherwise there was not a need to use the word "first." And all this happened before this earth was created.

Job 38: 7
"Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

When the foundations of the earth were being laid there were no stars yet, as there was not firmament. Besides, stars don't sing. There were also Sons of God shouting for joy because they saw the earth being created. That is clearly pre-mortal life - Sons of God that existed before the earth was created.

Rev. 12: 4
"And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:"

A third of the star of heaven (consistent with the stars mentioned in Job).
We know that a third of the stars of heaven are the spirits that are now upon the earth tempting men. If they are spirits, then the other two thirds were also spirits. They are spirits children of the Most High. See Heb. 12: 9 "...subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?"

There is no eternal punishment for unsaved souls. They will just cease to exist.

With all due respect you seem to be misrepresenting what I have written. And I wrote it more than once.
There IS a punishment. There are those that will have to pay to the justice what they owe as they didn't accept Christ's atonement.

I also NEVER say people cease to exist. Quite the opposite, if the wicked were to cease to exist, it would not be fair, because they would not be paying their debt, they would not feel anything. So they need to resurrect in the second resurrection as immortal physical bodies so they can pay for their wickedness. But that will happen only after the second resurrection and the judgment.

See what the scriptures say about hell:
Pet. 3: 19
"By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"

Acts 2: 27, 31
"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption."

If Christ was in hell (some called Hades) then that can't be the final place of punishment, because Christ was perfect, without sin, He should not have been sent to hell. But the scriptures say He went there to preach to those rebellious spirits. If He preached, it means they could get out of there if they accepted the gospel.

Rev. 20: 6, 14
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."
If hell is giving up its dead, there is no doubt it is a temporary or intermediary place, otherwise the scriptures would say they gave up those that were there.


So there is a hell, which is an intermediary place where the wicked go to wait for the resurrection and final judgment. It is a state of awful expectation. There, the gospel is still preached, as Christ opened those prison doors and those that accept it may leave.

It is all in the scriptures, they are NOT my opinion. Please, set the record straight.

mamre

 

[Mike]

As I studied the Bible I pondered these passages and concepts without having any anyone feeding me any doctrine, and as I have prayed about this, I asked the Father directly in the name of Christ, and I have learned that directly from Him.

This was pulled from our initial discussion on the topic of hell. It has been a constant them in your threads to say you have come to your conclusions entirely through carefully study and pondering. In effect, you're saying that your understanding of scripture is not tainted by man. That would be good, because it shouldn't be. But while in the flesh, we will be subject to all kinds of things that will consciously and subconsciously impact our interpretation of the Bible. I started a thread on this and found no one who disagreed that our history of experiences, our cultural perspective and many other things create a bias (a perspective) in us. It would be wonderful if that weren't the case, but while in the flesh it is. And my comment wasn't strictly on people. Indeed whole denominations and independent churches are subject to our human condition. You say you reject everything you've heard and only find true that which you've arrived at on your own.

What I have learned is that God is a loving, merciful, and a just Father that will give what we deserve. Some will deserve Eternal Life with Him, but many, if not most, will receive various other lesser recompenses commensurate to their deeds.

This also was pulled from our hell discussion. While I know the Bible refers to rewards in Heaven, getting to live for eternity in the presence of God is our inheritance, not for what we have done, but for what Jesus has done for us and coming to put our faith in that. The new Jerusalem will be establish here on earth. Everything will be new. Personally, I'm an amillenneist. I believe that when Christ returns, there will be a final judgment at that time. Some names will be written in the Book of Life, and others will not. The ones who don't, will live on in separation from the Lord for eternity.

I've had discussions with pre-trib and post-trib believers, and I don't try to say that they are definitely wrong and I am right, which is the entire thrust of all of your contributions here. If this were a salvation issue, I would fight vigorously for people to come to an understanding. But, I don't believe it is. With that, I understand that many people within the Body of Christ have different interpretations that have been studied at length and each substantially defended.

There are some outside the Christian church who believe, as this last excerpt from you suggests, that there will be eternal places in between the one for those who's names are written in the Book of Life and those that aren't. Ultimately, there is one place for those go on to live in the presence of the Lord, and one place where they will go on to live forever without it. This is the Christian understanding. Yours is not.

I am glad that you recognize there is only one truth. However, by recognizing it, that creates a contradiction on what you are saying. See, if someone knows the truth, and bears witness of it, that testimony is not given for a discussion.

But this is what we do as Christians. Knowing that we are impacted by our human condition personally, we help to minimize this by coming to a consensus. If someone were to be way off with something from their own interpretation, such as Jesus being created, others would rope them back in and correct them. I'm not saying "truth by majority", but we can avoid getting way off track by using iron to sharpen iron to guide us back when we veer a little.

A testimony given is an invitation to those that hear it to ask God of its truth. For example the entire Bible is a record of testimonies of the truths of the Gospel, and we need to ask the Father about them. What I did here is to give you my testimony, my witness of some principles and invite you to know for yourself.

What I am trying to tell you is that it is possible that there are people that passed beyond the stage of only 'believing,' and that through faith, have obtained a knowledge of some point of God's true doctrine and are anxious to share that in hopes that others will obtain the same knowledge through asking the Father directly.

Do you want stay forever believing never knowing for sure? I am witnessing to you that you can know.

So, you are here to say you have the absolute truth which you've arrived at only through your careful studies, and virtually all of the Christian Church has managed to miss what you have determined on your own. I would say you would have to have a very rare gift to make this claim. Again, if there are Christian churches (and personally I don't include the Jehovah Witness church under this banner), I'd love to hear who they are.

On the contrary, if you read my posts closely you'll see that I really don't dismiss ANY truth that someone may have. In my posts, I have always recognized things you and others wrote, because I know they are truths. For example, you believe Jesus Christ is our eternal God, I know He is our eternal God. That is the truth. Also, I invite anyone, to do the test, and go the Father on their own to obtain that witness.

I said you your position is that Jesus was created; that He has not always existed. I've never said you don't believe He is eternal. Mamre, every one of your posts are very dismissive, and you do go to great lengths to say those who disagree with you should find the truth that you hold. You state over and over again that this truth of yours is plain to see, that we need to fully read scripture to realize you are right and we (the Christian Christ) are wrong.

You believe that I have a believe set, and don't seem to believe that it is possible for someone to have more than just a belief. However, I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that it is possible for anyone to move beyond the belief stage, and through faith and humility, come to undeniably know the truths of the gospel.

You're belittling me and minimizing this word. When Christians talk about having a "Hope" for life everlasting, we aren't wringing our hands in anxiety. Hope in this context is what we expect. We are confident. When I say I have a belief, I'm not saying I don't have study of scripture, that I'm basing my understanding on experience only. In saying, "I believe that...", I'm beginning my statement to open up a dialogue, not a monologue.

This is at the heart of my concern. If someone were to pass off JW doctrine something that is in harmony with Christianity, others could be influenced and believe that perhaps they should leave room for some things such as the points that you brought up. Saying Jesus has not always been serves the JW purpose in limiting His deity. Jesus has never had, and never will have, limitations. He is, has always been, and will always be God. I have had very engaging discussions with members who have been up front and established that they are JW or Mormon, and it has established our perspectives.

While Christians speak of a journey that they are on, you sound like you have already arrived.

 

[Mike]

It is all in the scriptures, they are NOT my opinion. Please, set the record straight.

mamre

Mamre, there is no need to repeat what has been discussed in the previous 60+ posts in this thread alone. It's plain to see, it's plain to see, it's plain to see. You can say "It's not my opinion. It's scriptural." But this is your denial of Christianity that has come from an non-Christian bias in reading scripture. This would appear to be arrogance to the point of being delusional. Christianity held core beliefs for 1800 years before Smith and Russell introduced the doctrine you are talking about. For you to suggest that your beliefs are glaringly obvious to the reader of scripture, that all of Christianity has missed these truths that you have found, is intellectually dishonest.

You are absolutely wrong in your reading into scripture that Jesus was created, IMO and the opinion of all Christianity. You'll never be told this in Watch Tower literature, but you will in Christian churches throughout the world.

mamre, you're not going to admit what you don't want to admit. Okay. But there MUST be some recognized biblical Christian organization that would concur with you if you are to claim Christian faith. Someone legitimate Christian church had to have stumbled upon these beliefs of yours, wouldn't you say?

 

[mamre]

Christianity held core beliefs for 1800 years before Smith and Russell introduced the doctrine you are talking about. For you to suggest that your beliefs are glaringly obvious to the reader of scripture, that all of Christianity has missed these truths that you have found, is intellectually dishonest.
. . .
You are absolutely wrong in your reading into scripture that Jesus was created, IMO and the opinion of all Christianity. You'll never be told this in Watch Tower literature, but you will in Christian churches throughout the world.
. . .
But there MUST be some recognized biblical Christian organization that would concur with you if you are to claim Christian faith. Someone legitimate Christian church had to have stumbled upon these beliefs of yours, wouldn't you say?

[/quote]

First of all I am not a JW. JW would not accept any of this as they have their own particular interpretation of the Bible.

Second of all:
Legitimate Christian Church is one that bear the name, has been organized, ordained and authorized, by Christ Himself.
Heb. 5: 4
"And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron."


You say that there is only one truth, but you contradict yourself saying that for something to be true, it needs to be validated by some religious group that agree with your interpretation. That would not be right because all truth come from God, not some "Christian denomination" made by man.

Here's the difference:

You say a group of fallible, imperfect men needs to validate someone's testimony for it to be true.

I say, one needs to go straight to God in spite of their "old core mainstream beliefs," so GOD can validate that truth. If those core beliefs don't stand that test, than it doesn't matter what you believe.

So, the difference is that you trust in MAN. I trust in GOD for answers, He exists way, way before your "core beliefs."

If antiquity would make some belief true, than the Hindu would be the "purest" truth there is, because their core beliefs are much older than the "Christianity" you claim.

Antiquity and mainstream don't make any belief true if it was not true when it was first formulated.
The SOURCE of truth is God the Most High. And if it doesn't come from HIM, it doesn't matter how old or mainstream your belief is, no matter how many "Christian" groups or churches would validate it for you.

Belief, is not a synonym for truth.

Truth doesn't come from religious groups, not matter if they are Christians or what have you. Truth come from God and if anyone wants to know the truth he/she MUST go directly to Him.

You can ignore the scriptures and expect validation for "core beliefs" from religious groups all you want, but you cannot hide from the truth found in the scriptures:

Firstborn, means one that was born first
First begotten, means one that was begotten first
Eternal is not synonym of having always existed
Jesus always existed, although He became eternal (attained a glorious life) at some point before this earth was created
According to Jesus Christ, in the NT, everyone can become eternal
Jesus has preached the Gospel in hell, therefore hell is a temporary place
Hell will give up its dead, therefore it is a temporary place.
The Sons of God shouted for joy before the earth was create, therefore we existed then

The above doctrines are "Biblical" as they are found in the Bible. They are NOT JW doctrine.

Also, you talked about Christ's atonement:
Make no mistake, eternal life is only obtained through a process of a lifetime of repentance and obedience. Without repentance, the atonement of Christ has no effect. The Grace of God made it possible for man to repent in order to be justified before God. If we don't repent we're not justified, therefore, justice demands a punishment. If one doesn't repent he/she will have to pay the price of justice in that 'lake of fire and brimstone.'
But, if one obeys and repent, He can inherit all that God has. Inheriting all that God has, makes him/her eternal like Christ.

This is also in the Bible.



Have a good day,
mamre

 

[Mike]

You say that there is only one truth, but you contradict yourself saying that for something to be true, it needs to be validated by some religious group that agree with your interpretation.

You're going to have to restructure this thought, because I'm not making any sense out of the premise. I said as a group of people, we can come to a group understanding of what the Holy Spirit has to say. It may not, and sometimes is not, the True meaning, but we can get closer to the Truth by using iron to sharpen iron. "If" you arrived at these "truths" of yours alone (okay, you say not alone, but with God as your companion) which oppose core tenets of virtually all biblical Christian denominations and churches, where does that leave you? As the only person in Christendom who has unlocked the truth? Apparently so, because even you can not name one that does concur with this.

How many people have gone wild, even to the point of being psychotic and homicidal by interpreting Scripture on their own with no one to keep them on track?

I'm assuming you would hold that you've unlocked another "truth" in that the Holy Spirit was created which also contradicts a core tenet of Christianity.

That would not be right because all truth come from God, not some "Christian denomination" made by man.

It is true that the Truth comes from God, not a denomination. But we get as close as we can and use a group to help us, while in the flesh, to do this. And I'm saying ALL denominations disagree with you, not just one! Well, the JW's do, but they're not a Christian denomination. But you already know this.

You say a group of fallible, imperfect men needs to validate someone's testimony for it to be true.

No, I'm saying a group is better than one person arriving at it on his own. If they ALL disagree with one person's interpretation, that person needs to consider if every other Christian group is wrong, or they just might be.

So, the difference is that you trust in MAN. I trust in GOD for answers, He exists way, way before your "core beliefs."

No, not my core beliefs but the beliefs of all Christianity, who have come to a consensus on these Truths from God's Word and prayerful consideration.

You can ignore the scriptures and expect validation for "core beliefs" from religious groups all you want, but you cannot hide from the truth found in the scriptures:

Firstborn, means one that was born first
First begotten, means one that was begotten first
Eternal is not synonym of having always existed
Jesus always existed, although He became eternal (attained a glorious life) at some point before this earth was created
According to Jesus Christ, in the NT, everyone can become eternal
Jesus has preached the Gospel in hell, therefore hell is a temporary place
Hell will give up its dead, therefore it is a temporary place.
The Sons of God shouted for joy before the earth was create, therefore we existed then

The above doctrines are "Biblical" as they are found in the Bible. They are NOT JW doctrine.

Yes, mamre, that's what ALL of Christianity is doing...ignoring scripture. We've all put up walls and not sought God's Truth. No one has read the Bible and carefully, prayerfully and meticulously reached out for the Truth. Only you have. All of Christianity has skipped over the words Firstborn and begotten, ignored them and arrived at our understanding that they are used to describe Jesus' exalted place. Your list above contradicts itself, from what I can tell. Maybe you can clarify how Jesus could be "born first" (point 1) and have "always existed" (point 4). If he always existed, He could have never been born. Point 1 is JW and Mormon doctrine. That we existed (final point) before earth was created is a JW and Mormon doctrine, not a Christian one. By taking the book of Mormon or the revised JW version of the bible, one can arrive at your conclusions.

Also, you talked about Christ's atonement:
Make no mistake, eternal life is only obtained through a process of a lifetime of repentance and obedience. Without repentance, the atonement of Christ has no effect. The Grace of God made it possible for man to repent in order to be justified before God. If we don't repent we're not justified, therefore, justice demands a punishment. If one doesn't repent he/she will have to pay the price of justice in that 'lake of fire and brimstone.'
But, if one obeys and repent, He can inherit all that God has. Inheriting all that God has, makes him/her eternal like Christ.

This is also in the Bible.

Mamre, was the cross insufficient? Did Jesus' sacrifice fall short of accomplishing God's plan for salvation? Did Jesus leave work left undone in dying for our sins? What can we do to earn salvation? Who's doing the work in our salvation, Jesus or us?

 

[mamre]

I said as a group of people, we can come to a group understanding of what the Holy Spirit has to say. It may not, and sometimes is not, the True meaning, but we can get closer to the Truth by using iron to sharpen iron. "If" you arrived at these "truths" of yours alone (okay, you say not alone, but with God as your companion) which oppose core tenets of virtually all biblical Christian denominations and churches, where does that leave you? As the only person in Christendom who has unlocked the truth? Apparently so, because even you can not name one that does concur with this.

How many people have gone wild, even to the point of being psychotic and homicidal by interpreting Scripture on their own with no one to keep them on track?

I'm assuming you would hold that you've unlocked another "truth" in that the Holy Spirit was created which also contradicts a core tenet of Christianity.

Mike,
No one has gone wild, but long ago people rejected the truth when they killed the Apostles. Without the Apostles "...they ...[turned] away their ears from the truth, and ...turned unto fables." Tim 4:4. That opened the way for the enemy to introduce lots of extraneous beliefs and half-truths.

Without the Holy Ghost witnessing the truth to your spirit directly ("The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:" Rom. 8: 16.), it doesn't matter how much you hammer on the iron: it will always be a cold iron.

That's like "Ever learning (hammering on cold iron)*, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." 2 Tim. 3: 7 - You don't need to go far, look at this forum, see the weird ideas Christians are posting here, such as: we all being in the mind of God before being born, God destroying this earth and creating it again when Lucifer rebelled, we're all intended to be spirits, etc. etc., not to mention the number of Christian denominations popping up every day.
*Parenthesis added.

Ask this question to yourself: If you see the truth, how can you recognize it?

Gaining a consensus in a group doesn't make a belief to be true.

However:
Anyone can unlock the truth. I am not the only one that knows these things. I am nobody, I don't have a monopoly on anything, I am just trying to share some things I know to be true.

Even you can unlock the truth. And as you said yourself, there is only one truth.

I am not saying that you don't know truths and I am not trying to contradict or disrespect anyone's beliefs, or saying that Christian denominations don't teach truths. You know some truths, and the religions teach some truths, but not all of it, and they are mixed with other beliefs, traditions and philosophies. I don't know all the truth, but I and many others have a witness given to them from God about other truths that clear and complement what you have learned so far about Christ. They know those truths because they asked God to show them through the Spirit of God. That is how you unlock the truth.

We need to go straight to the Father because, from the beginning of time, the enemy has mixed God's truths with half truths, myths, philosophies of man, superstitions, beliefs, traditions, and plain lies. That is why the apostles were all killed long ago. That thus cleared the way for him to continue to deceive. Didn't the apostle said there were already anti-Christs in the church?

That is how He misleads humankind, he mixes things up, and as you know, people can get pretty convinced they have the truth, but they have only a half-truth, or a tradition based on a partial truth, or a belief that have a bit of the truth. This way he misleads those that don't care to "dig" deeper.

If we only rely on traditions and don't get the truth straight from God to our spirit, we will not be able to discern what is true and what is tradition, and we can be prey to the subtle misleading of the enemy.

mamre

 

[mamre]

It is true that the Truth comes from God, not a denomination. But we get as close as we can and use a group to help us, while in the flesh, to do this. And I'm saying ALL denominations disagree with you, not just one! Well, the JW's do, but they're not a Christian denomination. But you already know this.

mjjcb,

"Get close" is not enough to give eternal life. You need to "Know God and His son, whom He sent." Notice, the scriptures say "know," not "get close," nor "believe." Are you satisfied to "get close" to get life eternal and never get it. That would be true hell.

If you ask the JW's if they believe in pre-mortal existence, they will tell you, categorically, that they believe that "there is no spirit, only living soul, and when you die everything ceases." THAT is not what I have written at all, please set the record straight.

Like your "core beliefs," JW's beliefs come from man's philosophies, traditions, and ideas that are mixed with truths, not directly from God.

mamre

 

[Mike]

Mike,
No one has gone wild, but long ago people rejected the truth when they killed the Apostles.

Mamre, I was referring to people who have gone to extremes, using Scripture to come to deranged legitimacy for justification; for example people who bomb abortion clinics. When one person leaves it to himself to interpret Scripture, they can "go wild". Joseph Smith began a religion on his own. Charles Russell was another.

Without the Holy Ghost witnessing the truth to your spirit directly ("The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:" Rom. 8: 16.), it doesn't matter how much you hammer on the iron: it will always be a cold iron.

That's like "Ever learning (hammering on cold iron)*, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." 2 Tim. 3: 7 - You don't need to go far, look at this forum, see the weird ideas Christians are posting here, such as: we all being in the mind of God before being born, God destroying this earth and creating it again when Lucifer rebelled, we're all intended to be spirits, etc. etc., not to mention the number of Christian denominations popping up every day.
*Parenthesis added.

You're making the assumption that in my description of "iron sharpening iron", they would do so void of any influence of the Holy Spirit. Christians are led by the Holy Spirit and use Scripture to explain to someone coming to wrong conclusions that they need to reconsider their interpretation.

Ask this question to yourself: If you see the truth, how can you recognize it?

I use it by comparing it to the Truths of the Bible, and in many cases, I share my thoughts with a number of people to see if I might be seeing something wrong. I ask for wisdom of the Holy Spirit, but I seek opinions of others to keep myself in check. I allow other iron to sharpen me, because I understand that I am fallible, I'm not perfect and can run the risk of misinterpreting Scripture and my understanding of what the Holy Spirit is telling me.

However:
Anyone can unlock the truth. I am not the only one that knows these things. I am nobody, I don't have a monopoly on anything, I am just trying to share some things I know to be true.

Oh, I acknowledged that you didn't come to these conclusions on your own. JW's and Mormons also share your understandings. I was just playing along with your premise that you unlocked these "truths" on your own.

I am not saying that you don't know truths and I am not trying to contradict or disrespect anyone's beliefs

Except in virtually every post your write. You repeatedly contradict Christian doctrine and claim that our beliefs are due to the fact that we don't read Scripture or that we have no idea of what we are reading.

, or saying that Christian denominations don't teach truths. You know some truths, and the religions teach some truths, but not all of it, and they are mixed with other beliefs, traditions and philosophies. I don't know all the truth

I've never seen you claim anything but that what you say is the truth, and that if we only read Scripture, we would see what you see.

That is how He misleads humankind, he mixes things up,

Was this a mistake in capitalizing "He", or do you believe God misleads humankind and mixes things up?

and as you know, people can get pretty convinced they have the truth, but they have only a half-truth, or a tradition based on a partial truth, or a belief that have a bit of the truth. This way he misleads those that don't care to "dig" deeper.

Or there's the crazy idea that Christians have dug just as deep into Scripture as you have and have still found the Truth which contradicts what you deem the truth?

If we only rely on traditions and don't get the truth straight from God to our spirit, we will not be able to discern what is true and what is tradition, and we can be prey to the subtle misleading of the enemy.

Again, this may be impossible for you to believe, but we don't ignore the Bible and rely completely on tradition. As crazy as this may seem, we also read the Bible. Some of us actually study it. Thank you for the advice, though. We've already read the words that you have. Amazingly, Christianity has not found these truths that you claim are very simple to see if we only would.

 

[mamre]

That is how He misleads humankind, he mixes things up,

Was this a mistake in capitalizing "He", or do you believe God misleads humankind and mixes things up?

Thanks for correcting this. Your are right, the first "he" should not be capitalized as it refers to the enemy.

mamre

 

[mamre]

Except in virtually every post your write. You repeatedly contradict Christian doctrine and claim that our beliefs are due to the fact that we don't read Scripture or that we have no idea of what we are reading.

mjjcb,

It seems we have been a bit astray from the real topic of this thread. But, to clarify your above comment I give below a comparison of what I think is your belief and what I have written. If you look closely, you'll see that I am not dismissing, contradicting any of your Christian beliefs. The only part I stand for is the one where the belief you spouse contradicts the scripture found in the Bible. Take a look:

Your belief:
Jesus Christ is the eternal God.
He has always lived.
He is the creator of this earth and everything else.
He is the author of our salvation.

What I have written and the scriptures say:
Jesus Christ is the eternal God.
He has always lived.
He is the creator of this earth and everything else.
He is the author of our salvation.


Where is the divergence?

Your belief:
Eternal means having always lived

What I have written and the scriptures say:
Eternal is not a synonym of having always lived

Why not?

In Matt. 5: 48 Jesus says:
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

What means to be perfect even as the Father which is in heaven?
It means to be eternal even as the Father which is in heaven. Correct?

What that means?
It means anyone can become eternal (perfect like the Father).

Reasoning:
If I have a beginning and an end, i.e. I was born and I will die, and Jesus says that I can become eternal, then logic says that the word eternal is NOT a synonym for having always lived as I am a mortal. Correct?

What does it mean then?
If God is perfect and is eternal, then being eternal means the type of life God has. Since we know that Jesus and the Father are glorious beings, then eternal means a "glorious life."
In other words: even being mortals now, through obedience we can obtain a "glorious life" like Jesus and the Father. Which means we will live forever; but now we don't live forever.


Conclusion:
What your belief and the scriptures disagree is on the meaning of the word "eternal."

If then, according to the scriptures, being eternal doesn't mean having always lived, then what "having always lived" means, since we know Jesus has always lived? It means He lived in a different form, nevertheless has always lived.

As you can see I am not the one contradicting Christian beliefs at all. I believe and know that Jesus has "always lived," and I know He is the Eternal God, and the author of our salvation.

However, your belief that "eternal" means "have always lived" diverges or contradicts what Jesus Himself says that anyone can become eternal.

If you deny the above, it simply means you believe more on a tradition than on the bible. Because that is not what the Bible says.

What I believe and know that Jesus has always lived, agrees with your belief that Jesus has always lived.

mamre

 

[Mike]

That is how He misleads humankind, he mixes things up,

Was this a mistake in capitalizing "He", or do you believe God misleads humankind and mixes things up?

Thanks for correcting this. Your are right, the first "he" should not be capitalized as it refers to the enemy.

mamre

I didn't think your were saying this. I thought maybe you were talking about verses such as 1 Cor 3

"18Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise. 19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness"; 20and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."

Except in virtually every post your write. You repeatedly contradict Christian doctrine and claim that our beliefs are due to the fact that we don't read Scripture or that we have no idea of what we are reading.

mjjcb,

It seems we have been a bit astray from the real topic of this thread. But, to clarify your above comment I give below a comparison of what I think is your belief and what I have written. If you look closely, you'll see that I am not dismissing, contradicting any of your Christian beliefs. The only part I stand for is the one where the belief you spouse contradicts the scripture found in the Bible. Take a look:

Your belief:
Jesus Christ is the eternal God.
He has always lived.
He is the creator of this earth and everything else.
He is the author of our salvation.

What I have written and the scriptures say:
Jesus Christ is the eternal God.
He has always lived.
He is the creator of this earth and everything else.
He is the author of our salvation.


Where is the divergence?

Your belief:
Eternal means having always lived

What I have written and the scriptures say:
Eternal is not a synonym of having always lived

Why not?

In Matt. 5: 48 Jesus says:
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

What means to be perfect even as the Father which is in heaven?
It means to be eternal even as the Father which is in heaven. Correct?

What that means?
It means anyone can become eternal (perfect like the Father).

Reasoning:
If I have a beginning and an end, i.e. I was born and I will die, and Jesus says that I can become eternal, then logic says that the word eternal is NOT a synonym for having always lived as I am a mortal. Correct?

What does it mean then?
If God is perfect and is eternal, then being eternal means the type of life God has. Since we know that Jesus and the Father are glorious beings, then eternal means a "glorious life."
In other words: even being mortals now, through obedience we can obtain a "glorious life" like Jesus and the Father. Which means we will live forever; but now we don't live forever.


Conclusion:
What your belief and the scriptures disagree is on the meaning of the word "eternal."

If then, according to the scriptures, being eternal doesn't mean having always lived, then what "having always lived" means, since we know Jesus has always lived? It means He lived in a different form, nevertheless has always lived.

As you can see I am not the one contradicting Christian beliefs at all. I believe and know that Jesus has "always lived," and I know He is the Eternal God, and the author of our salvation.

However, your belief that "eternal" means "have always lived" diverges or contradicts what Jesus Himself says that anyone can become eternal.

If you deny the above, it simply means you believe more on a tradition than on the bible. Because that is not what the Bible says.

What I believe and know that Jesus has always lived, agrees with your belief that Jesus has always lived.

mamre

You keep on saying this, but I don't know where you got it that I see "eternal" as "always existed". Eternal as I understand it, describes the nature of someone or something going on forever. I don't believe I ever said they were the same.

It really seems like you are contradicting yourself. How can you say Jesus has always lived and yet say He was created? If He was created, than He hasn't always lived. This is not scriptural. Before I respond with too much, I was hoping for clarification on this point.

 

[mamre]

You keep on saying this, but I don't know where you got it that I see "eternal" as "always existed". Eternal as I understand it, describes the nature of someone or something going on forever. I don't believe I ever said they were the same.

It really seems like you are contradicting yourself. How can you say Jesus has always lived and yet say He was created? If He was created, than He hasn't always lived. This is not scriptural. Before I respond with too much, I was hoping for clarification on this point.

mjjcb,

Yes, you did. You said that you believe that Jesus has always been in one of your first posted comments.

Always been is the same as always existed.

But now, that we know the scriptures say that eternal is not the same as "have always existed" or "have always been," you moved to the term "created."

Your believe:
Jesus was never created

What I have written and the scriptures say:
Jesus is the first born of every creature. There is no other God formed before or after Him.
Jesus is the first begotten.


As you can see I and the scriptures say that Jesus is the first born of every creature and the first begotten of the Father.

What that means?
It means that created must mean something different than what your belief understands.

If Jesus, the Eternal God, as the scriptures say, always existed, than He cannot possibly have been created as you understand it.


Analogy:
I am a father. I have 'fathered' three children. In a way I can say I have created them, but in reality what I did is to have begotten them. I have a first born son and two daughters that were born after him.

But notice, they were not begotten from nothing. They were generated out of organized matter that already existed in me and in my wife. They didn't exist before as individual physical persons. But, they existed before as spirit persons. To be conceived there was a need of previous existing sperm and eggs. They were not created out of nothing.

The above process of generating is traced back to God forming Adam. Adam was not created out of nothing. Genesis says he was formed from the dust, a substance that already existed previously, and then God put his spirit in that body He formed for Adam. If you go back a little further, the dust from which Adam came, came from the earth which was formed out of matter unorganized that existed before.

So as you can see, things are not created out of nothing. Therefore, the word created doesn't mean that something that was created didn't exist before.

The scriptures use the term first born in exactly the same sense we use, except that in that case, when it applies to Jesus Christ it is talking about forming His spirit. When God begot His spirit, He did it out of an already existing form of intelligence.

Intelligences existed forever before, they don't have beginning or ending. He, Jesus was the first intelligence to be begotten into a spirit child of the Most High. After Him others became spirit to, thus forming the family of our Father in Heaven. (That is why we call the Most High, Father, because we all are part of His family. And families on earth are on the likeness of the family of God.)

The greatest of all things about Jesus is that since the beginning when He was begotten as a spirit, He was perfectly obedient. So much so that He became the most beloved of God's spirit children. So much so that He became God and received, from the Father, the privilege of creating this world and prepare everything in Heaven for the salvation of the other spirits God had begotten after Him. And we, as spirits in that pre-mortal life, saw how loving and perfectly obedient He was. We wanted to follow Him. Some became jealous of Him and rebelled, a third of those spirits, in fact.

So, as you can see, the concept of creating doesn't mean, snapping something out of nothing. The creation was an act of organization out of already existing matter. Spirits were begotten out of entities already existing. And that is the meaning of infinity. It has no ending, and it has no beginning. But things exist in different forms forever.


mamre

 

[Free]

What I have written and the scriptures say:
Jesus is the first born of every creature. There is no other God formed before or after Him.
Jesus is the first begotten.


As you can see I and the scriptures say that Jesus is the first born of every creature and the first begotten of the Father.

What that means?
It means that created must mean something different than what your belief understands.

If Jesus, the Eternal God, as the scriptures say, always existed, than He cannot possibly have been created as you understand it.


Analogy:
I am a father. I have 'fathered' three children. In a way I can say I have created them, but in reality what I did is to have begotten them. I have a first born son and two daughters that were born after him.

But notice, they were not begotten from nothing. They were generated out of organized matter that already existed in me and in my wife. They didn't exist before as individual physical persons. But, they existed before as spirit persons. To be conceived there was a need of previous existing sperm and eggs. They were not created out of nothing.

The above process of generating is traced back to God forming Adam. Adam was not created out of nothing. Genesis says he was formed from the dust, a substance that already existed previously, and then God put his spirit in that body He formed for Adam. If you go back a little further, the dust from which Adam came, came from the earth which was formed out of matter unorganized that existed before.

So as you can see, things are not created out of nothing. Therefore, the word created doesn't mean that something that was created didn't exist before.

The scriptures use the term first born in exactly the same sense we use, except that in that case, when it applies to Jesus Christ it is talking about forming His spirit. When God begot His spirit, He did it out of an already existing form of intelligence.

Intelligences existed forever before, they don't have beginning or ending. He, Jesus was the first intelligence to be begotten into a spirit child of the Most High. After Him others became spirit to, thus forming the family of our Father in Heaven. (That is why we call the Most High, Father, because we all are part of His family. And families on earth are on the likeness of the family of God.)

The greatest of all things about Jesus is that since the beginning when He was begotten as a spirit, He was perfectly obedient. So much so that He became the most beloved of God's spirit children. So much so that He became God and received, from the Father, the privilege of creating this world and prepare everything in Heaven for the salvation of the other spirits God had begotten after Him. And we, as spirits in that pre-mortal life, saw how loving and perfectly obedient He was. We wanted to follow Him. Some became jealous of Him and rebelled, a third of those spirits, in fact.

So, as you can see, the concept of creating doesn't mean, snapping something out of nothing. The creation was an act of organization out of already existing matter. Spirits were begotten out of entities already existing. And that is the meaning of infinity. It has no ending, and it has no beginning. But things exist in different forms forever.

You're wrong on almost all counts. Jesus is God and has always existed. No one existed as a spirit prior to being born. There is no Scriptural proof for most of your assertions.

 

[Mike]

You keep on saying this, but I don't know where you got it that I see "eternal" as "always existed". Eternal as I understand it, describes the nature of someone or something going on forever. I don't believe I ever said they were the same.

It really seems like you are contradicting yourself. How can you say Jesus has always lived and yet say He was created? If He was created, than He hasn't always lived. This is not scriptural. Before I respond with too much, I was hoping for clarification on this point.

mjjcb,

Yes, you did. You said that you believe that Jesus has always been in one of your first posted comments.

Always been is the same as always existed.

Mamre where are you pulling this from? I said "eternal" is not the same as "always existed"!!! "Always existed" is the same as "always been". I'm getting old trying to make sense out of what you are arguing. You said I had a problem with confusing "eternal" with "always existed", I responded that I don't see them as the same. Then you respond to me that I did because "always existed" is the same as "always been". Huh?

I'm not going to restate everything that's lead to this point. You're making the same non-scriptural arguments by interpreting scripture incorrectly that you have from the beginning. I'm past the point of trying to have you come to your senses and seek the Lord on this. You've closed your mind to some of the most basic, fundamental of Christian foundations. You can continue to sit on your island and believe that which separates you from Christianity. Feel free to believe that Jesus has not always been, that He hasn't always existed. We agree that He's eternal. But you've built a wall between yourself and the Truth that Christianity holds.

You continue to contradict yourself. You say Jesus always existed and then you say He hasn't. If He was formed, He was created. If He was created, then He has not always existed.

Jesus was never created. He has always been. He is God. God does not have a beginning.

But please stop being an impostor. By saying that you are a Christian who differs so boldly from matters fundamental to our faith, you give the mistaken impression that this view is consistent with Christianity. This why I am convinced that you are a JW, or possibly a Mormon, cloaking yourself as a Christian. They would agree with this blasphemy. And that is why JW's and Mormons are technically not allowed in the Christian Only Forums. Not that this site defines what this means, but this is to say my view is not something crazy that I believe by myself. It is widely recognized that they are not Christians, because they don't agree on salvation issues.

 

[Mike]

You're wrong on almost all counts. Jesus is God and has always existed. No one existed as a spirit prior to being born. There is no Scriptural proof for most of your assertions.

Very true! 100%!!!

I'm through trying to convince him, though. I just want him to stop claiming to be a Christian or giving the impression that there's any room for this heresy within Christianity.

 

[n2thelight]

You're wrong on almost all counts. Jesus is God and has always existed. No one existed as a spirit prior to being born. There is no Scriptural proof for most of your assertions.

Very true! 100%!!!

I'm through trying to convince him, though. I just want him to stop claiming to be a Christian or giving the impression that there's any room for this heresy within Christianity.

Romans 9:13
"As it is written "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Why did God hate Esau before he was even born?and please don't tell me He hated him in His mind....

How did He know thee before thee being formed?And again please don't say because He knows all things........