Did we live as spirits before the earth was created?

[francisdesales]

Romans 9:13
"As it is written "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

Refering to the nation of Judah v Edom...

Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

That God ordained a prophet to send to Judah does not mean that Jeremiah existed BEFORE he was formed in the womb...

God's plan of salvation existed before Adam and Eve were formed...

Regards

 

[mamre]

You're wrong on almost all counts. Jesus is God and has always existed. No one existed as a spirit prior to being born. There is no Scriptural proof for most of your assertions.

Very true! 100%!!!

I'm through trying to convince him, though. I just want him to stop claiming to be a Christian or giving the impression that there's any room for this heresy within Christianity.

Free,
And you are absolutely right, a 100% right! Jesus has always existed.

First, from a pure intelligence (which has no beginning or ending), He was begotten (the first born of all creatures) by the Father to become a spirit child of the Most High. As a spirit, He grew in obedience and Grace through eternities. Because of His obedience, God loved Him so much as He has always done the will of the Father. Because of that the Father made Him His Son. (See Hebrews: "Thou are my Son this day I have begotten thee). Which means to say He became a God like the Father while still a spirit. As such, Jesus was entrusted with all the Father has, even before coming to this earth. Jesus then became the Creator of all physical things and the one who prepared everything in Heaven for the salvation of men.

Then He came to earth as one of us to receive a physical body as God the Most High has. He died for us, resurrected physically and was given His earned right place at the right side of God the Most High as He completed the preparations for the salvation of all those who truly follow Him.

He inherited everything the Father Has and is now, as Paul says in Ephesians, "a perfect man." As such He is the perfect example for us to follow to become "perfect like unto our Father in Heaven."

Now, you mention "scriptural proof." For that proof you need to consider this question first: What is scripture?

Hint questions:
Is scripture only the Bible?
Or, is Scripture every word the comes out of the mouth of God?


Have a great day,
mamre

 

[mamre]

You're wrong on almost all counts. Jesus is God and has always existed. No one existed as a spirit prior to being born. There is no Scriptural proof for most of your assertions.

I answer to the wrong post. No matter. Here it goes:


Free,
And you are absolutely right, a 100% right! Jesus has always existed.

First, from a pure intelligence (which has no beginning or ending), He was begotten (the first born of all creatures) by the Father to become a spirit child of the Most High. As a spirit, He grew in obedience and Grace through eternities. Because of His obedience, God loved Him so much as He has always done the will of the Father. Because of that the Father made Him His Son. (See Hebrews: "Thou are my Son this day I have begotten thee). Which means to say He became a God like the Father while still a spirit. As such, Jesus was entrusted with all the Father has, even before coming to this earth. Jesus then became the Creator of all physical things and the one who prepared everything in Heaven for the salvation of men.

Then He came to earth as one of us to receive a physical body as God the Most High has. He died for us, resurrected physically and was given His earned right place at the right side of God the Most High as He completed the preparations for the salvation of all those who truly follow Him.

He inherited everything the Father Has and is now, as Paul says in Ephesians, "a perfect man." As such He is the perfect example for us to follow to become "perfect like unto our Father in Heaven."

Now, you mention "scriptural proof." For that proof you need to consider this question first: What is scripture?

Hint questions:
Is scripture only the Bible?
Or, is Scripture every word the comes out of the mouth of God?


Have a great day,
mamre

 

[Bick]

My answer is NO!

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Gen. 2:7, AV.

NOTICE: A separate soul was not joined to a prepared body. Man became a living soul when the breath of the spirit of lif was breathed into his nostrils.

A study of "Soul" will show that the Scriptures relate knowledge, memory, thought, love, joy, delight, bitterness, distress, impatience, mourning, sorrow, grief, abhorrence and hatred to the soul.

Nowhere in Scripture is the soul said to be immortal.

When man is living he is a "living soul (being) capable of sensation and experience;
When man dies, he is a dead soul (being). He is said to return to the dust from which he came (Gen. 3:19; Job 10:9; Psa. 90:3, etc).

Since man is wherever his body is, when he dies, his body decays and returns to dust.
Since his soul (feelings, memory, consciousnes etc,) is not an entity, in the Scriptures it is spoken of as going to the unseen (Or the grave: Sheol--Heb.; Hades--Gk.), thus just disappears. See Acts 2:25-28, where "hell" in the AV, is literally, "Hades," equivalent to "Sheol" in Psa. 16:10.

Man's spirit, his life force related to breath, is being formed in him as long as he is alive and breathing, but when he expires his spirit is said to return to God who gave it (Eccl. 12:7; Zech. 12:1).

 

[n2thelight]

Romans 9:13
"As it is written "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

Refering to the nation of Judah v Edom...

Romans 9:11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him That calleth;"

Why or how could God hate esau before he was born,regardless of what is being referred

Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

That God ordained a prophet to send to Judah does not mean that Jeremiah existed BEFORE he was formed in the womb...


God's plan of salvation existed before Adam and Eve were formed...

Regards

Why did God need a plan of salvation before Adam and Eve were formed?

When did satan rebelle?If before Adam and Eve were formed,why didn't God just destroy him and his followers at that time?

satan was not always evil and he was not created that way,he actually was one of the highest ranking angels,so what was going on during the time that he wasn't evil?

 

[n2thelight]

My answer is NO!

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Gen. 2:7, AV.

NOTICE: A separate soul was not joined to a prepared body. Man became a living soul when the breath of the spirit of lif was breathed into his nostrils.

A study of "Soul" will show that the Scriptures relate knowledge, memory, thought, love, joy, delight, bitterness, distress, impatience, mourning, sorrow, grief, abhorrence and hatred to the soul.

Nowhere in Scripture is the soul said to be immortal.

When man is living he is a "living soul (being) capable of sensation and experience;
When man dies, he is a dead soul (being). He is said to return to the dust from which he came (Gen. 3:19; Job 10:9; Psa. 90:3, etc).

Since man is wherever his body is, when he dies, his body decays and returns to dust.
Since his soul (feelings, memory, consciousnes etc,) is not an entity, in the Scriptures it is spoken of as going to the unseen (Or the grave: Sheol--Heb.; Hades--Gk.), thus just disappears. See Acts 2:25-28, where "hell" in the AV, is literally, "Hades," equivalent to "Sheol" in Psa. 16:10.

Man's spirit, his life force related to breath, is being formed in him as long as he is alive and breathing, but when he expires his spirit is said to return to God who gave it (Eccl. 12:7; Zech. 12:1).

So where was that spirit before it became apart of the flesh and what happens to it when returned to God?

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

These are clearly souls that have returned to the Father,after death.Do they have flesh,no they don't,so why is so hard to see that they were like this before being born of woman....

 

[Mike]

Why did God need a plan of salvation before Adam and Eve were formed?

When did satan rebelle?If before Adam and Eve were formed,why didn't God just destroy him and his followers at that time?

satan was not always evil and he was not created that way,he actually was one of the highest ranking angels,so what was going on during the time that he wasn't evil?

How is any of this pointing toward souls existing before He created us? Satan was a created angel. How or why he sought to undermine God is only speculation. Still, how is this germane to the topic?

The whole line of thought in this thread is of Mormonism and Jehovah's Witness doctrine. It's in no way regarded by Christianity.

 

[Mike]

So where was that spirit before it became apart of the flesh and what happens to it when returned to God?

Revelation 6:9 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

These are clearly souls that have returned to the Father,after death.Do they have flesh,no they don't,so why is so hard to see that they were like this before being born of woman....

Our bodies will be resurrected when everything is made new and the new Kingdom is established. Again, how is this offering evidence that our souls existed before we were born?

 

[n2thelight]

Why did God need a plan of salvation before Adam and Eve were formed?

When did satan rebelle?If before Adam and Eve were formed,why didn't God just destroy him and his followers at that time?

satan was not always evil and he was not created that way,he actually was one of the highest ranking angels,so what was going on during the time that he wasn't evil?

How is any of this pointing toward souls existing before He created us? Satan was a created angel. How or why he sought to undermine God is only speculation. Still, how is this germane to the topic?

The whole line of thought in this thread is of Mormonism and Jehovah's Witness doctrine. It's in no way regarded by Christianity.

Asked earlier now I ask again,who are these in the below scripture?

Job 38:7
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Now taken together with scriptures I provided earlier,there is no doubt,example below

Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

He knew him because he was singing and/or shouting for joy,when God created this earth....How else can you know someone before they were born?

 

[francisdesales]

Why did God need a plan of salvation before Adam and Eve were formed?

Being eternal, God already foresaw Adam and Eve's choice.

When did satan rebelle?If before Adam and Eve were formed,why didn't God just destroy him and his followers at that time?

Before Adam and Eve were formed, yes. Why didn't God destroy Satan? I'm thinking because God desired that man be forged so that the dross would be removed and that mankind's loving response to God would be more to God's liking. God brings out good from suffering and evil, although we don't always see it that way.

Also, to love requires a choice be made. There must be a choice of rejection open so that love is freely given.

 

[mamre]

Why did God need a plan of salvation before Adam and Eve were formed?

When did satan rebelle?If before Adam and Eve were formed,why didn't God just destroy him and his followers at that time?

satan was not always evil and he was not created that way,he actually was one of the highest ranking angels,so what was going on during the time that he wasn't evil?

How is any of this pointing toward souls existing before He created us? Satan was a created angel. How or why he sought to undermine God is only speculation. Still, how is this germane to the topic?

The whole line of thought in this thread is of Mormonism and Jehovah's Witness doctrine. It's in no way regarded by Christianity.

Asked earlier now I ask again,who are these in the below scripture?

Job 38:7
When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Now taken together with scriptures I provided earlier,there is no doubt,example below

Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

He knew him because he was singing and/or shouting for joy,when God created this earth....How else can you know someone before they were born?

onelove,

That is excellent reasoning based on the scriptures. Morning stars and Sons of God indicate that there was creation before this earth was ever built. The "Father of spirits" (Heb.) created us as spirit children before this earth existed. Lucifer rebelled because he became jealous of the first born, and wanted to exalt himself (Isaiah) above the throne of the Father. Lucifer became Satan (the one who rebelled) and a third of those spirits followed him (Rev.).

The beautiful thing in Job scripture is that they "shouted for joy." That is a clear indication that there was a plan, and that creating the earth was an expectation. It indicates there was a purpose, which was to help us to have experience that would enable those that are faithful to become "perfect like our Father which is in heaven" (John). And to be a "perfect man" after the fullness of the stature of Christ" (Ephesians).

I think the most wonderful of all this is that, Jesus is our exemplar, our champion and the most faithful friend. Because He did reach the fullness of His stature, we can too. He not only gave the example that we can be like the Father, but He prepared the way through His atonement. So, that way, we can work out our own salvation (Phil.) through repentance because He created the conditions for it.


Doesn't this make sense? We don't need to speculate if we base our reasoning on the scriptures.

mamre

 

[n2thelight]

mamre
The beautiful thing in Job scripture is that they "shouted for joy." That is a clear indication that there was a plan, and that creating the earth was an expectation. It indicates there was a purpose, which was to help us to have experience that would enable those that are faithful to become "perfect like our Father which is in heaven" (John). And to be a "perfect man" after the fullness of the stature of Christ" (Ephesians).

Couldn't agree more,just don't understand why people can't see what is so ovious...

 

[Free]

mamre
The beautiful thing in Job scripture is that they "shouted for joy." That is a clear indication that there was a plan, and that creating the earth was an expectation. It indicates there was a purpose, which was to help us to have experience that would enable those that are faithful to become "perfect like our Father which is in heaven" (John). And to be a "perfect man" after the fullness of the stature of Christ" (Ephesians).

Couldn't agree more,just don't understand why people can't see what is so ovious...

Because it isn't true. Using obscure verses to try and prove a doctrine which is either in disagreement with, or not at all mentioned in, the rest of Scripture is not the proper way to do theology.

 

[Mike]

mamre
The beautiful thing in Job scripture is that they "shouted for joy." That is a clear indication that there was a plan, and that creating the earth was an expectation. It indicates there was a purpose, which was to help us to have experience that would enable those that are faithful to become "perfect like our Father which is in heaven" (John). And to be a "perfect man" after the fullness of the stature of Christ" (Ephesians).

Couldn't agree more,just don't understand why people can't see what is so ovious...

Well, then it's settled. 2000 years of misinterpreting the Bible finally put to rest. Whew! We were waiting for you to come along! Where were you when the Books were written? You could have set us straight by re-writing the original text to begin with!

Instead, we have to deal with the Word as we have it and go on thinking Jesus "always was" and our spirits were created when we were conceived.

It's funny, because when I google "When our spirits were created", all I get are LDS and JW sites. Why do you two suppose that would be?

 

[stranger]

mamre wrote:

That is excellent reasoning based on the scriptures. Morning stars and Sons of God indicate that there was creation before this earth was ever built. The "Father of spirits" (Heb.) created us as spirit children before this earth existed. Lucifer rebelled because he became jealous of the first born, and wanted to exalt himself (Isaiah) above the throne of the Father. Lucifer became Satan (the one who rebelled) and a third of those spirits followed him (Rev.).

When the scriptures speak of a new heavens and a new earth -- we can presuppose that the same order applied for the existing heavens and earth. The genesis accounts focus is on man - God formed man and breathed into man the breadth of life. The angelic world existed before this but not much is revealed about it.

Hebrews 12:9
Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?

The comparison or analogy here is between our earthly fathers and the heavenly Father. A word search for spirit children yields nothing.

As a matter of interest what version of the bible are you using? Does this tread have anything to do the Mormons or the serpent seed theory?

 

[stranger]

mamre
The beautiful thing in Job scripture is that they "shouted for joy." That is a clear indication that there was a plan, and that creating the earth was an expectation. It indicates there was a purpose, which was to help us to have experience that would enable those that are faithful to become "perfect like our Father which is in heaven" (John). And to be a "perfect man" after the fullness of the stature of Christ" (Ephesians).

Couldn't agree more,just don't understand why people can't see what is so ovious...

Well, then it's settled. .....

It's funny, because when I google "When our spirits were created", all I get are LDS and JW sites. Why do you two suppose that would be?

Hi,

add Mormons to that list and the serpent seed theory.

 

[jasoncran]

lds is the mormons

 

[Mysteryman]

lds is the mormons

I thought everyone knew that Jason. I guess the information about what LDS stands for, is being silenced in some way. :D

Now, what does RCC stand for ?

 

[Sinthesis]

The beautiful thing in Job scripture is that they "shouted for joy." ...
Doesn't this make sense? We don't need to speculate if we base our reasoning on the scriptures.

mamre

Just wondering what aberrant theology false teachers could build out of these 'stones'.

• Luke 19:40 - And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

:crazy

 

[mamre]

Well, then it's settled. 2000 years of misinterpreting the Bible finally put to rest. Whew! We were waiting for you to come along! Where were you when the Books were written? You could have set us straight by re-writing the original text to begin with!

Instead, we have to deal with the Word as we have it and go on thinking Jesus "always was" and our spirits were created when we were conceived.

It's funny, because when I google "When our spirits were created", all I get are LDS and JW sites. Why do you two suppose that would be?

Hi Mike,
You don't need to be confused. There are truth everywhere. The trick is to separate it from the philosophies of man and the lies of the enemy. The objective of Satan is to keep us from finding our way to Father in Heaven. He will use everything he can to make truth hard to find. The most effective way he has utilized is to mix truth with half-truths.
That is why we need the Holy Spirit of God. Through the Holy Ghost we can discern the truth of everything. In Romans, Paul says the the Spirit of God witness directly to our spirit the things of God. If you can obtain the witness directly from God then you can discern the truth from error. In fact, you don't need to rely an anyone's interpretation or tradition.

The world have been interpreting the Bible for centuries after they killed the Apostles, which were the one's chosen to guide the church. After they were killed, the plain truths of the Gospel have either been lost or just mixed up with human interpretation.

There was a very long period where it was forbidden for the common men to read the Bible. That's because those that retained the power didn't want any different interpretation than their's.

That's what happens without the Spirit of God. And without the Spirit of God, that's all you have, interpretation. Just look around you and you see thousands of denominations, each of them have their own interpretation of the bible. It reminds me of the scriptures that says that would teachers saying, "here's the Christ," or "there is the Christ."

You should not rely on anyone's interpretation because your salvation depend on if what you believe is truth or not. If you truly want know the truth you need to study the scriptures individually, ponder about them without the influence of any interpretation and pray to God directly in the name of Christ to obtain a witness of its truths. They you have the truth by the spirit, not a mere interpretation.

mamre