Bible Study Die And Go To Heaven

[Chopper]

Brother Chopper, I'll not commit myself, but I would like to read along without comment most of the time.

That's OK Buddy, I'll just bet that you won't be able to remain silent. You have so much knowledge and a wonderful heart, that you'll see where you need to comment...Love you.

 

[NeedTheLord]

Amen. We need all of us! Thank You, Lord!

 

[Chopper]

Amen. We need all of us! Thank You, Lord!

God bless you this morning Kathy.

 

[for_his_glory]

So where is the soul?

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Here dust + breath from God = a living soul. When the flesh dies physically it returns back to the dust of the ground and our soul is preserved with God for final judgment.

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

We return to the dust of the ground when this physical body dies and our breath/soul returns to God as we wait for Gods final judgment.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Our soul can never die and is preserved until Gods final judgment at the end of time.

 

[for_his_glory]

Thank you TOG for your insightful response. I appreciate a response that doesn't shoot someone down. Today, I read in Isaiah 66:2 "This is the one to whom I will look; he who is humble and contrite in spirit and trembles at My Word." l wish that everyone who uses this Forum would operate with this verse in mind.

:amen

 

[Deborah13]

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Here dust + breath from God = a living soul. When the flesh dies physically it returns back to the dust of the ground and our soul is preserved with God for final judgment.

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

We return to the dust of the ground when this physical body dies and our breath/soul returns to God as we wait for Gods final judgment.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Our soul can never die and is preserved until Gods final judgment at the end of time.

Thank you for your response.
Blessings to you

 

[for_his_glory]

and you also

 

[NeedTheLord]

Hugging everybody back!
Loving and Thanking God for His Children and
The Wisdom He Has Given.

 

[The Gospels]

wrong... there are only a few that are good, and judgment day has to come for the new heaven..

 

[KiouxS]

Yeah, I think after we die, we just go to heaven immediately. God will protect us from the danger.

 

[Michael74]

I have noticed that the Old Testament says things like:

"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.
Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun." Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 NIV

Scriptures quoted about eternal soul life tend to be from the New Testament. Could this be some sort of progressive revelation, with the New Testament giving a more complete revelation?

Before Jesus came to ransom us (OT), people were basically doomed. Now that Jesus has ransomed us (NT), we have life eternal.

"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them." John 3:36 NIV

 

[Bick]

"I heard someone say on the forum, (I forget who) who said that when we die we immediately go to heaven.
Is this statement true?" Angel's quote.

It is my belief from the Scriptures (the final word for truth), that when we die, we have ceased from all life, but will be made alive (if believers) when the church body of Christ is caught away to meet Christ in the air, and then be with Him in the heavens.
Ref. 1 Cor. 15:51-57 and 1 Thes.4:13-18.

 

[Chopper]

Hi Bick, there are many, many, different interpretations of this subject. I believe that the Apostle Paul is very clear that "absent from the body is present with the Lord." There are those who believe in "soul sleep" that believe that whenever a rapture happens, or the final resurrection at the end of this age, they will awake and forever be with the Lord....I adhere to Paul's statement in the Word.

 

[Michael74]

But about the resurrection of the dead--have you not read what God said to you, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.

 

[eddif]

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 is used by many to say when we die we immediately go to be with the Lord in heaven, but these verses do not mean that at all. If you go back to verse one and two in chapter 5 the tabernacle being spoken of is our fleshly body and when we are in the flesh we are separated from God because flesh and Spirit can not mix, Romans 8:6, 7, and God can not see our flesh, John 9:31. Sin separates us from God because God is a spirit and can only recognize his own children by what spirit is living in their hearts. We have to renew, rebirth – born again Gods Spirit within us in order to be called a child of God and see the kingdom of heaven. We now put off the old man (flesh) and put on the new man (Spirit), Colossians 3:1-17. We are renewed by the word of God and through the Holy Spirit teaching us of all things, John 14:26.

John 3:6 that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit. When we are in the flesh or at home in the body this is our natural carnal being that God can not see because of the sin nature in us. When we are in the Spirit allowing Gods Spirit to take over the flesh then we are in the presence of the Lord through the Holy Spirit that dwells in us.

God breathed life into us and when this flesh body dies that spirit of life that was breathed in us will go back to God, Ecclesiastics 12:7, and this flesh body will return to the dust of the ground from where it came from until we are resurrected when Jesus comes to take us into the clouds, 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, which is the first heaven that is atmosphere where we will be raised incorruptible, 1 Corinthians 15:52.

(Note: there are three heavens)

First heaven is the firmament, Earths Atmosphere, which is the immediate sky, Genesis 2:19; 7:3, 23; Psalms 8:8; Lamentations 4:19. The second heaven is the starry heavens, where our atmosphere ends. It is the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars are fixed in orbit, Deuteronomy 17:3; Jeremiah 8:2; Matthew 24:29. Third Heaven is where God and the holy angels and spirits of just men dwell. It is called “The heaven of heavens,” Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4; 1Kings 8:27; Psalms 2:4.

Nowhere in the Bible does it state what we will actually look like when we return with Jesus when he plants His feet on the Mount of Olives and fights the final battle as described in Zechariah chapter 4, except that we will be conformed to His glorious body, Philippians 3:21; 1Corinthians 15:43; 1John 3:2. After this final siege of Jerusalem is won by Christ forever then the new heaven and new earth will be ushered in as the old heaven and earth will pass away.

The soul and the spirit are connected, but separable (Hebrews 4:12). The soul is the essence of humanity’s being; it is who we are. The spirit is the aspect of humanity that connects with God. Only those who have faith in Christ are those who are spiritually alive while those with unbelief in Christ are spiritually dead, 1Corinthians 2:11; Hebrews 4:12; James 2:26; Ephesians 2:1-5; Colossians 2:13.

The spirit that is in man is either the spirit that connects with God or connects with the principalities of this world, the ruler of wickedness in dark places. Just because a person lives a good life, helps others and seems to be an all around good person whether they are alive or dead when Christ returns will be resurrected unto damnation if they are not renewed by the Spirit of God through His grace for their remissions of sin.

Now is the time for repentance as Matthew 24:36 says that no one knows when Jesus will return, not even himself or the angels, but God alone knows when. It could be in our lifetime, but if not one must also be prepared before the grave.
(John 5:22-30; Rev 14:14-20 20:11-15)

I wonder how much sense I can make in this post? I agree with your post. We desire to be present with The Lord. II Corinthians 5:8. Is about we would like to do. We would cease to minister to others if we were dead ( with the exception of our life continues to be an influence).

We can be seated with Jesus in heavenly places when sin no longer has total dominion over us. Though the body is a problem, our minds serve the law of Christ. Jesus was not spiritually destroyed on earth. The wilderness spiritual type of Gods presence was not destroyed by the sin around it ( we still see the symbolism today). The grave does not destroy our promise of heaven. We are going to the other side no matter of what storm we see. Just because death comes to us; that does not stop our arrival in eternity.

Living in a body evidently does not stop us from a relationship with God. We are seated in heavenly places, and have Christ / Holy Spirit while alive ( in spite of the body of death).

eddif

 

[JLB]

I am very confused.

Sleep in the dust is a reference to the person's body,


6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:6-7

...while we are in the body, we are absent from the Lord.

...rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

As soon as he was absent from the body, he would be present with the Lord

Why would Paul be well pleased to be absent from the body, if he wasn't immediately with the Lord.

"Who are these?

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" 14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. Revelation 7:9,13-14


The saints in heaven prepare to return with Jesus at the Second Coming -

8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Revelation 19:8,14-15


Here is a look at that same event from earth -

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:14

and again -

4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:4-5



These scriptures show us that the saints who are absent from there bodies are with the Lord in Heaven, and will return with Him at the Second Coming.


Those who sleep is a reference to the body that is dead [sleep], the person is with the Lord in heaven.

Sleep in the dust is a reference to the person's body, not their spirit man [spirit & soul], which goes to be with the Lord in heaven, or before Jesus was crucified they were in the heart of the earth in Paradise [Abraham's Bosom].


JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

I wonder how much sense I can make in this post? I agree with your post. We desire to be present with The Lord. II Corinthians 5:8. Is about we would like to do. We would cease to minister to others if we were dead ( with the exception of our life continues to be an influence).

We can be seated with Jesus in heavenly places when sin no longer has total dominion over us. Though the body is a problem, our minds serve the law of Christ. Jesus was not spiritually destroyed on earth. The wilderness spiritual type of Gods presence was not destroyed by the sin around it ( we still see the symbolism today). The grave does not destroy our promise of heaven. We are going to the other side no matter of what storm we see. Just because death comes to us; that does not stop our arrival in eternity.

Living in a body evidently does not stop us from a relationship with God. We are seated in heavenly places, and have Christ / Holy Spirit while alive ( in spite of the body of death).

eddif

If we be in Christ and Christ in us then the grave has no victory. 1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

 

[Jack Hectorman]

I agree with:
Kathi @ Posts 2 & 7
Chopper @5
Michael @34 [quoting Mt.22:31-32]
JLB @ 36.

________________


I'll stand on Luke 23:43
The Lord Christ to the thief on the cross:
"Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”
That very day this thief went where Jesus went and its unreasonable to hold
that "paradise" means anything other than Heaven or that Jesus went anywhere
but straight to Heaven to be seated at the right hand of God.

Compare Paul's use of "paradise" as a clear reference to Heaven in 2 Cor. 12: 1-10 (NIV).
Paul was caught up to Heaven saw visions and received revelations and then specifically
said that he "was caught up to paradise" verse 4

Its also an unreasonable stretch to identify Paul's "third heaven" in this passage as
anything other than a reference to Heaven where God is abiding. Paul was caught
up there where he received his visions and revelations, and not caught up in
"outer space" as some have suggested in their effort to wiggle out of the fact t
hat when we die our bodies go to the grave and our souls go immediately to
be with the Lord.



_________________



I'll stand on Phil. 1:23
"I desire to depart and be with Christ which is far better."
My interpretation: I desire to die and immediately be with Christ which is far better.
Its not arguable that "depart" means "die."
Its not arguable that Paul believed that when he died he would immediately go to
be with Christ. If Paul did not believe that, then what he wrote would be nonsensical.


___________________



I'll stand on 2 Cor. 5:1- 10 (NIV)
"Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the
body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident,
I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord."
My interpretation: Absent from the body means to be immediately at home with the Lord.
Any other interpretation requires some strange exegetical wiggling .. lol ..



___________________




Some have made an argument from Mt. 17:1 -4
The argument is that clearly Moses and Elijah [who had died] were not soul sleeping.

"17 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and
led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them.
His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then
there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus."


_____________________



Some have made an argument based upon Acts 7: 54- 59
The argument is that this passage is not harmonious with the doctrine of "soul sleep"
because clearly Stephen believed that upon death his spirit would be immediately
received by the Lord Jesus. See the passage below, its quite clear what Stephen
believed and was expecting to happen.


54 When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed
their teeth at him. 55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and
saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 “Look,” he
said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

57 At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all
rushed at him, 58 dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile,
the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul.

59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”
60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.”
When he had said this, he fell asleep.


Cheers.

♫ ♪ ♫ ♪

 

[Jack Hectorman]

`
Here is a philosophical argument in support of the fact that when we
die, our soul's immediately go to Heaven to be with the Lord [and by
extension its against the notion of "soul sleep."

Time is precious and should never be wasted.

God knows time is precious and should never be wasted.

God, being who and what He is [eg. the epitome of Wisdom and Wise Planning]
would never agree to waste anything.

Time is valuable. The passing of earthly time teaches God's people very valuable
lessons because we the people of God learn very gradually in small increments
as we gain wisdom, therefore time is very valuable.

Even in Heaven time is valuable.
We will learn and grow in wisdom even in Heaven with the passing of time in Heaven.
Will there be time in Heaven? Yes! If you define time as a unit of measurement between
events. There will be events in Heaven and so there will be time in Heaven. As time
progresses in Heaven we will learn and grow in wisdom. Nobody believes that when
we Christians arrive in Heaven that we will know as much as God or have all the
wisdom we can possibly acquire. We will learn much from God and from the Lord
Christ. We arrive at Heaven's door free from all sin, but that does not mean we
arrive at Heaven's door with all the wisdom we will ever have. Heaven will not be
a stagnant non-learning experience, rather an exciting learning experience. And
that means that even in Heaven time will be valuable.

So what is the power punch of this argument? Here tis: The doctrine of "soul sleep"
is nothing more or less than a huge-enormous waste of precious time that could be used
wisely by the Sovereign God to teach His people more and more wisdom through our
experiences in Heaven after we leave this earthly body.

Philosophically, this doctrine of "Soul Sleep" has God endorsing a huge-enormous waste
of valuable time as billions of His people are sleeping unconscious and therefore wasting
hundreds of billions of hours and therefore learning and gaining zero wisdom, and not
learning anything else of value either [eg. growth in kindness and love] for what could
be a huge-enormous length of soul sleep time.

The principle of wasting time is not a good principle. This principle is unreasonable.
It is never a good thing or a good principle to waste anything.

And "soul sleep" is a huge gigantic waste of very precious and valuable time that could
have been put to beneficial use as God's people learned, over time, to be wiser and
kinder and to understand more and more the love of God.

We do not arrive at Heaven's door knowing all there is to know about love. We learn
as time goes on. But in "soul sleep" time is not "going on" for those dead asleep. We
learn, as time goes on, even after we get to Heaven so therefore its unreasonable to
waste after-death time in so-called "soul sleep."

And "soul sleep" is a dead experience void of learning anything as, and on this doctrine,
billions of God's people waste billions of hours doing nothing but sleeping.

Not good!

Cheers.

♫ ♪ ♫ ♪

 

[for_his_glory]

There is no such thing as "soul sleep" as our soul is the very essence of who we are as in our character and when we die it's only the breath/spirit that God breathed in us that made us a living soul and will immediately return back to Him until the day of Christ return and our bodies will be resurrected into that of a glorified body, which no one knows what it will look like except that we will be like that of Christ in his glorified body. Genesis 2:7; 3:19; Ecc 12:7; Matt 10:28.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Ruach, the Hebrew word for spirit here, means "breath" or "wind" as well as "spirit".

Revelation 22:
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.