dirtfarmer here

[jasonc]

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

As I have stated before, God doesn't need to see works to determine if you are saved, He looks on mans heart. It is men the need to see works that demonstrate your belief.

then why is there a command to confess that Jesus is Lord in order to be saved?

the idea of confession is often an oral one. God knows our hearts but the point you are missing that if its TRUE it will have fruits.

He who denies Me before men, shall I deny Before the Father and His angels.

so does one keep silent in this denial and only God sees it or does One actually say it and others see it?

it also works the other way, if One is truly saved One will let others Know and confess that Jesus is Lord .

 

[gr8grace3]

Hi gr8grace3 ,
I find it odd that on one side of the coin you claim I am struggling to comprehend the principals you lay out while on the other side of the coin you affirm that I do indeed understand by your earlier reply, "Exactly".

You have answered my questions, and I thank you. Often we assume we understand another's perspective when in reality we dont. Instead, we seek an opportunity to speak, and not listen. I have tried hard to make sure I was listening correctly to what you have been saying, and you affirmed this with your reply, "Exactly". It was not until this point that I asked you for an example.

1. I want to make sure I understand you correctly.
2. I want to understand how you come to your conclusions.
3. I want to find common ground.

I agree that we do not want to quench or grieve the Holy Spirit in any way, and this is where we differ.

We want to follow Jesus and scripture commands it. ( 1 John 2:16 ). We want to obey the commandments of Jesus because we love Him ( John 14:15 ). When scripture says walking as Jesus walked, I take that to imitate Him where we can. We model our lives by His example the best we can because we love and trust Him, and we understand that he is truth, and all truth is His. John 14:6 which also includes the way of Jesus aka, walking as He walked.

As diciples, I believe we claim that truth wherever we find it. Paul claims truth by pagans and it is in our canon. (Acts 17:28 , 1 Cor 15:33 , Titus 1:12 ). We see that even Pagens understand Gods most elementary truths which I believe is why Paul is able to say what he says in Romans 1:18-32. In summary, these non believers understand Gods truth and Gods ways because God has made it plain to them. But many ignore these truths and their deeds are contrary to Gods ways and they bring hell upon themselves and those around them. But not all non believers respond to the truth that way. Many are receptive to Gods ways, and the truth resonates with them.

When I look at Galatians 5 in regard to the Spirit, I believe non believers can manifest these fruits as the Spirit draws non believers to repentance as outlined in 1 Cor 4:6 and Luke 8:15 among many others.

When you say that non believers are unable to do good works, and that any good work they do such as having compassion for another and doing something to relieve that suffering because they inwardly know it's the right thing because it is written in their heart ( Jer 31:31) then I see that as the Spirit moving in them, drawing them toward God. As Christian's, we merely point this out to them.

I am cautioned in scripture to be very careful not to blaspheme the holy spirit in a way that takes the work of the Spirit and ascribes it to Satan, or evil. Mark 3:28-30

Thanks.

 

[Jim Parker]

then why is there a command to confess that Jesus is Lord in order to be saved?
the idea of confession is often an oral one. God knows our hearts but the point you are missing that if its TRUE it will have fruits.
He who denies Me before men, shall I deny Before the Father and His angels.
so does one keep silent in this denial and only God sees it or does One actually say it and others see it?
it also works the other way, if One is truly saved One will let others Know and confess that Jesus is Lord .

Also consider:
1John 3:21-24a
Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.

1Jo 5:1-3a
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.

GOOD FRUIT: the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control (Gal 5:22-23)
So, how does a person "bear good fruit"?
Be loving. Live joyfully. Live in peace. Be patient. Be kind. Do good things. Be faithful. Be gentle. Have self-control.

Is bearing good fruit important for eternal life?
EWE BETCHA!
Jhn 15:1-2 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He cuts off and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
Jhn 15:4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
Jhn 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

BAD FRUIT: the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal 5:19-21)
I don't think they need to be explained. If you are confused on any, please ask.
NOTE the bottom line: Those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
"Practice" means to habitually do, or live is such a manner.

iakov the fool

 

[Conqueror]

Are you justified by faith, after having sought Jesus as a priority? (Mat 6:33)


.

I asked for clarification.
In response, you asked a question.
That is not clarification.

It is clarification for me, for most in Christendom
haven't turned to Jesus to receive life (John 5:40).

Few find the way.


.

 

[Conqueror]

The specific will of the Father isn't found by studying, but by listening.
That is a huge problem for most in Christendom,
who have no meaningful contact with the Father
through the indwelling Holy Spirit. (John 5:39-40).

.

Most?
Have you personally conducted an investigation of a statistically significant sample of Christians and found that to be an accurate assessment at a 3 sigma level of reliability? (That would be about 670 Christians, by the way)

and:
What is an "Apostolic Canon Christian"?
Please give a specific definition.
What is an "Apostolic Canon"?
Please give a specific definition.

I cannot find "a 3 sigma level of reliability" in the scriptures

and have on numerous occasions explained
not to go BEYOND WHAT IS WRITTEN (1 Cor 4:6) ,
by sourcing only the foundational prophets and apostles (Eph 2:20, 2 Pet 3:1-2).


.

 

[gr8grace3]

So, how does a person "bear good fruit"?
Be loving. Live joyfully. Live in peace. Be patient. Be kind. Do good things. Be faithful. Be gentle. Have self-control.

Is bearing good fruit important for eternal life?
EWE BETCHA!

Pretty much every religion on this planet pushes these principles. The mormons are good to go and have eternal life? They are the epitome of your list of fruits for eternal life.

OR is there a way for Christians to produce these fruits that are DIVINE and mormons are just plumb full of HUMAN good?

 

[gr8grace3]

It is clarification for me, for most in Christendom
haven't turned to Jesus to receive life (John 5:40).

Few find the way.


.

Sorry, but that is just silly. If one is a Christian, they are in Christendom(If that is the phraseology you want to use.) We may be a babe, adolescent or mature in Christ..........but we are All in "Christendom" the moment we trust in Him.

 

[Conqueror]

It is clarification for me, for most in Christendom
haven't turned to Jesus to receive life (John 5:40).

Few find the way.


.

Sorry, but that is just silly. If one is a Christian, they are in Christendom(If that is the phraseology you want to use.) We may be a babe, adolescent or mature in Christ..........but we are All in "Christendom" the moment we trust in Him.

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life;
and these are they which testify of Me.
But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life (Jn 5:39-40).

Christendom is a collective term.
Many trust their own interpretation.


.

 

[dirtfarmer]

I believe I understand what you are railing against, and please know that I do not ascribe to that groups belief. That being said, i believe i put a little more emphasis on baptism than you may. Let me explain.

You cited Eph 2:10 earlier highlighting the words walking in the way.

Faith and belief are synonymous in the sense that one acts on what they believe, and trust is a factor. If you believe something from somebody, you have to trust what the other has said or you wont act on it. Sometimes we trust what somebody says because we even saw them live out their belief by doing what they say. My Dad used to say, "talk is cheap, now walk the talk". James puts it this way, James 2:18
English Standard Version
But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Later, James talks about demons who believe in God, but they do not have faith in God, because they do not walk in Gods ways.

What I see in scripture is this. Jesus gave us an example of how to live our lives by what he did, and what he said. His words and actions were in harmony. If we believe in Jesus, we have to trust him enough to live into our faith, even if we dont fully understand the why.

At the beginning of Jesus ministry, he submitted himself to water baptism and in his parting words to his deciples, he commanded them to baptize, and teach in that order. In other words, he gives us an example of when baptism is to occur by his own baptism and then he commands us to baptize those new in the faith.

Again, it's about following Jesus so the question of trust - faith is this. Will you follow Jesus into the baptismal waters? Second is this, will we teach what Jesus said and did, or will we teach well crafted church doctrines based on arguments of what baptism isnt?

Roman's 6 gives us a beautiful picture of being buried WITH Christ and being raised new IN Christ. This is a work of God, not man the way I understand it. Peter tells us that Baptism saves by a clean concience, so we understand that our concience will bear witness to Gods work in us, and Baptism must not be looked as a dry regulation. Rather, it is an encounter with God which raises us to new life, a life we get to live our faith into.

hello StoveBolts, dirtfarmer here

I am not sure that I agree that faith and belief are synonymous. Only faith in Christ brings salvation but belief that Jesus was the Jewish messiah does not being salvation. The Jewish messiah was to bring to an end the Roman oppression of the Jewish nation and establish a earthly kingdom; this was what the Jews believed.

My dad used to say," put your money where your mouth is".

James stated that demons believe there is only one God. If you remember the man that lived in the tombs that was possessed by demons knew who Jesus was: Matthew 8:29, " And behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with the, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before time?" So we know that demons don't have faith that Jesus was God's son, but they know full well who he is. The faith that demons have is that there is one God.
James 2:19, " Thou believest that there is one God, thou doest well; the demons also believ and tremble."

The reason that Jesus was baptized was in order to full the law. In order for him to be the " high priest" to sacrifice himself as the lamb of God he had to "wash his flesh in water" according to Leviticus 16:4.

Jesus even told the disciples to only go to the lost house of Israel while he was alive. When he made his triumphal entry into Jerusalem riding on the colt he was presenting to the nation of Israel the kingdom. If they had accepted him as their king the crucifixion would not have happened and the Church would not have been established.

In Romans 6:4 is water baptism what causes us to walk in newness of life( be a new creation), or is that being baptized by the Spirit.
It is my belief "that well crafted church doctrine" based on water baptism is what is taught rather than depending on Spirit baptism.

 

[dirtfarmer]

then why is there a command to confess that Jesus is Lord in order to be saved?

the idea of confession is often an oral one. God knows our hearts but the point you are missing that if its TRUE it will have fruits.

He who denies Me before men, shall I deny Before the Father and His angels.

so does one keep silent in this denial and only God sees it or does One actually say it and others see it?

it also works the other way, if One is truly saved One will let others Know and confess that Jesus is Lord .

hello jasonc, dirtfarmer here

While I agree with your premise, there is the life that is changed that is the witness to the world. When a person that used to "cuss" and run with the ungodly suddenly changes because of salvation, questions begin to be ask about the change in that person and their attitude.

What is the best way to confess with words or with a changed life?

 

[gr8grace3]

James stated that demons believe there is only one God. If you remember the man that lived in the tombs that was possessed by demons knew who Jesus was: Matthew 8:29, " And behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with the, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before time?" So we know that demons don't have faith that Jesus was God's son, but they know full well who he is. The faith that demons have is that there is one God.
James 2:19, " Thou believest that there is one God, thou doest well; the demons also believ and tremble."

We can expound on this a bit. Jesus became a man, and died as a man for the sins of MANKIND not for demons and fallen angels. Notice that the demon said," have you come to torment us before the time." Denoting that the fallen angels are already judged. But the execution of that judgement has not yet arrived. So we can rightly assume that the fallen angels already had their chance at salvation....Hence the elect and the fallen angels.

The Jew believes with all his heart that there is one God. But have they trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ(their Messiah) for their salvation?

 

[dirtfarmer]

We can expound on this a bit. Jesus became a man, and died as a man for the sins of MANKIND not for demons and fallen angels. Notice that the demon said," have you come to torment us before the time." Denoting that the fallen angels are already judged. But the execution of that judgement has not yet arrived. So we can rightly assume that the fallen angels already had their chance at salvation....Hence the elect and the fallen angels.

The Jew believes with all his heart that there is one God. But have they trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ(their Messiah) for their salvation?

hello gr8grace3, dirtfarmer here

It is true that that Jesus died for mankind and not demons.

I don't like to assume anything about God's creation. Since the fallen angels are spirit beings that God created, what would it take for them to have salvation? I am not sure that there is or ever was a way of salvation for them. It took the Spirit being of God's Son to be clothed with humanity and that humanity part to be separated from the Father on the cross in order to pay for humanity's debt accrued.

 

[gr8grace3]

what would it take for them to have salvation?

Grace and mercy and they(the fallen angels) rejected it......because that is what we(believing mankind) witness to them. His Grace and His Mercy. The fallen angels didn't accept it and we witness it to them.......to verify Gods righteous judgment.(by 2 or 3 witnesses/ the church is a witness)

1 Pet~~10As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.

 

[Jim Parker]

Pretty much every religion on this planet pushes these principles. The mormons are good to go and have eternal life? They are the epitome of your list of fruits for eternal life.

OR is there a way for Christians to produce these fruits that are DIVINE and mormons are just plumb full of HUMAN good?

Mormon doctrine does not fall within the definition of Christianity for several reasons.
First, because they are polytheists. They believe that there are many gods.
Second, Mormons do not believe in salvation as defined by scripture. Their doctrine teaches that by good works, any man can become a god. (And any woman can become the wife of a god.)
Mormons have a pagan view of god as being a creature who became divine through good works.
SO the purpose of good works for a Mormon is to become a god and create his own planet and people it with his own children.
The purpose of good works for a Mormon is NOT to do the will of the ONLY God in order to be a pleasing son and to be united with God as the bride of Christ and thus having eternal life.

So the Mormon definition of salvation is not Biblical.
The Mormon definition of God is not Biblical.
And the Mormon purpose of good works is not Biblical.

The do not believe in Jesus Christ the only son of God.
They believe that their god has a multitude of wives and that Jesus, like all the rest of their god's sons, was born by procreation of the "heavenly father" with one of his many wives who then gave birth to a "spirit child" which was sent to dwell in a human body.

By their belief system, they deny the Father and the Son and, therefore, they are, according to the apostle John, examples of the antichrist. (1John 2:22)

 

[gr8grace3]

Mormon doctrine does not fall within the definition of Christianity for several reasons.
First, because they are polytheists. They believe that there are many gods.
Second, Mormons do not believe in salvation as defined by scripture. Their doctrine teaches that by good works, any man can become a god. (And any woman can become the wife of a god.)
Mormons have a pagan view of god as being a creature who became divine through good works.
SO the purpose of good works for a Mormon is to become a god and create his own planet and people it with his own children.
The purpose of good works for a Mormon is NOT to do the will of the ONLY God in order to be a pleasing son and to be united with God as the bride of Christ and thus having eternal life.

So the Mormon definition of salvation is not Biblical.
The Mormon definition of God is not Biblical.
And the Mormon purpose of good works is not Biblical.

The do not believe in Jesus Christ the only son of God.
They believe that their god has a multitude of wives and that Jesus, like all the rest of their god's sons, was born by procreation of the "heavenly father" with one of his many wives who then gave birth to a "spirit child" which was sent to dwell in a human body.

By their belief system, they deny the Father and the Son and, therefore, they are, according to the apostle John, examples of the antichrist. (1John 2:22)

So their works don't matter at all right? It's about what one BELIEVES.

 

[gr8grace3]

Neither you or I cannot supply those empirical data.
Unlike you, I don't make any assumptions
about the salvation of all posters here.

I am totally dependent on Jesus as the corner stone
and the foundational prophets and apostles (Eph 2:20).

How often do I need to tell you not to make assumptions about me?


.

Do you have a bible and study the bible or do you get special revelation?

 

[gr8grace3]

Do you actually read what I write .

Yes.

or do you only make assumptions about me? .

No

This forum exists to discuss theology, not me.

And theology comes from the bible. His written word to us. And the study of His written word to us.

And you told me that the will of God doesn't come from study.........but listening. Studying is listening.

So do you study and have a bible so we can discuss His mind?

.[/QUOTE]

 

[Jim Parker]

So their works don't matter at all right? It's about what one BELIEVES.

Both faith and works are required for eternal life.

Any good work done because it is the right thing to do makes the work a good work.

But a good work done "for credit" will not "earn" eternal life.
Eternal live can only be realized in Christ.
It is necessary to be united to Christ to have eternal life.
You canot be united to the Jesus Christ revealed in the Bible if you accept Mormon doctrine that Jesus was a man (a created being) who became one more of a multitude of gods. (a divine being.)

 

[Conqueror]

Both faith and works are required for eternal life.

Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers (false apostles)
also transform themselves into ministers of DOING WHAT IS RIGHT,
whose end will be according to their WORKS (2 Cor 11:13-15).

I am aware that James preached a gospel of works
and that his disciples even managed to lead the apostle Peter astray (Gal 2:12).




.

 

[ezrider]

The specific will of the Father isn't found by studying, but by listening.
That is a huge problem for most in Christendom,
who have no meaningful contact with the Father
through the indwelling Holy Spirit. (John 5:39-40).

This was your reply to gr8grace3...

Are you able to refute me?

Making accusations that I am all over the place is an admission
that you may NOT know how you ought to answer each one (Col 4:6).

I will be honest and say that I have grown frustrated recently with participation in this forum, and I can see your frustration. If you already know that they don't understand how to answer, then how do you get them to become interested in actually seeking that answer when they are comfortable in their own beliefs?

How do you get them to understand that Faith doesn't lead you to the cross, but rather leads you on forward from the cross? How do you present the case so they begin to understand that their reliance on the written word for their relationship with the Lord is no different than that of the Pharisees and is akin to the children of Israel's rejection of the Spirit of the Lord insisting they will be obedient to the word given Moses instead.

When many Christians appear to be more interested in learning about or discussing the law and sin, the antichrist, the man of sin, the beast.... or are more preoccupied with debating the first works such as baptisms and the resurrection from the dead; How do you begin to get them to listen to the Spirit of the Lord reveal unto them the Righteousness of Christ when they already presume to know him?