dirtfarmer here

[Walpole]

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust,
that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh
but made alive by the Spirit (1 Pet 3:18 NKJV).

The narrative dictates that being made alive by the Spirit precedes baptism.

.

Water and the spirit is what makes a baptism...

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5)

 

[Walpole]

Noah was already righteous before the deluge (Gen 6:9).
like the born-again were already justified by faith before their baptism.

Roman Catholics oppose that.


.

The deluge prefigured baptism, just like Moses' followers at the Red Sea. (1 Cor 10:2)

In salvation history, the reality always surpasses the type / figure.

And FYI, being born again = being baptized (John 3:5)

 

[Conqueror]

Noah was already righteous before the deluge (Gen 6:9).
like the born-again were already justified by faith before their baptism.

The deluge prefigured baptism, just like Moses' followers at the Red Sea. (1 Cor 10:2)

In salvation history, the reality always surpasses the type / figure.

And FYI, being born again = being baptized (John 3:5)

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you,
unless one is born of water and the Spirit,
he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
That (reference to context; born of WATER)
which is born of the flesh is flesh,
and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (John 3:5-6 NKJV).



.

 

[Conqueror]

And FYI, being born again = being baptized (John 3:5)

I do not accept interpretations, which fail to make sense.

Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you,
unless one is born of water and the Spirit,
he cannot enter the kingdom of God (John 3:4–5 NKJV).

Jesus addresses Nicodemus' question by saying;
unless is born (passive verb) of (birth) water,
he cannot enter the kingdom of God
for he cannot return to his mother’s womb
and passively being born of the Spirit is a requirement.

That should deal with that absurd concept of baptism
"for the remission of sin" in ritualistic churches
and "receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit",
as a consequence of the action of baptism (Acts 2:38).




.

 

[stovebolts]

Hello Walpole and Conqueror ,
Welcome to community.
I hope that each of you have taken the time to read the welcome message you received when you registered. The same message can be found toward the top of the forum list named, Community Message.

It appears both of you are familiar with online debate and are seasoned in the art of debate. We here at Christianforums.net do not wish to be known as a debate forum, and it is frowned on. Instead, we desire to be a discussion based forum with the desire to show unity within the Christian faith.

We invite you do join us in our ministry, but if your purpose for joining was to debate, then I would ask both of you to find another online community where debate and division is the norm.

We have an established community here that is showing the world we can be United in our differences. That means we respect our brother, and we correct in truth and love knowing arguments only cause strife and division but love covers a multitude of sins, and our savior said the world would know we are his disciples by the love we have for one another.

 

[Walpole]

Hello Walpole and Conqueror ,
Welcome to community.
I hope that each of you have taken the time to read the welcome message you received when you registered. The same message can be found toward the top of the forum list named, Community Message.

It appears both of you are familiar with online debate and are seasoned in the art of debate. We here at Christianforums.net do not wish to be known as a debate forum, and it is frowned on. Instead, we desire to be a discussion based forum with the desire to show unity within the Christian faith.

We invite you do join us in our ministry, but if your purpose for joining was to debate, then I would ask both of you to find another online community where debate and division is the norm.

We have an established community here that is showing the world we can be United in our differences. That means we respect our brother, and we correct in truth and love knowing arguments only cause strife and division but love covers a multitude of sins, and our savior said the world would know we are his disciples by the love we have for one another.

Thanks for the warm welcome. The discussion between Conqueror and I is not outside of the typical discussion in this forum as well as in this very thread.

 

[gr8grace3]

It is fellowship that can be hindered.

That is a well hidden fact in satans world.

 

[stovebolts]

Thanks for the warm welcome. The discussion between Conqueror and I is not outside of the typical discussion in this forum as well as in this very thread.

We are attempting to create an environment of growth and unity. As this forum attest, we are still a work in progress. As a new member and guest in our community, your cooperation is requested.

 

[Walpole]

I do not accept interpretations, which fail to make sense.

Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you,
unless one is born of water and the Spirit,
he cannot enter the kingdom of God (John 3:4–5 NKJV).

Jesus addresses Nicodemus' question by saying;
unless is born (passive verb) of (birth) water,
he cannot enter the kingdom of God
for he cannot return to his mother’s womb
and passively being born of the Spirit is a requirement.

That should deal with that absurd concept of baptism
"for the remission of sin" in ritualistic churches
and "receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit",
as a consequence of the action of baptism (Acts 2:38).




.

Verse 5 is our Blessed Lord's answer to Nicodemus' question as to how man can be born again. Jesus says two things are required for man to be born again. Here is the scene using the KJV...

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"

---> Here Jesus now explains exactly how man is born again in John 3:5: Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

John 3:7 "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."


Jesus is explicit that two things are required for a man to be born again and thus enter the Kingdom of God: Water and the Spirit.


Furthermore, the water Jesus speaks of does not refer to natural birth, for nowhere in Scripture or in antiquity is water ever a synonym for birth. For man is not birthed / born from water, but rather from a mother; that is, a person. Water is thus not the origin of man's natural birth and Scripture never refers to it as such.

Hence to be born again of water and of the spirit = baptism

 

[Walpole]

We are attempting to create an environment of growth and unity. As this forum attest, we are still a work in progress. As a new member and guest in our community, your cooperation is requested.

I hope to contribute to the environment of growth and unity. And I too am a work in progress so I should fit right in!

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here,

The thing that most don't understand is Noah was saved by the "ark". The water is a type of judgment, but because Noah found grace and for 120 years worked on God's ark , which is a type for Jesus, he was saved, above the judgment in the ark.

Even Moses was never covered with water as he crossed the Red Sea, but walked across on dry land. There are two amazing things that happened at the Red Sea.
1. The water stood upon it's self and opened up for the Israelites. It had to be a vast opening for over a million to cross in a day
2. There was no mud in the path that they walked over.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Verse 5 is our Blessed Lord's answer to Nicodemus' question as to how man can be born again. Jesus says two things are required for man to be born again. Here is the scene using the KJV...

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"

---> Here Jesus now explains exactly how man is born again in John 3:5: Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

John 3:7 "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."


Jesus is explicit that two things are required for a man to be born again and thus enter the Kingdom of God: Water and the Spirit.


Furthermore, the water Jesus speaks of does not refer to natural birth, for nowhere in Scripture or in antiquity is water ever a synonym for birth. For man is not birthed / born from water, but rather from a mother; that is, a person. Water is thus not the origin of man's natural birth and Scripture never refers to it as such.

Hence to be born again of water and of the spirit = baptism

hello Walpole, dirtfarmer here

There is scripture that speaks of the washing of water by the word, so could it be that the water in John 3 is the word?

 

[Walpole]

dirtfarmer here,

The thing that most don't understand is Noah was saved by the "ark". The water is a type of judgment, but because Noah found grace and for 120 years worked on God's ark , which is a type for Jesus, he was saved, above the judgment in the ark.

Even Moses was never covered with water as he crossed the Red Sea, but walked across on dry land. There are two amazing things that happened at the Red Sea.
1. The water stood upon it's self and opened up for the Israelites. It had to be a vast opening for over a million to cross in a day
2. There was no mud in the path that they walked over.

Water in salvation history brings both death and life. It represents the destruction of the old (former ways) and recreates something new. The waters of the deluge washed the sinners away, and through it something new was created. Thus St. Peter tells us Noah and the other seven were saved through water.

St. Paul tells us Moses and the Israelites were baptized "...in the cloud and in the sea" (cf. 1 Cor 10:2). As with the deluge, water brought forth death and life. What the Jews call the miracle of the parting of the Sea, St. Paul calls a baptism. This is a type of Christian baptism, with the cloud representing the spirit and the sea representing the living waters of baptism.

 

[Walpole]

hello Walpole, dirtfarmer here

There is scripture that speaks of the washing of water by the word, so could it be that the water in John 3 is the word?

Most commentaries state the "washing of the water by the word" in Ephesians 5:26 is speaking of baptism.

---> https://www.studylight.org/commentary/ephesians/5-26.html


St. Paul uses similar language when speaking to Titus about baptism. (Titus 3:5)

 

[Conqueror]

I do not accept interpretations, which fail to make sense.

Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you,
unless one is born of water and the Spirit,
he cannot enter the kingdom of God (John 3:4–5 NKJV).

Jesus addresses Nicodemus' question by saying;
unless is born (passive verb) of (birth) water,
he cannot enter the kingdom of God
for he cannot return to his mother’s womb
and passively being born of the Spirit is a requirement.

That should deal with that absurd concept of baptism
"for the remission of sin" in ritualistic churches
and "receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit",
as a consequence of the action of baptism (Acts 2:38).




.

............... man is not birthed / born from water, .............

The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it,
but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes.
So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (John 3:8 NKJV).

But that doesn't stop people in ritualistic churches
from precisely determining the point of action of the Holy Spirit.


.

 

[Razeontherock]

"Works is not a dirty word" - StoveBolts


I like that! I think the Church today needs to hear that.

 

[Razeontherock]

hello StoveBolts, dirtfarmer here

What was John told: You baptize with water but there is one that is greater than you and he will baptize with the Spirit. It is my belief that all water baptism does is gets a person wet.

I understand that most are going to disagree with that statement.

It all comes down to this: Does a person receive salvation the moment that the Spirit places them into the body of Christ? When does the Spirit place a person into the body of Christ? the moment they believe or the moment they are water baptized?

There is no room for discussion. Water baptism cannot place you into the body of Christ. It takes the baptism of the Spirit to place you into the body of Christ and that happens the moment that you believe that Christ died in your place.

You say there is no room for discussion, but Lutheran's teach that the Spirit places you into the Body when you're Baptized. Their system of belief makes sense because you would not get Baptized if you didn't believe, and taking the action involves not merely your mind but your BODY. (I don't know if they define it as a "work," or no)

So obviously there really IS room for discussion, with the possibility of seeing this different ways, all in the Body of Christ.

I'm not a Lutheran, but up here in WI there are a LOT of them, so I really need to get where they're coming from

 

[stovebolts]

You say there is no room for discussion, but Lutheran's teach that the Spirit places you into the Body when you're Baptized. Their system of belief makes sense because you would not get Baptized if you didn't believe, and taking the action involves not merely your mind but your BODY. (I don't know if they definitely it as a "work," or no)

So obviously there really IS room for discussion, with the possibility of seeing this different ways, all in the Body of Christ.

I'm not a Lutheran, but up here in WI there are a LOT of them, so I really need to get where they're coming from

I've been a member of the church of Christ for 20 years, and I can tell you that there are those in my own congregation that turn baptism into a work of man, and I think that's what dirtfarmer and others rail against, rightfully so.

One of the pitfalls to debate is it pursues extreem ends of the spectrum instead of seeking truth. Just as those who say baptism saves (and those not baptized are hell bound) are wrong with their extreem views, those who dismiss water baptism as just getting wet are also wrong and the truth is found comfortably in the middle.

My studies have shown that it is much like a marriage vow, or the rite that consumates the new covenant where we are United in Christ.

In the years I've been around, folk are really good at saying what baptism is not, but in doing so they never actually discover what it is, and its purpose.

 

[Walpole]

You say there is no room for discussion, but Lutheran's teach that the Spirit places you into the Body when you're Baptized. Their system of belief makes sense because you would not get Baptized if you didn't believe, and taking the action involves not merely your mind but your BODY. (I don't know if they define it as a "work," or no)

So obviously there really IS room for discussion, with the possibility of seeing this different ways, all in the Body of Christ.

I'm not a Lutheran, but up here in WI there are a LOT of them, so I really need to get where they're coming from

Until the advent of the anabaptists in the 16th century, ALL Christians believed that baptism makes you a Christian and thus places you in the Body...

"For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit." (1 Cor 12:13)

 

[Razeontherock]

I've been a member of the church of Christ for 20 years, and I can tell you that there are those in my own congregation that turn baptism into a work of man, and I think that's what dirtfarmer and others rail against, rightfully so.

One of the pitfalls to debate is it pursues extreem ends of the spectrum instead of seeking truth. Just as those who say baptism saves (and those not baptized are hell bound) are wrong with their extreem views, those who dismiss water baptism as just getting wet are also wrong and the truth is found comfortably in the middle.

My studies have shown that it is much like a marriage vow, or the rite that consumates the new covenant where we are United in Christ.

In the years I've been around, folk are really good at saying what baptism is not, but in doing so they never actually discover what it is, and its purpose.

Well here are some thoughts that may help expose the common ground we share re: Baptism:

Is it possible to get Baptized, without sufficient teaching or understanding to know what's happening, such that all that's happening is you're getting wet?

Is Baptism efficacious? (I don't particularly like using theological terms, but I suspect everyone here can address this and I'm not excluding anyone from participating)

And if Baptism is efficacious, what effect does it have? (This is the part where folks will continue to diverge the most, and we should respect one another's differences)

I will readily admit I do not have these answers, and I can laugh at myself about that! I mean, with all the intense revelations God has given me, why have I never sought Him on this? It's so basic! What I can say is when I got Baptized as a young adult, I deeply wanted to stay submerged longer, facing death and the tempter directly, and having it out then and there. And only recently have I learned that the Orthodox practice is to be submerged 3x, in succession