Bible Study Divorce/ Old and New Testaments

[Deborah13]

One thing that is often mentioned when talking about divorce and remarriage is what to do in the cases of someone who has been divorced, possibly multiple times, before they are saved. I have thought about that a bit, since I know people in that situation. Maybe this analogy can explain my view on it.

Imagine a man who is not an American and who has never come to America. For the sake of argument, let's suppose he's from Germany. While they are similar, German laws and American laws are not exactly the same. What if this man does something that is legal in Germany, but illegal in the US and some time after that decides to move to America. What do you do about his former "violation"? The answer is simple - nothing. It was legal for him when he did it, so it's not an issue. But after he moves to the US, he has to be careful not to do it again, because it's illegal there.

American laws are for Americans, German laws are for Germans and God's laws are for God's people. If the laws of the land (whatever land that may be) say that divorce is legal for any reason, and an unsaved couple get a divorce, then it's legal for them to do that. If the law allows them to marry someone else and they do, then that's legal also. But what do we do about it if one or both of them decide to "move to" God's Kingdom (i.e. get saved)? The answer is again simple - nothing. It was legal according to the laws of the world when they were in the world, so there was no violation. But once they are no longer in the world but in God's Kingdom, they should follow God's Laws. It is my opinion that when people in that situation get saved, their current marriage should be considered as if it were their first. God has forgiven them of all their sins, including anything that had to do with their previous marriages and divorces. And if He has forgiven them, who are we to hold it against them?

The TOG​

I agree with you TOG.
The problem I see is that some teachings say that the blood of our Lord didn't wash away all their sin. It seems that He only partially restored them, they are only partially washed, they are the second class citizens in the Christian Body. They are damaged goods and not marrying material for another Christian. So they are forever to be alone as they can't be unevenly yoked to an unbeliever. They are walking around with the mark of Cain on their foreheads. No we are not allowed to actually kill you but killing you softly is OK. Personally, I have never been in a church where this kind of thing is taught. But I have read the testimonies of suffering people, male and female alike.

I have read the testimonies of people who have been taught and read the articles written by those who teach divorcing the newer husband and returning to the previous husband (even if he is still unbeliever) and actually had a pastor tell me that was Biblical. This was a pastor who went to seminary and had a degree in psychology from that seminary and did marriage and family counseling.
I believed him until I found the scripture in Deut. 24. Which clearly says that is not true and the NT does not address it at all, that I can determine.
Thus this thread, what does the Bible really say about divorce both in the OT and the NT.
I believe as Josh does that the Lord has not changed in His wisdom and commands about marriage, divorce, and remarriage.
I'm really glad you are here. You love the OT and appreciate the significance that it has in understanding many things in the NT.

 

[Lewis]

I have seven hundred wives and I am divorcing them all' I am getting old it is not like I can't afford them' I just can't take all the gossiping and being fought over anymore.

I'm in trouble' they just told me they want child support for all 2000 kids and that they want all of my mansions. What am I to do ?:blush:mad

 

[Deborah13]

Jethro Bodine - In the Deuteronomy thread, you said:



That's not exactly what Jesus said.

But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. (Matt. 5:32 ESV)
​

If there was a valid reason for the divorce, then it isn't adultery if she remarries. And there's nothing that says that the sexual immorality that was the reason for the divorce necessarily has to have been on the part of the woman. A woman was allowed to divorce her husband if he was unfaithful.

And he said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her, and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.” (Mark 10:11-12 ESV)
​

Not also that it's not just the woman who commits adultery if the divorce wasn't valid, but also the man.

Jesus is not making a new law here. He is giving us the correct interpretation of the verses in Deuteronomy. They are still fully applicable to Christians today in the way Christ interpreted them.

The TOG​

So can we say then that this implies that if a divorce is a legal divorce that the spouses have the right to remarry?
If so, then that explains the allowance that was made in Deut. 24, where the woman put away was free to marry someone else and because that divorce was considered to be legal? Because Moses allowed divorce for other reasons beside sexual immorality, because of the hardness of men's hearts to their wives. 'just cause'
In the OT, a man gave his wife a Writ of Divorcement. She had no choice and it was Legal.
I think we tend to say things like well in God's eyes it wasn't really legal. Yes, it was legal. Was that what God desired, no. But He clearly allowed it through His mediator of that covenant, Moses and made remarriage available to the wronged spouse. This wronged spouse was allowed to marry anyone she chose and who chose her, within the Hebrew people. And if the new spouse were to die she could marry again among the Hebrew people.

 

[TOG]

I'm in trouble' they just told me they want child support for all 2000 kids and that they want all of my mansions. What am I to do ?:blush:mad

At least Solomon never had any trouble remembering his anniversary. It was every day. The problem was remembering which wife shared that particular day with him.

The TOG​

 

[reba]

Solomon was stupid

 

[TOG]

So can we say then that this implies that if a divorce is a legal divorce that the spouses have the right to remarry?
If so, then that explains the allowance that was made in Deut. 24, where the woman put away was free to marry someone else and because that divorce was considered to be legal?

That's how I understand it.

Because Moses allowed divorce for other reasons beside sexual immorality, because of the hardness of men's hearts to their wives. 'just cause'

That's debatable. The only thing we have written (Moses may have said something more) is what is in Deuteronomy 24. And, as I said in the Deuteronomy thread, people don't agree on what that meant. Some believed it meant only for sexual sin, while others believed it meant for any reason at all. I believe Jesus was telling us the original intent when he said it was to be only because of sexual immorality.

In the OT, a man gave his wife a Writ of Divorcement. She had no choice and it was Legal.
I think we tend to say things like well in God's eyes it wasn't really legal. Yes, it was legal. Was that what God desired, no. But He clearly allowed it through His mediator of that covenant, Moses and made remarriage available to the wronged spouse. This wronged spouse was allowed to marry anyone she chose and who chose her, within the Hebrew people. And if the new spouse were to die she could marry again among the Hebrew people.

That's right, and we would do well to remember that. People shouldn't be punished for the rest of their lives just because they're divorced, especially when the divorce wasn't even their fault.

The TOG​

 

[jasonc]

Solomon was stupid

common male problem , thinking with the wrong organ.

 

[reba]

So can we say then that this implies that if a divorce is a legal divorce that the spouses have the right to remarry?
If so, then that explains the allowance that was made in Deut. 24, where the woman put away was free to marry someone else and because that divorce was considered to be legal? Because Moses allowed divorce for other reasons beside sexual immorality, because of the hardness of men's hearts to their wives. 'just cause'
In the OT, a man gave his wife a Writ of Divorcement. She had no choice and it was Legal.
I think we tend to say things like well in God's eyes it wasn't really legal. Yes, it was legal. Was that what God desired, no. But He clearly allowed it through His mediator of that covenant, Moses and made remarriage available to the wronged spouse. This wronged spouse was allowed to marry anyone she chose and who chose her, within the Hebrew people. And if the new spouse were to die she could marry again among the Hebrew people.

clarification? when you say legal you are speaking God's legal not mans?

 

[TOG]

Solomon was stupid

And as if 700 wives weren't enough, he also had 300 concubines. "Stupid" sounds like a pretty good description. There are some verses in Deuteronomy and Matthew that relate to this in a rather interesting way.

When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, take possession of it, live in it, and say, ‘I will set a king over me like all the nations around me,’ you are to appoint over you the king the Lord your God chooses. Appoint a king from your brothers. You are not to set a foreigner over you, or one who is not of your people. However, he must not acquire many horses for himself or send the people back to Egypt to acquire many horses, for the Lord has told you, ‘You are never to go back that way again.’ He must not acquire many wives for himself so that his heart won’t go astray. He must not acquire very large amounts of silver and gold for himself. When he is seated on his royal throne, he is to write a copy of this instruction for himself on a scroll in the presence of the Levitical priests. (Deu. 17:14-18 HCSB)

For I assure you: Until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or one stroke of a letter will pass from the law until all things are accomplished. (Matt. 5:18 HCSB)
​

The word "instruction" in the Deuteronomy section is a translation of the Hebrew word "Torah", usually translated as "Law". The king was to make a copy of the Torah for himself and it was to be in the presence of the priests to make sure it was done correctly. There is a legend that says that when King Solomon was doing this, he managed to distract the priests while he copied this particular section, and then changed a single letter. Solomon's copy allegedly didn't say "He must not acquire many wives" but rather "He did not acquire many wives". The difference in Hebrew is only one letter. But he was able to use that one letter to justify his lifestyle.

Are we any better today? We have not only changed a letter here and there, but have totally ignored huge portions of the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, to justify the things we do.

The TOG​

 

[for_his_glory]

Even with the laws God gave to Moses for the people, mans sin hardened hearts now turned to fornication, lust of self and covertness of others property including another mans wife. New laws were added continuously for the transgressions of man and this is how we got the law for divorce which was handed down by Moses in Deuteronomy 24:1-4.

1 Corinthians 7:10, Jesus commands the woman not to leave her husband and if she does she should remain unmarried, but in Malachi 2:10-16 the treachery that man commits against a woman which leads him to have an affair outside of the marriage or abuses the wife whether it be physical or emotional gives place to what was said by Moses in Deuteronomy 24:1-4 that if a woman is no longer pleasing to her husband then the husband should give his wife a written bill of divorcement and send her out of the house and this gives the woman the right to marry again, but she can never go back to her former husband if that marriage does not work out or her husband dies for now she is defiled to be with her first husband and this is an abomination to God.

For a good marriage to work one should study 2 Corinthians 6:14 be ye not unequally yoked together with non-believers for what fellowship hath righteous with unrighteous, and what communion has light with darkness. If you are a believer in Jesus Christ then you need to choose a mate that also believes in the faith of Christ. In some marriages people do not enter into a relationship with Christ being the center of it, but maybe one of them come to know the Lord and the other one refuses to have that personal relationship with Christ then we go back to what 1 Corinthians 7:12-16 says. If the unbelieving partner leaves the believing partner then this frees the believing partner from the bondage of the vows of marriage and they are free to marry again.

 

[Deborah13]

Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

For some reason many people, including me at one time, read this verse this way.
Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit fornication: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth fornication.

fornication = porneia = sexual immorality

Now what is adultery in the Hebrew, which is the definition they would have been discussing.
H5003 = apostatize = to break faith with

Exo 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. (H5003)
Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery (H5003) I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

My understanding of Exodus would be, breaking faith with the covenant of marriage, a precious promise contract that one has entered into, sealed with a vow.
In Jeremiah I see the same thing. Only they were breaking faith with the covenant that they had made with God and that they had made a vow to live by.

 

[Deborah13]

That's how I understand it.

That's debatable. The only thing we have written (Moses may have said something more) is what is in Deuteronomy 24. And, as I said in the Deuteronomy thread, people don't agree on what that meant. Some believed it meant only for sexual sin, while others believed it meant for any reason at all. I believe Jesus was telling us the original intent when he said it was to be only because of sexual immorality. The TOG

I agree TOG, Jesus did give them the true intent and desire of God about the whole subject.
However, Jesus also said in regards to the OT law, given by Moses.....
Mar 10:2 And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him.
Mar 10:3 And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?
Mar 10:4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.
Mar 10:5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.

What is a precept?
G1785 =
From G1781; injunction, that is, an authoritative prescription: - commandment, precept.

What Moses said as God's mediator of that covenant was authoritative.
imo,
Jesus is the Mediator of the new covenant but He also gave authority as types of mediators, to the Apostles in His name. I see this when He tells them, that whatever they loose or bind on earth it shall be loosed or bound in heaven.

​

 

[Deborah13]

clarification? when you say legal you are speaking God's legal not mans?

God's legal always. Maybe post #32 will help to explain my understanding of Moses authority being legal because God gave it to him.

 

[Deborah13]

In some marriages people do not enter into a relationship with Christ being the center of it, but maybe one of them come to know the Lord and the other one refuses to have that personal relationship with Christ then we go back to what 1 Corinthians 7:12-16 says. If the unbelieving partner leaves the believing partner then this frees the believing partner from the bondage of the vows of marriage and they are free to marry again.

The Jews have a problem with this, they should read the NT, Paul solved the problem of desertion.

"A peculiar problem arises, however, if a man disappears or deserts his wife or is presumed dead but there is insufficient proof of death. Under Jewish law, divorce can only be initiated by the man; thus, if the husband cannot be found, he cannot be compelled to divorce the wife and she cannot marry another man. A woman in this situation is referred to as agunah (literally, anchored). The rabbis agonized over this problem, balancing the need to allow the woman to remarry with the risk of an adulterous marriage (a grave transgression that would affect the status of offspring of the marriage) if the husband reappeared. No definitive solution to this problem exists."
http://www.jewfaq.org/divorce.htm#Process

 

[TOG]

Both the Old and New Testaments tell believers not to marry unbelievers. There's a good reason for that. I've seen marriages like that, and they usually don't work out real well.

The TOG​

 

[jasonc]

Both the Old and New Testaments tell believers not to marry unbelievers. There's a good reason for that. I've seen marriages like that, and they usually don't work out real well.

The TOG​

living it.

 

[TOG]

living it.

Sorry to hear that. I pray she gets saved.

The TOG​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That's not exactly what Jesus said.

But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. (Matt. 5:32 ESV)
​

If there was a valid reason for the divorce, then it isn't adultery if she remarries.

I'm, aware of that. I',m talking about the 'just because I wanna' divorce. In this New Covenant you make yourself and your ex-spouse unclean by causing remarriage, that is, adultery, when adultery was not the reason of the divorce.

In the OT men could marry before, during, and after a relationship with any one woman. Woman are the ones who could not have multiple spouses, not men. The point being, what's the difference for the OT man between remarrying after a divorce and simply choosing another spouse? None, of course. In the first covenant it is the woman who becomes unclean by remarriage, not the man. Not so in this New Covenant.

And there's nothing that says that the sexual immorality that was the reason for the divorce necessarily has to have been on the part of the woman. A woman was allowed to divorce her husband if he was unfaithful.

And he said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her, and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.” (Mark 10:11-12 ESV)​

True with the introduction of the New Covenant, not true during the time of multiple wives. Not true in that it was not held against the man who simply was marrying another woman.

​

Not also that it's not just the woman who commits adultery if the divorce wasn't valid, but also the man.

In this New Covenant, without a doubt.

In this New Covenant I don't see remarriage as being not allowed for both partners after a marriage is destroyed through adultery. But I do see no marriage allowed for the 'just because' divorce. In fact, Paul says the woman who does that should stay unmarried or go back to her spouse. This is assuming, of course, that the man has not moved on to another relationship, and that he would even want her back.

Jesus is not making a new law here. He is giving us the correct interpretation of the verses in Deuteronomy. They are still fully applicable to Christians today in the way Christ interpreted them.

I don't know how he's not making a new law. It's clear in the NT that Moses made allowance for 'just because' divorce. Head Rabbi Jesus nullified Rabbi Moses' judgment and reinstated God intention for marriage. It's impossible that Jesus is saying what Deuteronomy says, that a person can divorce just because they want to.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So can we say then that this implies that if a divorce is a legal divorce that the spouses have the right to remarry?
If so, then that explains the allowance that was made in Deut. 24, where the woman put away was free to marry someone else and because that divorce was considered to be legal? Because Moses allowed divorce for other reasons beside sexual immorality, because of the hardness of men's hearts to their wives. 'just cause'
In the OT, a man gave his wife a Writ of Divorcement. She had no choice and it was Legal.
I think we tend to say things like well in God's eyes it wasn't really legal. Yes, it was legal. Was that what God desired, no. But He clearly allowed it through His mediator of that covenant, Moses and made remarriage available to the wronged spouse. This wronged spouse was allowed to marry anyone she chose and who chose her, within the Hebrew people. And if the new spouse were to die she could marry again among the Hebrew people.

I don't have any problem with this that I can see.

I would just say that 'legal' did not mean good, or correct....just that it was allowed.

The problem I see in Deuteronomy is not necessarily the divorce, but the coming back to a marriage after you have already remarried. And, IMO, it's a mistake to focus in on the passage for the sake of it's literal consideration, though it served that capacity for the first covenant people of God. It's a law--like so many other laws--instituted by God that establishes the sure condemnation of the Jews whom God divorced. Technically, there is no way back for them. By law they are not allowed to come back. But God finds a way to do that anyway. Just another example of how God overcomes the sure condemnation of the law through the wisdom and power and love of the cross.

 

[reba]

living it.

me too